Jalen Brunson obsession

[Chanel Bomber]

Now Chanel is b*tching that the Knicks let RJ take too many shots while they did their version of attempting to develop him.

Damn. You and Jimmit need to get a room.

Development doesn't equate enabling a player to put up a lot of shots regardless of efficiency.

In any case, I don't necessarily mind that they ran this mad experiment. The results are in, and they're clear-cut, at least for now.

My point is that it shouldn't be celebrated.

RJ's play this season was trashy and on the same level as Randle. It was like the culmination of years of Marbury, Harrington, Afflalo, Porzingis, Mudiay and Randle - a horrific cocktail of inefficiency and selfish play, except way more inefficient than any of these guys (besides Randle this year who somehow managed to outdo him).

[thebuzzardman]

Personally I welcome the monthly longform non-argument with Chanel where we basically agree with each other.

It’s more like Schroedinger’s Cat than chicken/egg. There’s no way to know if Chanel is right until one of the Knicks late-lotto picks actually pans out, which hasn’t happened yet (and probably won’t).

There’s no way to know if I’m right until the Knicks actually commit to multiple top 3 picks, which also hasn’t happened yet (and almost definitely won’t).

The real question is— is this madness? Like for real, are diehard Knick fans literally insane? Is it actually mental for us to keep diving into it like this just to have something to talk about? God bless the fans who walked away years ago. Meanwhile Chanel is here on a mission to prove his Ts% manifesto and I’m still here with baited breath waiting to find out how Leon f*cks this up.

It is madness. I've come close to bailing but two things kept me in, but it might not last this time.

Knicks hired Phil Jackson. Hey, I get he wasn't a GM, and it probably wasn't going to end well, but I figured he's a great basketball mind, had cache with Dolan, so maybe Dolan would leave him alone, and IF (BIG IF) that general coaching acumen Phil first got from Red Holzman and later improved on translated, maybe the it would work.
Pretty early on, when he resigned Melo, got Rose, Jennings etc, we could see it probably wasn't going to work and then it just got worse and worse.

Mills taking over I figured would be a sh*t show but I kept rooting on inertia and the extremely slim chance that once he held the reigns of power, maybe the MSG shenanigans would die down and Knicks might be "decent". He and Perry showed some fiscal restraint, so that was refreshing, but again, it pretty quickly went south.

More recently, and these may be posts you recall, when Rose came in, I figured "well, an agent isn't the greatest idea but if he has connections, maybe he'll hire a good GM or up and coming guy". When Perry was retained, I figured it's going to suck but STILL, I had to give them an offseason and a trade deadline. Welp, we see how that went.

Now, I'm just here for the mockery mainly, but have a passing interest in seeing if maybe Aller/Rosas can wrest control of the FO and that all of them collectively learned something on the fly and they manage to undo last offseason this offseason. Which we know is HIGHLY unlikely. But yeah, I'm about at the end of the rope.

Buzz, just be honest with yourself. Your fandom has virtually zero correlation to hope. For me, I’ve come to peace that the Knicks are hopeless and I’m just kind of pleasantly amused by the weird reality that my desire to be a fan is totally unfazed.

I consider myself loyal and stubborn and a pretty simple man at the bottom of a Byzantine maze of peculiarities, not the least of which is my Knick fandom.

But if you require hope as a prerequisite for your NBA fandom, then you (like Jalen Brunson) have literally 29 superior options to choose from.

Oh, I'm just pointing out my journey to the absolute end of hope, Knick wise.

Other than that, there was thin hope of Dolan dying, but then I saw he has an even stupider, steroid addled offspring, so Knicks will be f*cked for at least another 50 years.

[thebuzzardman]

Now Chanel is b*tching that the Knicks let RJ take too many shots while they did their version of attempting to develop him.

Damn. You and Jimmit need to get a room.

Development doesn't equate enabling a player to put up a lot of shots regardless of efficiency.

In any case, I don't necessarily mind that they ran this mad experiment. The results are in, and they're clear-cut, at least for now.

My point is that it shouldn't be celebrated.

RJ's play this season was trashy and on the same level as Randle. It was like the culmination of years of Marbury, Harrington, Afflalo, Porzingis, Mudiay and Randle - a horrific cocktail of inefficiency and selfish play, except way more inefficient than any of these guys (besides Randle this year who somehow managed to outdo him).

No celebration. I see it as assessment and getting reps in. Those end games where RJ was really hoisting it up.
The from around game 30-60? I think RJ was playing well. In the context he's not super efficient, Knicks have no PG, Thibs offense kind of sucks, and Randle is a jack off.

[TheGreenArrow]

Now Chanel is b*tching that the Knicks let RJ take too many shots while they did their version of attempting to develop him.

Damn. You and Jimmit need to get a room.

Development doesn't equate enabling a player to put up a lot of shots regardless of efficiency.

In any case, I don't necessarily mind that they ran this mad experiment. The results are in, and they're clear-cut, at least for now.

My point is that it shouldn't be celebrated.

RJ's play this season was trashy and on the same level as Randle. It was like the culmination of years of Marbury, Harrington, Afflalo, Porzingis, Mudiay and Randle - a horrific cocktail of inefficiency and selfish play, except way more inefficient than any of these guys (besides Randle this year who somehow managed to outdo him).

Rj’s 21 and dubious is about to be 28!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Be better Chanel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BE BETTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cgmw]

It is madness. I've come close to bailing but two things kept me in, but it might not last this time.

Knicks hired Phil Jackson. Hey, I get he wasn't a GM, and it probably wasn't going to end well, but I figured he's a great basketball mind, had cache with Dolan, so maybe Dolan would leave him alone, and IF (BIG IF) that general coaching acumen Phil first got from Red Holzman and later improved on translated, maybe the it would work.
Pretty early on, when he resigned Melo, got Rose, Jennings etc, we could see it probably wasn't going to work and then it just got worse and worse.

Mills taking over I figured would be a sh*t show but I kept rooting on inertia and the extremely slim chance that once he held the reigns of power, maybe the MSG shenanigans would die down and Knicks might be "decent". He and Perry showed some fiscal restraint, so that was refreshing, but again, it pretty quickly went south.

More recently, and these may be posts you recall, when Rose came in, I figured "well, an agent isn't the greatest idea but if he has connections, maybe he'll hire a good GM or up and coming guy". When Perry was retained, I figured it's going to suck but STILL, I had to give them an offseason and a trade deadline. Welp, we see how that went.

Now, I'm just here for the mockery mainly, but have a passing interest in seeing if maybe Aller/Rosas can wrest control of the FO and that all of them collectively learned something on the fly and they manage to undo last offseason this offseason. Which we know is HIGHLY unlikely. But yeah, I'm about at the end of the rope.

Buzz, just be honest with yourself. Your fandom has virtually zero correlation to hope. For me, I’ve come to peace that the Knicks are hopeless and I’m just kind of pleasantly amused by the weird reality that my desire to be a fan is totally unfazed.

I consider myself loyal and stubborn and a pretty simple man at the bottom of a Byzantine maze of peculiarities, not the least of which is my Knick fandom.

But if you require hope as a prerequisite for your NBA fandom, then you (like Jalen Brunson) have literally 29 superior options to choose from.

Oh, I'm just pointing out my journey to the absolute end of hope, Knick wise.

Other than that, there was thin hope of Dolan dying, but then I saw he has an even stupider, steroid addled offspring, so Knicks will be f*cked for at least another 50 years.

Maybe this is what it felt like in medieval England when the soldiers all fought for a sh*tty King only to see his son be even sh*ttier.

Amazing that even for something as stupid and inconsequential as sports, the human brain still can’t switch sides. I’m stuck with my identity. Maybe my long-suffering Knick fandom would make me a good candidate to spend some time on an ashram questioning my attachments and pondering the great mysteries of the cosmos like why the Knicks took Frank over Donovan

[Chanel Bomber]

Now Chanel is b*tching that the Knicks let RJ take too many shots while they did their version of attempting to develop him.

Damn. You and Jimmit need to get a room.

Development doesn't equate enabling a player to put up a lot of shots regardless of efficiency.

In any case, I don't necessarily mind that they ran this mad experiment. The results are in, and they're clear-cut, at least for now.

My point is that it shouldn't be celebrated.

RJ's play this season was trashy and on the same level as Randle. It was like the culmination of years of Marbury, Harrington, Afflalo, Porzingis, Mudiay and Randle - a horrific cocktail of inefficiency and selfish play, except way more inefficient than any of these guys (besides Randle this year who somehow managed to outdo him).

No celebration. I see it as assessment and getting reps in. Those end games where RJ was really hoisting it up.
The from around game 30-60? I think RJ was playing well. In the context he's not super efficient, Knicks have no PG, Thibs offense kind of sucks, and Randle is a jack off.

I was not referring to you (when I said it was celebrated).

A lot of Knicks fans celebrated his performance this season. It's the overwhelming impression you get on Knicks Twitter, and on here too, to a lesser extent. A lot of independent Knicks media praised him as well, including Macri (who went the opposite direction to me) and Cohen.

Outside of a two-week stretch in late December-early January, I don't think he played well this year. He was not the only one to suck this year. Randle did too. Thibs did too. It doesn't erase or diminish the fact that RJ sucked just as much, in my opinion. Anyway, you get my point.

[Iron Mantis]

Development doesn't equate enabling a player to put up a lot of shots regardless of efficiency.

In any case, I don't necessarily mind that they ran this mad experiment. The results are in, and they're clear-cut, at least for now.

My point is that it shouldn't be celebrated.

RJ's play this season was trashy and on the same level as Randle. It was like the culmination of years of Marbury, Harrington, Afflalo, Porzingis, Mudiay and Randle - a horrific cocktail of inefficiency and selfish play, except way more inefficient than any of these guys (besides Randle this year who somehow managed to outdo him).

No celebration. I see it as assessment and getting reps in. Those end games where RJ was really hoisting it up.
The from around game 30-60? I think RJ was playing well. In the context he's not super efficient, Knicks have no PG, Thibs offense kind of sucks, and Randle is a jack off.

I was not referring to you.

A lot of Knicks fans celebrated his performance this season. It's the overwhelming impression you get on Knicks Twitter, and on here too, to a lesser extent. A lot of independent Knicks media praised him as well, including Macri (who went the opposite direction to me) and Cohen.

Outside of a two-week stretch in late December-early January, I don't think he played well this year. He was not the only one to suck this year. Randle did too. Thibs did too. It doesn't erase or diminish the fact that RJ sucked just as much, in my opinion. Anyway, you get my point.

Never forget, everyone is praising RJ's stats despite his TS% because of one reason: He's 21 years old.

If he were 27 years old getting those numbers, no one would care. Because of his work ethic, his age automatically implies he will get better.

[Chanel Bomber]

No celebration. I see it as assessment and getting reps in. Those end games where RJ was really hoisting it up.
The from around game 30-60? I think RJ was playing well. In the context he's not super efficient, Knicks have no PG, Thibs offense kind of sucks, and Randle is a jack off.

I was not referring to you.

A lot of Knicks fans celebrated his performance this season. It's the overwhelming impression you get on Knicks Twitter, and on here too, to a lesser extent. A lot of independent Knicks media praised him as well, including Macri (who went the opposite direction to me) and Cohen.

Outside of a two-week stretch in late December-early January, I don't think he played well this year. He was not the only one to suck this year. Randle did too. Thibs did too. It doesn't erase or diminish the fact that RJ sucked just as much, in my opinion. Anyway, you get my point.

Never forget, everyone is praising RJ's stats despite his TS% because of one reason: He's 21 years old.

If he were 27 years old getting those numbers, no one would care. Because of his work ethic, his age automatically implies he will get better.

Making the assumption that RJ will grow from bottom of the league in efficiency to above-average simply because he's 21 years old and a hard worker is incredibly optimistic.

It's safe to assume that RJ will improve, but will he improve enough is the question. The defense for preaching patience for Frank also rested on stories detailing that he was a hard worker. In the end, his hard work wasn't enough to make up for his lack of talent. I am not comparing RJ to Frank, as I expect RJ to have a long career, but addressing the idea that age/work ethic necessarily guarantees that a player will be good or great. Randle was 21 once too, and his work ethic has never been questioned.

The success rate of players who are this inefficient on high-volume in year 3 or at 21 is incredibly low. You can't just ignore it.

[Iron Mantis]

I was not referring to you.

A lot of Knicks fans celebrated his performance this season. It's the overwhelming impression you get on Knicks Twitter, and on here too, to a lesser extent. A lot of independent Knicks media praised him as well, including Macri (who went the opposite direction to me) and Cohen.

Outside of a two-week stretch in late December-early January, I don't think he played well this year. He was not the only one to suck this year. Randle did too. Thibs did too. It doesn't erase or diminish the fact that RJ sucked just as much, in my opinion. Anyway, you get my point.

Never forget, everyone is praising RJ's stats despite his TS% because of one reason: He's 21 years old.

If he were 27 years old getting those numbers, no one would care. Because of his work ethic, his age automatically implies he will get better.

Making the assumption that RJ will grow from bottom of the league in efficiency to above-average simply because he's 21 years old and a hard worker is incredibly optimistic.

It's safe to assume that RJ will improve, but will he improve enough is the question. The defense for preaching patience for Frank also rested on stories detailing that he was a hard worker. In the end, his hard work wasn't enough to make up for his lack of talent. I am not comparing RJ to Frank, as I expect RJ to have a long career, but addressing the idea that age/work ethic necessarily guarantees that a player will be good or great. Randle was 21 once too, and his work ethic has never been questioned.

The success rate of players who are this inefficient on high-volume in year 3 or at 21 is incredibly low. You can't just ignore it.

I understand.

Frank isn't really a good comparison since he never had the drive to be any type of scorer in the first place. That was our hope, not Frank's. He had to at least want to score before worrying about doing so efficiently.

RJ already has the relentless drive to score, so we are just expecting him to add elements to his offensive game that will allow him to score more easily/efficiently. His efficiency improved quite a bit from his rookie to sophomore year. This year could be the outlier. Next season should give us clarity.

Randle was indeed once 21, and in Randle's 3rd year his stats/efficiency were completely mediocre for a PF/C. But his stats/efficiency improved after that in years 4, 5 before coming to the Knicks.

[WargamesX]

Cuban is not letting Brunson leave…. No way.

[KnicksNext]

Now the Pacers are entering the Jalen Brunson sweepstakes. That means we’re going to have to get into a bidding war to secure his services.

I’d rather just go with IQ.

Seriously? Lol. You have to pay when you want good players. That's how the NBA works.

Paying for good-not-great vets when you’re a lotto team on 5-year minimum timeline: That’s how the Knicks work.

The only reason Brunson (or any veteran player or any talented coach/executive) would come here is if we win a bidding war. Well, that and cronyism.

Signing him would be a trash move for both sides, so I could definitely see it happening.

I'm just going to have to respectfully disagree. I'm not maxing him out, but I think he would be a fantastic add to our roster. He's one of the better PG's in the NBA. On the second tier level below Ja/Trae obviously, but he's good player, and relatively young as well. We need a PG and he's the best available (potentially). He's exactly what our roster needs. Someone who knows how run set plays and set up the team. He would be perfect in terms of distributing the ball to all of our young kids.

If he worth the max? No. But you have to overpay when you sign FA's (see Fournier). There doesn't seem to be much out there in terms of available players. If we could somehow work out a sign and trade with Mitch, it would be a great move. I don't want to lose Mitch, but I personally don't think he's coming back no matter what. AND if we could somehow convince Dallas to take Randle off our hands, that would be the steal of the century.

I think you're a great poster so it's simply a difference of opinions.

[cgmw]

Seriously? Lol. You have to pay when you want good players. That's how the NBA works.

Paying for good-not-great vets when you’re a lotto team on 5-year minimum timeline: That’s how the Knicks work.

The only reason Brunson (or any veteran player or any talented coach/executive) would come here is if we win a bidding war. Well, that and cronyism.

Signing him would be a trash move for both sides, so I could definitely see it happening.

I'm just going to have to respectfully disagree. I'm not maxing him out, but I think he would be a fantastic add to our roster. He's one of the better PG's in the NBA. On the second tier level below Ja/Trae obviously, but he's good player, and relatively young as well. We need a PG and he's the best available (potentially). He's exactly what our roster needs. Someone who knows how run set plays and set up the team. He would be perfect in terms of distributing the ball to all of our young kids.

If he worth the max? No. But you have to overpay when you sign FA's (see Fournier). There doesn't seem to be much out there in terms of available players. If we could somehow work out a sign and trade with Mitch, it would be a great move. I don't want to lose Mitch, but I personally don't think he's coming back no matter what. AND if we could somehow convince Dallas to take Randle off our hands, that would be the steal of the century.

I think you're a great poster so it's simply a difference of opinions.

Don’t get me wrong, Brunson looks solid. My question to you is: Let’s say you sign him for a healthy contract… now what?

To me, it sure looks like a redux of signing Randle to an aspirational contract when we were a terrible lotto team. Or THJ before that. Why pay veterans to star on bad teams? What’s the point?

If Leon does get Brunson, my sincere hope is that he goes “all-in” on the veteran movement by trading all of our youth for more established “win now” vets. Because whatever they think they’re accomplishing by “developing youth” while simultaneously paying veterans like Brunson, ain’t it. Pick a direction.

As far as I can see, there’s 0 possible path toward a championship by signing Brunson to a big contract on a terrible lottery team. The best possible move right now would be to dump Randle, Burks and Fournier if possible and just play a PG rotation of IQ/D-Rose/Deuce.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a capped-out core of Brunson-RJ-Mitch-Obi-IQ could be good enough to compete in a few years? I don't see it, but okay.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

It is madness. I've come close to bailing but two things kept me in, but it might not last this time.

Knicks hired Phil Jackson. Hey, I get he wasn't a GM, and it probably wasn't going to end well, but I figured he's a great basketball mind, had cache with Dolan, so maybe Dolan would leave him alone, and IF (BIG IF) that general coaching acumen Phil first got from Red Holzman and later improved on translated, maybe the it would work.
Pretty early on, when he resigned Melo, got Rose, Jennings etc, we could see it probably wasn't going to work and then it just got worse and worse.

Mills taking over I figured would be a sh*t show but I kept rooting on inertia and the extremely slim chance that once he held the reigns of power, maybe the MSG shenanigans would die down and Knicks might be "decent". He and Perry showed some fiscal restraint, so that was refreshing, but again, it pretty quickly went south.

More recently, and these may be posts you recall, when Rose came in, I figured "well, an agent isn't the greatest idea but if he has connections, maybe he'll hire a good GM or up and coming guy". When Perry was retained, I figured it's going to suck but STILL, I had to give them an offseason and a trade deadline. Welp, we see how that went.

Now, I'm just here for the mockery mainly, but have a passing interest in seeing if maybe Aller/Rosas can wrest control of the FO and that all of them collectively learned something on the fly and they manage to undo last offseason this offseason. Which we know is HIGHLY unlikely. But yeah, I'm about at the end of the rope.

[edited] Beliefs Hopes that have kept thebuzzardman from bailing

* Phil Jackson has a great basketball mind
* there's a remote possibility Steve Millls has a decent basketball mind
* Leon Rose doesn't have a basketball mind, but does have a fat rolodex
* no-name minor players in the Knicks FO who evidently are losing nearly all of the ongoing small-p political battles and have as much chance of "winning" as Ukraine might have above average basketball minds

[thebuzzardman]

It is madness. I've come close to bailing but two things kept me in, but it might not last this time.

Knicks hired Phil Jackson. Hey, I get he wasn't a GM, and it probably wasn't going to end well, but I figured he's a great basketball mind, had cache with Dolan, so maybe Dolan would leave him alone, and IF (BIG IF) that general coaching acumen Phil first got from Red Holzman and later improved on translated, maybe the it would work.
Pretty early on, when he resigned Melo, got Rose, Jennings etc, we could see it probably wasn't going to work and then it just got worse and worse.

Mills taking over I figured would be a sh*t show but I kept rooting on inertia and the extremely slim chance that once he held the reigns of power, maybe the MSG shenanigans would die down and Knicks might be "decent". He and Perry showed some fiscal restraint, so that was refreshing, but again, it pretty quickly went south.

More recently, and these may be posts you recall, when Rose came in, I figured "well, an agent isn't the greatest idea but if he has connections, maybe he'll hire a good GM or up and coming guy". When Perry was retained, I figured it's going to suck but STILL, I had to give them an offseason and a trade deadline. Welp, we see how that went.

Now, I'm just here for the mockery mainly, but have a passing interest in seeing if maybe Aller/Rosas can wrest control of the FO and that all of them collectively learned something on the fly and they manage to undo last offseason this offseason. Which we know is HIGHLY unlikely. But yeah, I'm about at the end of the rope.

Beliefs that have kept thebuzzardman from bailing

* Phil Jackson has a great basketball mind
* there's a remote possibility Steve Millls has a decent basketball mind
* Leon Rose doesn't have a basketball mind, but does have a fat rolodex
* no-name minor players in the Knicks FO who evidently are losing nearly all of the ongoing small-p political battles and have as much chance of "winning" as Ukraine might have above average basketball minds

I wasn't convinced of those things. Those were things I was willing to see if maybe it would work out. Of course none of them did or will

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

Did anyone actually do any research into Bro-lan?

[thebuzzardman]

Did anyone actually do any research into Bro-lan?

I recall someone posting his shot chart and #'s, and it was pretty good. NoDope? Dakomish? I forget.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

It is madness. I've come close to bailing but two things kept me in, but it might not last this time.

Knicks hired Phil Jackson. Hey, I get he wasn't a GM, and it probably wasn't going to end well, but I figured he's a great basketball mind, had cache with Dolan, so maybe Dolan would leave him alone, and IF (BIG IF) that general coaching acumen Phil first got from Red Holzman and later improved on translated, maybe the it would work.
Pretty early on, when he resigned Melo, got Rose, Jennings etc, we could see it probably wasn't going to work and then it just got worse and worse.

Mills taking over I figured would be a sh*t show but I kept rooting on inertia and the extremely slim chance that once he held the reigns of power, maybe the MSG shenanigans would die down and Knicks might be "decent". He and Perry showed some fiscal restraint, so that was refreshing, but again, it pretty quickly went south.

More recently, and these may be posts you recall, when Rose came in, I figured "well, an agent isn't the greatest idea but if he has connections, maybe he'll hire a good GM or up and coming guy". When Perry was retained, I figured it's going to suck but STILL, I had to give them an offseason and a trade deadline. Welp, we see how that went.

Now, I'm just here for the mockery mainly, but have a passing interest in seeing if maybe Aller/Rosas can wrest control of the FO and that all of them collectively learned something on the fly and they manage to undo last offseason this offseason. Which we know is HIGHLY unlikely. But yeah, I'm about at the end of the rope.

[edited] Beliefs Hopes that have kept thebuzzardman from bailing

* Phil Jackson has a great basketball mind
* there's a remote possibility Steve Millls has a decent basketball mind
* Leon Rose doesn't have a basketball mind, but does have a fat rolodex
* no-name minor players in the Knicks FO who evidently are losing nearly all of the ongoing small-p political battles and have as much chance of "winning" as Ukraine might have above average basketball minds

I wasn't convinced of those things. Those were things I was willing to see if maybe it would work out. Of course none of them did or will

Edited my post to more accurately reflect thebuzzardmans world takes.

Hopium is a hellavadrug.

[8516knicks]

That Brunson guy, what a loser. Only got 23pts. They lose by one. If he'd had 30 again they'd have won. It's all on him. We need CHEAP point guards! CHEAP I tell u!

[Richard4444]

Cuban is not letting Brunson leave…. No way.

It's not Cuban"s call. Brunson is a UFA. Cuban can only refuse any sign and trade deal (it would kill Knick's chances). But Brunson can go to Indiana or Magic if he chooses.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

Cuban is not letting Brunson leave…. No way.

It's not Cuban"s call. Brunson is a UFA. Cuban can only refuse any sign and trade deal (it would kill Knick's chances). But Brunson can go to Indiana or Magic if he chooses.

And Detroit.