Tatum VS Luka

[BodieB]

Because Luka is on another planet than Tatum offensively. Luka is many times better of a passer.

And yea the defensive gap between Tatum and Luka isn't even close to covering that. Tatum is the 3rd best defensive player on his own team at best. Luka is also not a bad defender anymore.

Nah, but comments like this make it easier to weed out who actually watches the games or understands what they're seeing on court.

So Tatum plays with the DPOY in Smart. Robert Williams is also a very high level defensive player. Saying Tatum is 3rd on his own team is neither insulting him nor a sign that another poster doesn't watch games or know what they are talking about.

In fact, dismissing that out of hand, suggests an unfamiliarity with who else is on the Celtics. I'm assuming you are aware of Smart since you know he just won DPOY, so I might suggest you take a hard look at Willliams defensively.

Celtics have a dominating defense right now. Something that isn't going to be the product of just one singular player. We should expect to see multiple good defenders on Boston, and lo and behold we do. Horford is still good, White is good. Brown is good. Theis and Pritchard aren't liabilities... The coach clearly knows defense.

Acknowledging other good players isn't trashing your guy. We need to move past that mentality.

The post I quoted doesn't have the measure of respect for Tatum's defensive ability your response does. It reads more like an absolute detraction of his defense rather than a credit to the team. So yes, if someone is going to be so dismissive of Tatum's skill on defense as merely "3rd at best"on the team then I can safely assume they ain't watching or they don't know.

[Feed Your Head]

That round was a continuation of what we’ve seen with Tatum. Here’s the on/off for the series.

Read on Twitter

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[Bob8]

He used the term should.

Fair! I actually read right past that because I'm on tilt from a similar debate with someone else, lol. That's on me.

They really SHOULD know better. They just... don't, on the regular.

You should ask yourself what average Tatum's or Luka's supporter know about other player. My guess is that they didn't watch them more than 2x a year.
They know 0 about building the roster, financial consequences...They basically watch games for fun. So my guess is that Nba executives know a little more and their predictions are based on more data, but of course it's still only prediction, it might be wrong in the end. It's like bookies, who are giving very accurate odds for games, because they know their business much better than average betting person.

[WintaSoldier1]

Luka is better objectively, bigger Impact on the court and is a much higher Floor-Raiser than Tatum right now.

Tatum is probably better at ceiling raising right now, being a Good 6'10 Defender + Elite Shot Creation is always great to be around, and unlike luka he's settled into a more off-ball weapon role and allows his teammates to operate and Tatum gets his buckets in the Flow/Sets of the Offense.

Luka as up until now has been in the "Luka-Ball" Heliocentrical play that historically doesn't win your championships, and overall limits your Teams Championships aspirations to your Superstar and the Hope Role players show up and win you a couple games in the Post-Season by hitting their shots.

It's unfair to limit Luka to only what we've seen but that's all we have from a NBA perspective, Basically, Luka is better but as of right now, Tatum seems to be "better" for championship aspirations due to playstyles.

Similar Case: Iverson Vs Steve Nash Debates

[Synciere]

Advanced stats say it's Tatum.

Eye test says it's a tossup.

Shooting and scoring goes to Tatum.

Playmaking goes to Luka.

Defense goes to Tatum.

Luka has the very slight edge in rebounding, though I think that's a wash.

If we want to go a step further and talk about wins, then that's Tatum also, since he was in the Conference Finals very early in his career when he started to blossom and he just took out KD and Kyrie in a sweep. Boston also has more wins, but that's more difficult to gauge playing in different conferences.

[bisme37]

Nba executives don't have much doubt,

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-execs-poll-luka-doncic-top-young-player-zion-williamson-lamelo-ball-evan-mobley/

That's all from me.

That's from months ago and the same executives who overwhelmingly picked the Nets to win the title this year, followed by the Lakers.

I would still believe that Nba executives should know a little bit more than us casual fans.

First off, who you calling casual fan lol? I'm an overly obsessed fan with no life outside of the NBA thank you very much.

The thing I'm getting at is things change and reasonable people adjust their opinions when new evidence is presented.

Luka has been regarded as the best player of the new generation by a mile, and when that survey was taken the Celts were sucking and people thought the team should be blown up. Fast forward and it's a different picture now.

I'm not mad at Luka fans for saying he's better. He's awesome and he is better in some ways. And if some other player was encroaching on my guy's status as the best I'd probably be all up in this thread trying to say it's not true too haha.

But it's a very a close comparison now. Things change and that's just where we're at.

[GOATTatum]

Tatum is the better overall player and its really not close.

[Woodsanity]

Advanced stats say it's Tatum.

Eye test says it's a tossup.

Shooting and scoring goes to Tatum.

Playmaking goes to Luka.

Defense goes to Tatum.

Luka has the very slight edge in rebounding, though I think that's a wash.

If we want to go a step further and talk about wins, then that's Tatum also, since he was in the Conference Finals very early in his career when he started to blossom and he just took out KD and Kyrie in a sweep. Boston also has more wins, but that's more difficult to gauge playing in different conferences.

What advanced stats favor Tatum? I do think its a lot closer of an argument than before but still give Luka the edge for now.

[Pinpilinpauxa]

Luka is the better player but Tatum is awesome. They both are easily the best young players.

[tsherkin]

You should ask yourself what average Tatum's or Luka's supporter know about other player. My guess is that they didn't watch them more than 2x a year.

That's about average for a casual fan offering up an opinion, for sure.

So my guess is that Nba executives know a little more and their predictions are based on more data, but of course it's still only prediction, it might be wrong in the end. It's like bookies, who are giving very accurate odds for games, because they know their business much better than average betting person.

I see what you mean. I still question what they actually know versus the information available to us now, particularly based on some decision-making patterns. I'd say the upper third of executives might fall closer in line with what you're saying, but not all of them weigh/consider information of different types the same way, either.

[Bob8]

That's from months ago and the same executives who overwhelmingly picked the Nets to win the title this year, followed by the Lakers.

I would still believe that Nba executives should know a little bit more than us casual fans.

First off, who you calling casual fan lol? I'm an overly obsessed fan with no life outside of the NBA thank you very much.

The thing I'm getting at is things change and reasonable people adjust their opinions when new evidence is presented.

Luka has been regarded as the best player of the new generation by a mile, and when that survey was taken the Celts were sucking and people thought the team should be blown up. Fast forward and it's a different picture now.

I'm not mad at Luka fans for saying he's better. He's awesome and he is better in some ways. And if some other player was encroaching on my guy's status as the best I'd probably be all up in this thread trying to say it's not true too haha.

But it's a very a close comparison now. Things change and that's just where we're at.

Let's do a test. Only 2 questions.

1. How many Mavs games did you watch this year?

2. Would you believe that Luka played his best basketball in the last few months of the season, just like Tatum?

[gorz]

I had luka ranked higher than Tatum previous two years but after closer examination I think Tatum is slightly better than luka. The defense edges it for me.

[Feed Your Head]

Advanced stats say it's Tatum.

Eye test says it's a tossup.

Shooting and scoring goes to Tatum.

Playmaking goes to Luka.

Defense goes to Tatum.

Luka has the very slight edge in rebounding, though I think that's a wash.

If we want to go a step further and talk about wins, then that's Tatum also, since he was in the Conference Finals very early in his career when he started to blossom and he just took out KD and Kyrie in a sweep. Boston also has more wins, but that's more difficult to gauge playing in different conferences.

What advanced stats favor Tatum? I do think its a lot closer of an argument than before but still give Luka the edge for now.

Advanced stats this season.
DPM: Tatum 5.7/Luka 3.7
EPM: Tatum 5.8/Luka 4.5
LEBRON: Tatum 5.1/Luka 3.0
RAPTOR: Tatum 6.7/Luka 6.3
RPM: Tatum 8.7/Luka 6.6
BPM: Luka 8.2/Tatum 4.9

[Bob8]

You should ask yourself what average Tatum's or Luka's supporter know about other player. My guess is that they didn't watch them more than 2x a year.

That's about average for a casual fan offering up an opinion, for sure.

So my guess is that Nba executives know a little more and their predictions are based on more data, but of course it's still only prediction, it might be wrong in the end. It's like bookies, who are giving very accurate odds for games, because they know their business much better than average betting person.

I see what you mean. I still question what they actually know versus the information available to us now, particularly based on some decision-making patterns. I'd say the upper third of executives might fall closer in line with what you're saying, but not all of them weigh/consider information of different types the same way, either.

That's why we're talking about averages. Average fan vs. average executive. The difference between informations and capacity to process them is very big between those 2 groups.

[tsherkin]

That's why we're talking about averages. Average fan vs. average executive. The difference between informations and capacity to process them is very big between those groups.

I see what you mean. And to be fair to average executives, sometimes it's hard to separate the executive from dumb ownership, for sure. But ultimately, we hear so many soundbytes from these guys and they're just... not impressive, often offering up old fallacies and outmoded styles of thinking which don't sensibly translate that it's really hard to get behind the idea that they're much better. Obviously, I don't mean "hurr, WS/48 means all, stats for everyone" and all that. You can overfocus on such things to be sure, the whole "forest for the trees" routine. But so many of them talk like 90s/early 2000s guys and so much of that is just so wrong. Wrong then as now, a lot of the times, not just in the "things have changed" mode.

Meantime, "capacity[/willingness] to process" isn't something that really sets average NBA execs apart, only the good ones.

[Synciere]

Advanced stats say it's Tatum.

Eye test says it's a tossup.

Shooting and scoring goes to Tatum.

Playmaking goes to Luka.

Defense goes to Tatum.

Luka has the very slight edge in rebounding, though I think that's a wash.

If we want to go a step further and talk about wins, then that's Tatum also, since he was in the Conference Finals very early in his career when he started to blossom and he just took out KD and Kyrie in a sweep. Boston also has more wins, but that's more difficult to gauge playing in different conferences.

What advanced stats favor Tatum? I do think its a lot closer of an argument than before but still give Luka the edge for now.

Advanced stats this season.
DPM: Tatum 5.7/Luka 3.7
EPM: Tatum 5.8/Luka 4.5
LEBRON: Tatum 5.1/Luka 3.0
RAPTOR: Tatum 6.7/Luka 6.3
RPM: Tatum 8.7/Luka 6.6
BPM: Luka 8.2/Tatum 4.9

Yeah, those.

I think Tatum does everything with less usage, so it looks like Luka is doing more because he literally has the ball half the time for Dallas while he's on the floor. PER does favor Luka though (25.1 vs. 21.8), but that's a stat skewed towards per minute numbers and usage. I prefer win shares, where Tatum leads Luka (9.6 vs. 7.6). Again, Luka just 'feels' like he's doing more, but Tatum is the better overall player today.

[Big J]

This is just Boston fans vs the world up in here. lol

[Archx]

What advanced stats favor Tatum? I do think its a lot closer of an argument than before but still give Luka the edge for now.

Advanced stats this season.
DPM: Tatum 5.7/Luka 3.7
EPM: Tatum 5.8/Luka 4.5
LEBRON: Tatum 5.1/Luka 3.0
RAPTOR: Tatum 6.7/Luka 6.3
RPM: Tatum 8.7/Luka 6.6
BPM: Luka 8.2/Tatum 4.9

Yeah, those.

I think Tatum does everything with less usage, so it looks like Luka is doing more because he literally has the ball half the time for Dallas while he's on the floor. PER does favor Luka though (25.1 vs. 21.8), but that's a stat skewed towards per minute numbers and usage. I prefer win shares, where Tatum leads Luka (9.6 vs. 7.6). Again, Luka just 'feels' like he's doing more, but Tatum is the better overall player today.

Tatum has higher number in win shares because he played 11 games more. And the reason why you "feel" like Luka is doing more is because he actually is doing more. He creates 52+ points per game for Mavs via scoring or assists. Tatum for example only 38+ points.

But those are regular season numbers, Luka usually has another level or two in the playoffs that he can go to just unfortunately he is still trying to get his rhythm back, and conditioning, from not being able to play for 12 or 13 days.

[Bob8]

What advanced stats favor Tatum? I do think its a lot closer of an argument than before but still give Luka the edge for now.

Advanced stats this season.
DPM: Tatum 5.7/Luka 3.7
EPM: Tatum 5.8/Luka 4.5
LEBRON: Tatum 5.1/Luka 3.0
RAPTOR: Tatum 6.7/Luka 6.3
RPM: Tatum 8.7/Luka 6.6
BPM: Luka 8.2/Tatum 4.9

Yeah, those.

I think Tatum does everything with less usage, so it looks like Luka is doing more because he literally has the ball half the time for Dallas while he's on the floor. PER does favor Luka though (25.1 vs. 21.8), but that's a stat skewed towards per minute numbers and usage. I prefer win shares, where Tatum leads Luka (9.6 vs. 7.6). Again, Luka just 'feels' like he's doing more, but Tatum is the better overall player today.

And when they play each other, it looks like that,

Watch on YouTube

And like that,

Watch on YouTube

I admit Tatum played some good D in this games.

[3toheadmelo]

This is just Boston fans vs the world up in here. lol

Nah I’m not a Boston fan. I think Tatum is better though. His elite defense is hard to ignore.