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Brad Stevens Thread – Finding The Way

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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#121 » by Jammer » Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:47 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:
hugepatsfan wrote:
fallguy wrote:...

So around the deadline Brad "overpaid" in picks for White and salary for Theis. ...


Agree on the salary for Theis.

Don't agree on White because they were also dumping Romeo Langford's $5.4 Million salary for next season.

So, that had a price. Say a 1rst Round Pick (expected around #25).

White appeared to be better than Richardson. That had a price. Cost the Pick Swap.

I'd say it was a fair trade if you view taking on Langford's remaining 2022 salary and paying him for next season as a cost that San Antonio wanted reimbursed.
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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#122 » by Fencer reregistered » Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:47 pm

Jammer wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
hugepatsfan wrote:


Agree on the salary for Theis.

Don't agree on White because they were also dumping Romeo Langford's $5.4 Million salary for next season.

So, that had a price. Say a 1rst Round Pick (expected around #25).

White appeared to be better than Richardson. That had a price. Cost the Pick Swap.

I'd say it was a fair trade if you view taking on Langford's remaining 2022 salary and paying him for next season as a cost that San Antonio wanted reimbursed.


I don't think that Romeo was so far gone that one needed to pay to dump him. True, he didn't play much in San Antonio. But then, being Romeo, he managed to get listed with at least two different injuries in his short time there.
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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#123 » by zoyathedestroya » Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:35 am

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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#124 » by Parliament10 » Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:29 pm

Brad Stevens has done well.
Starting with what Danny Ainge Acquired, and improving upon that.
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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#125 » by Mr_Mojo_Risin » Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:27 pm

Parliament10 wrote:Brad Stevens has done well.
Starting with what Danny Ainge Acquired, and improving upon that.

Yep, it's been the perfect progression at the right time.

Danny did extremely well to get the picks and acquire a wealth of talent with good character. He did seem to lose his way or come to a dead end about what he could deliver us going forward, just as Brad did on the coaching side. Sometimes that is a reality and doesn't denigrate the wonderful job they did to that point.

It's been inspired for Danny to move on (while respecting the amazing base he left us) and Brad move into the GM position.

Brad being an excellent coach himself and knowing the players so well was in prime position to choose the next coach then supplement the roster to fit Ime's schemes putting the icing on the cake.

We may or may not win the chip, but when you consider where we were at the end of last season it's been a master class by the organisation and all individuals involved (including players) of ego-less pragmatic decision making.
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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#126 » by Slax » Thu Apr 28, 2022 6:26 pm

I'm going to eat some big time crow right now - I've done it elsewhere, but don't think I've done it here. Over the offseason, I said our best long term strategy was to keep everyone on short term contracts to make sure we have flexibility to be a player in free agency this offseason. I wasn't upset when Brad extended Smart and Rob and Josh, and I thought the value he got was good, but it wasn't the path I personally would have taken at the time.

I was obviously 100% wrong. Brad showed faith in the players he had, and as a result a) everyone is playing super hard and unselfish basketball, and b) we have multiple players here long term being well underpaid, which actually gives us MORE flexibility in the future.

Nobody should listen to me. I'm an idiot. And I'm glad I'm wrong.
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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#127 » by fallguy » Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:40 pm

It's early but I'm ready to start talking about the Grant Williams extension talks.
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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#128 » by Fencer reregistered » Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:01 pm

fallguy wrote:It's early but I'm ready to start talking about the Grant Williams extension talks.


Please hold off for a couple weeks until we see how effectively he defends against Giannis.
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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#129 » by playa-hater » Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:28 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:
fallguy wrote:It's early but I'm ready to start talking about the Grant Williams extension talks.


Please hold off for a couple weeks until we see how effectively he defends against Giannis.


I agree with "holding off a couple of weeks" with Grant, but not based on how he does against Giannis. Giannis can kill anyone not named Semi.. I expect Grant will be at least a good defender. MOST important for me is his knocking down his 3 point shots. Grant was huge in that regard in the Net series. Tatum will be heavily guarded again. Smart and hopefully D White will hit some, but neither is deadly from 3. Horford has shot well. PP shoots great but plays 12 or so minutes. So Grant really needs to hit those corner 3s or else Tatum will be clogged up plenty.

If Grant plays good defense and hits at a high clip from 3, then pay the man.
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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#130 » by zoyathedestroya » Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:22 pm

Slax wrote:I'm going to eat some big time crow right now - I've done it elsewhere, but don't think I've done it here. Over the offseason, I said our best long term strategy was to keep everyone on short term contracts to make sure we have flexibility to be a player in free agency this offseason. I wasn't upset when Brad extended Smart and Rob and Josh, and I thought the value he got was good, but it wasn't the path I personally would have taken at the time.

I was obviously 100% wrong. Brad showed faith in the players he had, and as a result a) everyone is playing super hard and unselfish basketball, and b) we have multiple players here long term being well underpaid, which actually gives us MORE flexibility in the future.

Nobody should listen to me. I'm an idiot. And I'm glad I'm wrong.

Same! All of the above. Except the part about eating crow, being 100% wrong, and being an idiot. I'm always, always in the right whose opinions (and memes) should never be questioned.
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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#131 » by 3D Chess » Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:00 am

zoyathedestroya wrote:
Slax wrote:I'm going to eat some big time crow right now - I've done it elsewhere, but don't think I've done it here. Over the offseason, I said our best long term strategy was to keep everyone on short term contracts to make sure we have flexibility to be a player in free agency this offseason. I wasn't upset when Brad extended Smart and Rob and Josh, and I thought the value he got was good, but it wasn't the path I personally would have taken at the time.

I was obviously 100% wrong. Brad showed faith in the players he had, and as a result a) everyone is playing super hard and unselfish basketball, and b) we have multiple players here long term being well underpaid, which actually gives us MORE flexibility in the future.

Nobody should listen to me. I'm an idiot. And I'm glad I'm wrong.

Same! All of the above. Except the part about eating crow, being 100% wrong, and being an idiot. I'm always, always in the right whose opinions (and memes) should never be questioned.

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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#132 » by Jammer » Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:46 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:
Jammer wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:


Agree on the salary for Theis.

Don't agree on White because they were also dumping Romeo Langford's $5.4 Million salary for next season.

So, that had a price. Say a 1rst Round Pick (expected around #25).

White appeared to be better than Richardson. That had a price. Cost the Pick Swap.

I'd say it was a fair trade if you view taking on Langford's remaining 2022 salary and paying him for next season as a cost that San Antonio wanted reimbursed.


I don't think that Romeo was so far gone that one needed to pay to dump him. True, he didn't play much in San Antonio. But then, being Romeo, he managed to get listed with at least two different injuries in his short time there.


Well, as for the injuries, there are 3 possibilities.

1 - they were real
2A - Pop didn't want to play Romeo, but chose not to list him as DNP-CD
2B - A more sophisticated approach to scenario 2 is to put a guy on the injured list (banged hand closing car door, banged knee falling out of bed, whatever) and not ruin his future ability to get a contract because instead of being a DNP-CD, he's on the injured list

Obviously, you believe in scenario 1

I tend to have suspicions that scenario 2B is a possibility. Since Romeo is under contract for next season, the Spurs coaching staff will have a shooting mechanics regimen, a shooting regimen, conditioning and basketball I.Q. coaching for Romeo to go thru to potentially make him a contributor next season. But that doesn't do anything to give Pop confidence to use him this season.
His 2 brief outings as a Spur were underwhelming.
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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#133 » by jonige94 » Mon May 2, 2022 1:25 pm

He failed tremendously on the Derrick White trade.
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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#134 » by 165bows » Mon May 2, 2022 2:51 pm

jonige94 wrote:He failed tremendously on the Derrick White trade.

White's failed to bounce back in his 3PT shooting that is for sure. This team definitely needs to find how to improve its offense out of the backcourt without giving up their defense.
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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#135 » by hugepatsfan » Mon May 2, 2022 3:39 pm

Did Brad fail in the White trade or is White failing to play well? There's a difference. If White just isn't capable of playing within our scheme then that's a Brad failure. If White is just shooting poorly, then that's kind of more on him. This wasn't a 1 year acquisition, so we'll see.

From what I see, White does everything within the system well. I genuinely feel like he's almost always making right decisions and either taking good shots or doing what needs to be done for someone else to get one. He's just shooting like absolute trash. There's no other way to put it - hot garbage. IDK, I still have pretty high confidence that it will be fine though. I don't think he's a great shooter, but he isn't a terrible one over his career either. I feel like over the long haul, water will find its level and he'll be fine.

I do think that this team needs another shooter/secondary ball handler. They need a guy who can bring what Pritchard does offensively, but in a body that they trust enough defensively to play extended minutes. Pritchard is only playing 11.4 minutes/game so far. They could really use a guy they trust to get that up to about 20. The extra spacing would make a nice difference. Should take a few minutes each from Smart and White to find those minutes.
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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#136 » by soxfan2003 » Mon May 2, 2022 4:02 pm

jonige94 wrote:He failed tremendously on the Derrick White trade.


I don't consider White a tremendous failure at all. You can fairly say the Celtics mildly overpaid for him considering the Spurs probably traded him in part to help out their tanking efforts. Check the Celtics record after the White acquisition. White is excellent on defense which is more than half the game for the Celtics considering Tatum/Brown will get most shots on offense and a good passer/playmaker. Sure his 3 point shooting sucked vs Brooklyn but it was still limited amount of shots. Against Milwaukee in game 1, White played well overall. People shouldn't judge him like he is expected to be a scorer. He is much closer to a 2nd Marcus Smart than some one dimensional scorer off the bench.

I've been very willing to criticize Brad Stevens. I think Ainge made a tremendous mistake in putting Stevens' reputation or Wyc's wallet above tanking/building slowly those first few years that Brad Stevens coached. I forget who said it many years ago but I cringed when someone on this forum said Brad Stevens as a coach was the Celtics superstar...players in the NBA win championships, coaches rarely do but foolish coaching philosophies can really hinder a team. Way too many years wasted with small ball teams that had close to zero shot to win against any excellent team with size. Stevens should have spoke up louder and earlier against the "small ball" lineups that the Celtics were doing. But Stevens in one season transitioned the Celtics from being a weak small ball team into a team with above average size/toughness so at a certain point Stevens may have said "enough is enough" and perhaps told Celtics ownership about some philosophical differences with Ainge.

The job isn't done since I said on the discord months ago that his edition of the Celtics isn't a true championship calibre team. They would need to get lucky like some weak champions of the past got lucky. See Toronto as a recent example. But at least now thanks in part from the personnel moves over the last year, Celtics are in position to get lucky.

I don't think the Celtics need some top 20 player/additional superstar to win it all with how the league is right now but a real good 2 way player off the bench with some size would help. Without White on the team now, the Celtics would have zero shot to win this series IMO. You need cohesiveness/team ball/defense to have the best shot to beat Milwaukee and the Celtics wouldn't have enough of that without White.

My only real issue with White right now is I think Udoka has to play him more in this series and sink or swim with him. If not more minutes for White, give Nesmith more of a shot.
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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#137 » by celtxman » Mon May 2, 2022 4:20 pm

soxfan2003 wrote:
jonige94 wrote:He failed tremendously on the Derrick White trade.


I don't consider White a tremendous failure at all. You can fairly say the Celtics mildly overpaid for him considering the Spurs probably traded him in part to help out their tanking efforts. Check the Celtics record after the White acquisition. White is excellent on defense which is more than half the game for the Celtics considering Tatum/Brown will get most shots on offense and a good passer/playmaker. Sure his 3 point shooting sucked vs Brooklyn but it was still limited amount of shots. Against Milwaukee in game 1, White played well overall. People shouldn't judge him like he is expected to be a scorer. He is much closer to a 2nd Marcus Smart than some one dimensional scorer off the bench.

I've been very willing to criticize Brad Stevens. I think Ainge made a tremendous mistake in putting Stevens' reputation or Wyc's wallet above tanking/building slowly those first few years that Brad Stevens coached. I forget who said it many years ago but I cringed when someone on this forum said Brad Stevens as a coach was the Celtics superstar...players in the NBA win championships, coaches rarely do but foolish coaching philosophies can really hinder a team. Way too many years wasted with small ball teams that had close to zero shot to win against any excellent team with size. Stevens should have spoke up louder and earlier against the "small ball" lineups that the Celtics were doing. But Stevens in one season transitioned the Celtics from being a weak small ball team into a team with above average size/toughness so at a certain point Stevens may have said "enough is enough" and perhaps told Celtics ownership about some philosophical differences with Ainge.

The job isn't done since I said on the discord months ago that his edition of the Celtics isn't a true championship calibre team. They would need to get lucky like some weak champions of the past got lucky. See Toronto as a recent example. But at least now thanks in part from the personnel moves over the last year, Celtics are in position to get lucky.

I don't think the Celtics need some top 20 player/additional superstar to win it all with how the league is right now but a real good 2 way player off the bench with some size would help. Without White on the team now, the Celtics would have zero shot to win this series IMO. You need cohesiveness/team ball/defense to have the best shot to beat Milwaukee and the Celtics wouldn't have enough of that without White.

My only real issue with White right now is I think Udoka has to play him more in this series and sink or swim with him. If not more minutes for White, give Nesmith more of a shot.

First off, there was a thread on the Derrick White trade that was inexplicably LOCKED by one of the mods with no explanation. So the discussion and concern has made it here and it does count on Brad's resume. The Celtics were playing well before White got here. No one uses this "team is playing great since he got here" argument with Luke Kornet. That's not enough. You can't give up as much as the Celtics did for White and playing 15 minutes in playoff games because he is ineffective. With Smart and Brown banged up he needs to start earning his pay and his minutes
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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#138 » by soxfan2003 » Mon May 2, 2022 4:20 pm

hugepatsfan wrote:Did Brad fail in the White trade or is White failing to play well? There's a difference. If White just isn't capable of playing within our scheme then that's a Brad failure. If White is just shooting poorly, then that's kind of more on him. This wasn't a 1 year acquisition, so we'll see.

From what I see, White does everything within the system well. I genuinely feel like he's almost always making right decisions and either taking good shots or doing what needs to be done for someone else to get one. He's just shooting like absolute trash. There's no other way to put it - hot garbage. IDK, I still have pretty high confidence that it will be fine though. I don't think he's a great shooter, but he isn't a terrible one over his career either. I feel like over the long haul, water will find its level and he'll be fine.

I do think that this team needs another shooter/secondary ball handler. They need a guy who can bring what Pritchard does offensively, but in a body that they trust enough defensively to play extended minutes. Pritchard is only playing 11.4 minutes/game so far. They could really use a guy they trust to get that up to about 20. The extra spacing would make a nice difference. Should take a few minutes each from Smart and White to find those minutes.


Pritchard I feel should have ideally never have seen the court vs this Bucks team when Giannis is on the court at least. I was afraid, he would not be effective overall vs them. Not really his fault, just a bad matchup for him. Bucks have too much size in their frontcourt and Pritchard is too small/relatively slow to close out effectively on the Bucks shooters in transition.

Nesmith if he can gain his confidence back may actually be the answer but kind of hard to play him meaningful minutes at this time and expect him to be a very good 3 and D player off the bench. Against the Nets, Pritchard has a big penetration advantage over Nesmith since Nets rim protection was mediocre and Nesmith isn't a very good ball handler for a 2 guard. On the other hand, Nesmith is big enough if he gets the ball inside, he may be a little less intimidated shooting.

But against this team if Nesmith could be in the game with Horford/Tatum and Smart or White, it would actually work if he could just hit 3's and hustle back on defense. Those transition 3's that Pritchard really can't contest that well, may be contested better and Nesmith much more likely to get loose balls/defend and do better on switches.

If the Celtics feel as though Nesmith sucks and will continue to suck, they need to get a replacement with size ASAP since this could easily cost the Celtics the series.

Pritchard is a pretty smart driver of the basketball but the lane won't really open up for him against this team with Giannis in the game unless a bunch of other players and not just him get hot from 3 and Milwaukee has to change their base defense. I'm not counting on that happening.

The Celtics need to try to beat this team 102-95 which they are fully capable of doing instead of expecting to score a lot of points vs them which I doubt Boston can do on a consistent basis.
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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#139 » by soxfan2003 » Mon May 2, 2022 4:48 pm

celtxman wrote:
soxfan2003 wrote:
jonige94 wrote:He failed tremendously on the Derrick White trade.


I don't consider White a tremendous failure at all. You can fairly say the Celtics mildly overpaid for him considering the Spurs probably traded him in part to help out their tanking efforts. Check the Celtics record after the White acquisition. White is excellent on defense which is more than half the game for the Celtics considering Tatum/Brown will get most shots on offense and a good passer/playmaker. Sure his 3 point shooting sucked vs Brooklyn but it was still limited amount of shots. Against Milwaukee in game 1, White played well overall. People shouldn't judge him like he is expected to be a scorer. He is much closer to a 2nd Marcus Smart than some one dimensional scorer off the bench.

I've been very willing to criticize Brad Stevens. I think Ainge made a tremendous mistake in putting Stevens' reputation or Wyc's wallet above tanking/building slowly those first few years that Brad Stevens coached. I forget who said it many years ago but I cringed when someone on this forum said Brad Stevens as a coach was the Celtics superstar...players in the NBA win championships, coaches rarely do but foolish coaching philosophies can really hinder a team. Way too many years wasted with small ball teams that had close to zero shot to win against any excellent team with size. Stevens should have spoke up louder and earlier against the "small ball" lineups that the Celtics were doing. But Stevens in one season transitioned the Celtics from being a weak small ball team into a team with above average size/toughness so at a certain point Stevens may have said "enough is enough" and perhaps told Celtics ownership about some philosophical differences with Ainge.

The job isn't done since I said on the discord months ago that his edition of the Celtics isn't a true championship calibre team. They would need to get lucky like some weak champions of the past got lucky. See Toronto as a recent example. But at least now thanks in part from the personnel moves over the last year, Celtics are in position to get lucky.

I don't think the Celtics need some top 20 player/additional superstar to win it all with how the league is right now but a real good 2 way player off the bench with some size would help. Without White on the team now, the Celtics would have zero shot to win this series IMO. You need cohesiveness/team ball/defense to have the best shot to beat Milwaukee and the Celtics wouldn't have enough of that without White.

My only real issue with White right now is I think Udoka has to play him more in this series and sink or swim with him. If not more minutes for White, give Nesmith more of a shot.

First off, there was a thread on the Derrick White trade that was inexplicably LOCKED by one of the mods with no explanation. So the discussion and concern has made it here and it does count on Brad's resume. The Celtics were playing well before White got here. No one uses this "team is playing great since he got here" argument with Luke Kornet. That's not enough. You can't give up as much as the Celtics did for White and playing 15 minutes in playoff games because he is ineffective. With Smart and Brown banged up he needs to start earning his pay and his minutes


The Celtics overall are 25-7 with White which includes a sweep of the Nets in the playoffs and the first game loss to the Bucks. It is ridiculous to suggest he wasn't a noticeanble upgrade in comparison to what they had before. The Celtics may have improved before White arrived but they sure did not look like a team about to go on a 25-7 run including sweep the Brooklyn Nets with KD and Kyrie both playing.

I wasn't paying attention when that thread was locked so I have no comment on whether or not it was the right decision.

I am not someone arguing the White trade and the Kemba/Horford trade for that matter shouldn't be on Brad Stevens resume. Even if Udoka lobbied for it the most, Stevens had to approve it. All of Stevens moves as gm should be on his gm resume as far as I am concerned. So far most of his moves are away from small ball which is a good thing. If better moves were out there, I am all for it but other than not getting a little more protection on the SAS pick swap, I don't think Stevens could have done much better without mortgaging away too many draft picks.

I disagree with White the player. He is good and has averaged 19.6 MPG in the playoffs. If Smart missed a game, he could step up and play 30+ minutes.

If JB and Smart don't have it going from 3, it will be tough to play White the 25-28 MPG that his basketball abilities suggest he deserves given the roster construction.

But besides the 20 MPG that he has been playing in the playoffs, think of White as Marcus Smart insurance. If Smart goes down for an entire series against a very good team, Celtics are probably hosed but the team may be able to survive with White and a depleted bench for a couple of games.

Given Smart's injury history and playing style, it was a wise decision get someone that could step in and play more minutes if need be.
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Re: Brad Stevens Finding The Way 

Post#140 » by soxfan2003 » Mon May 2, 2022 5:17 pm

165bows wrote:
jonige94 wrote:He failed tremendously on the Derrick White trade.

White's failed to bounce back in his 3PT shooting that is for sure. This team definitely needs to find how to improve its offense out of the backcourt without giving up their defense.


No doubt White shot 3's lousy vs the Nets but it was still a rather small sample of shots given the 4 game sweep and even great 3 point shooters shoot lousy in similar stretches on that shot volume from time to time.

Game 1 vs the Bucks, White was 2 for 3 from 3 and 4 for 4 from the line and he did this with Tatum/JB/Smart being off and only Tatum really faced much tougher defense from the Bucks than White. Bucks overloaded on Tatum and left Pritchard open more than I thought they would but other than that, appeared to concentrate on everyone else about the same.

White is a career 34% 3 point shooter and given its harder to shoot in the playoffs, I would only expect him in the long run to shoot around 32-33% from 3 in the playoffs. Not very good but really the only thing he does below average for the type of player he happens to be. If he was like a 40% 3 point shooter on a consistent basis in playoffs/regular season, the guy would be one of the best combo guards in the NBA. But I doubt White is ever that 40% 3 point shooter which is fine. I agree with you the Celtics need another option from the backcourt that can defend and shoot 3's.

In theory, the Celtics could have him and his name is Aaron Nesmith. No one can convince me, Nesmith isn't physically capable of hitting open NBA 3's given his free throw average and the 3 point shooting display he put on before the draft. His shot may have been a little slow entering the NBA but Bucks actually give a reasonable amount of time for opponents to fire up 3's if they aren't baseline 3's at least.
Nesmith may have lost a bit of confidence from playing less this year but he shot 37% from 3 as a rookie and over 50% from the college 3 his last year in college. It is difficult to shoot 3's or shoot period in limited minutes/opportunities since players often face more pressure in those situations.

Nesmith needs a legit opportunity in this series in a couple of games. He may not do anything with it but what he theoretically was drafted to bring to the table is a perfect fit against this Bucks team.

For all of Nesmith's struggles shooting the 3 this year in a small sample of opportunities, he is actually shooting 2's very well. And he is capable of crashing the offensive glass even against Giannis/Lopez and putting the ball back in the hoop with some unorthodox move. Pritchard isn't going to do that without it being a shock.

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