Weltman deserves more credit...

[D12VCMagic]

The majority of this board was saying they needed to rebuild the summer they got hired but they said they needed a year to evaluate a terrible and limited roster....

and then took what, 3 years to evaluate it.

Coming into the job

Previous year: ****
after first year :yep still ****
year 2: yep, ****
year 3: ****. Ok, 4 years in a row of **** so now we'll do something

Expect more of the same in our current “rebuild” too. I’m willing to bet WeltHam will just overpay Gary Harris to keep him and probably same with Bamba unless we get Chet.

They love to just run the same team back + a rookie every damn year. No attempts at improving the roster or building a cohesive unit, just sit back and “evaluate” and make one draft selection every summer and get paid millions of dollars for it. It’s ridiculous, and sadly Orlando is one of the few NBA cities you could get away with this garbage non chalant crap for years and years.

[VFX]

The majority of this board was saying they needed to rebuild the summer they got hired but they said they needed a year to evaluate a terrible and limited roster....

and then took what, 3 years to evaluate it.

Coming into the job

Previous year: ****
after first year :yep still ****
year 2: yep, ****
year 3: ****. Ok, 4 years in a row of **** so now we'll do something

Expect more of the same in our current “rebuild” too. I’m willing to bet WeltHam will just overpay Gary Harris to keep him and probably same with Bamba unless we get Chet.

They love to just run the same team back + a rookie every damn year. No attempts at improving the roster or building a cohesive unit, just sit back and “evaluate” and make one draft selection every summer and get paid millions of dollars for it. It’s ridiculous, and sadly Orlando is one of the few NBA cities you could get away with this garbage non chalant crap for years and years.

Im going to be so pissed when they massively overpay another vet that will treat their time in Orlando as a stopgap in their career.

They need to shoot for some of these young guys that can at least return value. Overpay Simons for all I care.

It's infinitely better than overpaying Gary Harris or Jeff Green simply because they need to spend money due to nobody wanting to come here.

[Magic_Kingdom]

The majority of this board was saying they needed to rebuild the summer they got hired but they said they needed a year to evaluate a terrible and limited roster....

and then took what, 3 years to evaluate it.

Coming into the job

Previous year: ****
after first year :yep still ****
year 2: yep, ****
year 3: ****. Ok, 4 years in a row of **** so now we'll do something

Expect more of the same in our current “rebuild” too. I’m willing to bet WeltHam will just overpay Gary Harris to keep him and probably same with Bamba unless we get Chet.

They love to just run the same team back + a rookie every damn year. No attempts at improving the roster or building a cohesive unit, just sit back and “evaluate” and make one draft selection every summer and get paid millions of dollars for it. It’s ridiculous, and sadly Orlando is one of the few NBA cities you could get away with this garbage non chalant crap for years and years.

Magic Under Weltman:
5 seasons
143 wins, 248 losses
.366 winning percentage

The Magic have a declining win percentage the past 4 seasons as Weltman completed a 3 1/2 year evaluation of Hennigan's players and built a roster of his own acquisitions:

2018-19: .512
2019-20: .452
2020-21: .292
2021-22: .268

Like most NBA execs who don't have confidence in their abilities to evaluate and develop talent, Weltman just puts all his eggs in the lottery basket and hopes for the best. If the Magic get the #1 pick many people will say he took the right approach, although he will still have to actually make the right pick. If the Magic get the #6 pick what is his next strategy?

[Max Power]

I’m not ready to give Weltman too much credit. I mean two playoff appearances with Hennigans guys isn’t much to hang your hat on. Getting Fultz to show something and drafting Franz Wagner is all he’s got unless Jonathan Issac all the sudden turns into Brock Lesnar durability wise next year. Cole Anthony’s a guy who can’t lead, and Jalen Suggs still needs time. That’s WeHams legacy here outside of Vucevic turning into an AllStar. They’ve got till the end of the 23-24 season to see some kind of playoff result, a second round appearance or he’ll be shown the door.

[drsd]

I’m willing to bet WeltHam will just overpay Gary Harris to keep him and probably same with Bamba unless we get Chet.

Orlando looks to be "required" to find a 20M contract this off-season to meet the salary floor. If the Magic does not draft a guard, easily this is achieved by a one-year 20M deal for Harris. That is, Harris "get's paid" and Orlando keeps cap flexibility to next year, when this team would actually value having it.

In that, this means Orlando drafted one of the PFs and Bamba can be part of a SnT deal; further mainiting the cap.

If the Magic does draft a guard, then this is inverted to Bamba getting paid, where Harris walks. In that, I expect a more normal contract. Say three-years at 35M in total.

They love to just run the same team back + a rookie every damn year.

This is for me totally false. Rolling it back would have been resigning Vučević, Gordon and Fournier. The upside there was a 45-win roster and a couple years of first round playoff exits. I am very please WeHamm cut bait on that. Notably, Gordon and Fournier have proven themselves to be fool's gold. (and the "asset" Orlando got for Vučević eases my mind on his loss).

..

[drsd]

I’m not ready to give Weltman too much credit. I mean two playoff appearances with Hennigans guys isn’t much to hang your hat on. .

TO agree: look, if the goal was to build around Fournier, Gordon, and Vučević, then a PG and a PF made sense. WeHamm got unlucky with Isaac, whom seemed a fit. But as the roster was consteructed, drafting Bamba as BPA made no sense. Even if Sexton was a stretch, at the time he was a better fit. An even better fit in 20218 was Mr. Trade-down. The lack of boldness in that obvious move was very difficult for me.

Orlando could have very easily found a trade at #9-Kincks or #10-Sixersm ith another asset, for the #6. Gilgeous-Alexander was very, very clearly the one player in the draft that would have complimented Fournier, Gordon, and Vučević for a 2020 playoff push. But nope: Orlando got Bamba.

In conclusion: the downfall of the previous roster in 2020/21 started with a very poor draft selection in 2018. But WeHamm saw the problem and moved-on. That was wise and prudent.

Now: we need to pray for really, really good doctors and trainers. The whole team's future is based on health.

..

[drsd]

I’m not ready to give Weltman too much credit.

Orlando is 26-77 since Vučević was traded. All the pro-tankers must love that stat.

[Skybox]

I’m willing to bet WeltHam will just overpay Gary Harris to keep him and probably same with Bamba unless we get Chet.

Orlando looks to be "required" to find a 20M contract this off-season to meet the salary floor. If the Magic does not draft a guard, easily this is achieved by a one-year 20M deal for Harris. That is, Harris "get's paid" and Orlando keeps cap flexibility to next year, when this team would actually value having it.
..

I really like Harris, but what's the upside to that kind of spending? If we have money to burn, why not look for a high risk/high upside situation like taking in Hayward + a pick or something with Oladipo? It's house money, why not swing away and gain additional assets or massive upside vs status quo?

IMO, most of their individual deals, picks, and trades have been sound, if not exciting...If I have a criticism of Weltman - it's risk aversion and spending entire seasons (of our lives) evaluating, developing, and masturbating away the years.

[VFX]

I’m not ready to give Weltman too much credit.

Orlando is 26-77 since Vučević was traded. All the pro-tankers must love that stat.

It’s not so much being pro-tank as much as it’s being anti middle of the league. Aka the worst possible place to be. Not good enough to actually compete and not bad enough to land talent in the draft.

[drsd]

I really like Harris, but what's the upside to that kind of spending? If we have money to burn, why not look for a high risk/high upside situation like taking in Hayward + a pick or something with Oladipo? It's house money, why not swing away and gain additional assets or massive upside vs status quo?

IMO, most of their individual deals, picks, and trades have been sound, if not exciting...If I have a criticism of Weltman - it's risk aversion and spending entire seasons (of our lives) evaluating, developing, and masturbating away the years.

If Orlando could choose between Harris on a one-year 15M deal and Oladipo on a one-year 20M deal, it is obvious what management would do.

[yoyojw17]

I’m not ready to give Weltman too much credit.

Orlando is 26-77 since Vučević was traded. All the pro-tankers must love that stat.

It’s not so much being pro-tank as much as it’s being anti middle of the league. Aka the worst possible place to be. Not good enough to actually compete and not bad enough to land talent in the draft.

yup... and the decision was made at the middle of last year... so we tanked that season and plan tanked this season to the best of our ability. Now our switch will be contingent on making the right selection in this draft and the improvement of our currently developing youngsters. People need to remember that the rookies and year two players are still trying to find their identities in this league... especially when you're starting your career on a losing team.

being added onto a team that already has an established culture and players above you will help in the player development. or a coach like pop who has this all down to a science.

I personally think that the right selection in this draft and a healthy offseason will signal the shift in gears as we look towards the upside. I don't see a reason why we can't at least be a play-in candidate next year... because I think our talent is that deep.

[jonbob17]

We begged for a rebuild two years ago and we got one. This team is fertile with young talent. We have another high-talent player joining the team this summer. We let the guys prove themselves on the court next season, get an idea of fit and the long-term keepers, and trade from strength and add free agents next summer. This team could be good next year, and a young contender the following.

If we had't blown it up last year, do we even make the play in game this season. Who would we have been better than? Difficult to figure out the whole roster, but we wouldn't have had Suggs, Harris , WCJ, or Hampton, maybe would have drafted Franz. Maybe Ross would have played harder, and we would have had another middle of the road FA. But still hard to believe we would have finished ahead of Charlotte or Cleveland.

What they need to be focused on is building the salary cap to align with the trajectory of the team's performance. You can't just add salary willy-nilly. The timing and construction is important to maximize cap room.

[Skin]

Easy to understand the frustration, but injuries have played a part in their plan.

I'm NOT mad that the state that this team is in. We are losing but THAT WAS the plan for this year. Believe it or not, we are making a MUCH bigger step towards progress, than we would have if we were still being lead by Vucevic... if we had resigned Fournier... if Aaron Gordon was still on our roster...

Yes, it took a while for them to "evaluate" and reboot our roster, but I am more than pleased with the trades they made. I do not feel like they held on too long and got bad value in return, which is always a concern when you delay rebuilds.

The record doesn't show the positive gains we made in player development and player discovery. We saw the cream rise to the top and the garbage sink to the bottom.

Rises: WCj, Franz, Bamba, Fultz
Falls: Anthony, Hampton

We were not completely dead at the trade deadline. Bol Bol is someone who could turn into something or not, but I like the chase for their vision.

The opportunity to turn this around is not far off.

[pepe1991]

shocking to some, but making roster incapable of winning game doesn't require much talent.

For sake of argument, to make direct playoffs on East this year 46 wins were required.
For playin 44.

if there won't be any dramatic fall on East, Magic won't sniff near that numbers next year, given that Weham are doing their traditional hibernation sleep after major trades that normally last 3 years. They call that sleep "evaluation" .

[OrlandoSaban]

...for being an incredibly successful con man.

He convinced Magic ownership and fans that he should be allowed to continue in his job, even though he has failed to add a star player through 5 drafts and 5 free-agency periods.

But more importantly, he convinced them to give him a green light to tank the franchise and oversee another rebuild, even though there are *already* six players on the *current roster* who were selected in the top 8 of the last five drafts, and all six were acquired by Weltman himself (4 via draft, 2 via trade). How many top-8 picks does he need before fans and ownership say no more tanking? It is the most unbelievable con job I can remember.

These six Weltman acquisitions are all on the current roster, and all were drafted in the top 8 since 2017:

Jalen Suggs -- #5 in 2021
Franz Wagner -- #8 in 2021
Mo Bamba -- #6 in 2018
Wendell Carter, Jr. -- #7 in 2018
Markelle Fultz -- #1 in 2017
Jonathan Isaac -- #6 in 2017

That's a lot of lottery loot for the second-worst team in the NBA. How does the guy who oversaw this still have a job, much less the faith of the organization to keep tanking for high draft picks?

It's even more inexcusable when you consider that some of the best teams in the Eastern Conference are led by players chosen outside the top 4.

Milwaukee
Giannis -- #15
Middleton -- #39

Miami
Butler -- #30
Adebayo -- #14

Toronto
Siakam -- #27
VanVleet -- Undrafted

Chicago
DeRozan -- #9
LaVine -- #13

Atlanta
Young -- #5

At the end of the day I just don't understand how there's so much patience for this dude. He's hit on one draft pick -- Franz -- and even Franz didn't have the kind of impact that really good rookies have on their teams' W-L records. But Welt seems to have everyone convinced that being awful is heading in the "right direction".

Your post seriously made my day. Quite honestly, I am disgusted with this entire franchise and most fans who are by ok and wanting to lose.

This is not the Orlando Magic I fell in love with in 1989. I still remember begging my parents to please call the phone number on billboards for season tickets 89 MAGIC - of course at the time they could not afford them but my ex HS girlfriend’s Dad had season tickets and we literally went to every single home game

I absolutely hate the new arena. I hate the atmosphere. I honestly am at the point where I don’t even follow this **** show anymore.

I was so thrilled when my cable provider here in Destin finally got the FOX Sports that played Magic games instead of Miami Heat games. I would literally call and DM them on FB every other day begging for that channel. I would like to think that perhaps I was a small tiny part of finally bringing the Orlando Magic on TV in the Florida Panhandle.

I am sick and tired of hearing about our amazing youn talent and how every player is doing so great and how wonderful our coaching staff is and bla bla bla from the front office

I am also sick and tired mid fans refusing to want any change with players.

I’m sorry but there should not be one single player on this team marked SAFE from being traded.

I have never seen a fanbase so persistent in wanting to keep a bunch of losers who haven’t won anything.

I am sick and tired of always purposely trying to tank.

I am sick and tired that it’s always NBA World title or bust mentality with the fanbase.

Right now I would take a treadmill team over this hot garbage

So we got yet another lottery pick by losing.. what have we gained from losing? Oh, another lottery bust.. another laughing stock of a losing bottom team and quite honestly and embarrassment to the city I love. It’s a disgrace when friggin soccer and a college football team in the freaking AAC conference is more popular than the first pro team ever in Orlando.

Sorry for venting but I just disgusted and sick of it.

People say be patient.. how much more FN patient can I get? It’s been a FN decade of LOSING.

I just want to see some competitive basketball- I don’t care if we ever win a ring.. I just want something to root for and see a competitive team play every night

[OrlandoSaban]

By the way.. I miss the days when I would be having a crazy stressful day at the office knowing that in an hour 1/2 (6:30) I would be on my recliner watching a decent, competitive Orlando Magic basketball game. Those days have been long gone.

Seriously, when was the last time the Orlando Magic played on a National Televised game?

[Skybox]

By the way.. I miss the days when I would be having a crazy stressful day at the office knowing that in an hour 1/2 (6:30) I would be on my recliner watching a decent, competitive Orlando Magic basketball game. Those days have been long gone.

Seriously, when was the last time the Orlando Magic played on a National Televised game?

At least you've got that beautiful sugar sand and tropical Gulf water...I was over there last weekend for the Moon Crush music festival...and I agree - I too am sick of all of the "3D chess", "crazy like a fox", patient evaluation and development BS...these are pros, development is somewhat fantasizing based on someone's arm length and fast twitch potential...some guys just aren't that good, go get good guys.

[Optimus_Steel]

...for being an incredibly successful con man.

He convinced Magic ownership and fans that he should be allowed to continue in his job, even though he has failed to add a star player through 5 drafts and 5 free-agency periods.

But more importantly, he convinced them to give him a green light to tank the franchise and oversee another rebuild, even though there are *already* six players on the *current roster* who were selected in the top 8 of the last five drafts, and all six were acquired by Weltman himself (4 via draft, 2 via trade). How many top-8 picks does he need before fans and ownership say no more tanking? It is the most unbelievable con job I can remember.

These six Weltman acquisitions are all on the current roster, and all were drafted in the top 8 since 2017:

Jalen Suggs -- #5 in 2021
Franz Wagner -- #8 in 2021
Mo Bamba -- #6 in 2018
Wendell Carter, Jr. -- #7 in 2018
Markelle Fultz -- #1 in 2017
Jonathan Isaac -- #6 in 2017

That's a lot of lottery loot for the second-worst team in the NBA. How does the guy who oversaw this still have a job, much less the faith of the organization to keep tanking for high draft picks?

It's even more inexcusable when you consider that some of the best teams in the Eastern Conference are led by players chosen outside the top 4.

Milwaukee
Giannis -- #15
Middleton -- #39

Miami
Butler -- #30
Adebayo -- #14

Toronto
Siakam -- #27
VanVleet -- Undrafted

Chicago
DeRozan -- #9
LaVine -- #13

Atlanta
Young -- #5

At the end of the day I just don't understand how there's so much patience for this dude. He's hit on one draft pick -- Franz -- and even Franz didn't have the kind of impact that really good rookies have on their teams' W-L records. But Welt seems to have everyone convinced that being awful is heading in the "right direction".

Your post seriously made my day. Quite honestly, I am disgusted with this entire franchise and most fans who are by ok and wanting to lose.

This is not the Orlando Magic I fell in love with in 1989. I still remember begging my parents to please call the phone number on billboards for season tickets 89 MAGIC - of course at the time they could not afford them but my ex HS girlfriend’s Dad had season tickets and we literally went to every single home game

I absolutely hate the new arena. I hate the atmosphere. I honestly am at the point where I don’t even follow this **** show anymore.

I was so thrilled when my cable provider here in Destin finally got the FOX Sports that played Magic games instead of Miami Heat games. I would literally call and DM them on FB every other day begging for that channel. I would like to think that perhaps I was a small tiny part of finally bringing the Orlando Magic on TV in the Florida Panhandle.

I am sick and tired of hearing about our amazing youn talent and how every player is doing so great and how wonderful our coaching staff is and bla bla bla from the front office

I am also sick and tired mid fans refusing to want any change with players.

I’m sorry but there should not be one single player on this team marked SAFE from being traded.

I have never seen a fanbase so persistent in wanting to keep a bunch of losers who haven’t won anything.

I am sick and tired of always purposely trying to tank.

I am sick and tired that it’s always NBA World title or bust mentality with the fanbase.

Right now I would take a treadmill team over this hot garbage

So we got yet another lottery pick by losing.. what have we gained from losing? Oh, another lottery bust.. another laughing stock of a losing bottom team and quite honestly and embarrassment to the city I love. It’s a disgrace when friggin soccer and a college football team in the freaking AAC conference is more popular than the first pro team ever in Orlando.

Sorry for venting but I just disgusted and sick of it.

People say be patient.. how much more FN patient can I get? It’s been a FN decade of LOSING.

I just want to see some competitive basketball- I don’t care if we ever win a ring.. I just want something to root for and see a competitive team play every night

All you listed there is the fault of the careless Devos family and their insistence on loyalty and keeping Alex Martins around. Combined with the transient nature of Orlando, so many people from other places.

[Skybox]

...for being an incredibly successful con man.

He convinced Magic ownership and fans that he should be allowed to continue in his job, even though he has failed to add a star player through 5 drafts and 5 free-agency periods.

But more importantly, he convinced them to give him a green light to tank the franchise and oversee another rebuild, even though there are *already* six players on the *current roster* who were selected in the top 8 of the last five drafts, and all six were acquired by Weltman himself (4 via draft, 2 via trade). How many top-8 picks does he need before fans and ownership say no more tanking? It is the most unbelievable con job I can remember.

These six Weltman acquisitions are all on the current roster, and all were drafted in the top 8 since 2017:

Jalen Suggs -- #5 in 2021
Franz Wagner -- #8 in 2021
Mo Bamba -- #6 in 2018
Wendell Carter, Jr. -- #7 in 2018
Markelle Fultz -- #1 in 2017
Jonathan Isaac -- #6 in 2017

That's a lot of lottery loot for the second-worst team in the NBA. How does the guy who oversaw this still have a job, much less the faith of the organization to keep tanking for high draft picks?

It's even more inexcusable when you consider that some of the best teams in the Eastern Conference are led by players chosen outside the top 4.

Milwaukee
Giannis -- #15
Middleton -- #39

Miami
Butler -- #30
Adebayo -- #14

Toronto
Siakam -- #27
VanVleet -- Undrafted

Chicago
DeRozan -- #9
LaVine -- #13

Atlanta
Young -- #5

At the end of the day I just don't understand how there's so much patience for this dude. He's hit on one draft pick -- Franz -- and even Franz didn't have the kind of impact that really good rookies have on their teams' W-L records. But Welt seems to have everyone convinced that being awful is heading in the "right direction".

Your post seriously made my day. Quite honestly, I am disgusted with this entire franchise and most fans who are by ok and wanting to lose.

This is not the Orlando Magic I fell in love with in 1989. I still remember begging my parents to please call the phone number on billboards for season tickets 89 MAGIC - of course at the time they could not afford them but my ex HS girlfriend’s Dad had season tickets and we literally went to every single home game

I absolutely hate the new arena. I hate the atmosphere. I honestly am at the point where I don’t even follow this **** show anymore.

I was so thrilled when my cable provider here in Destin finally got the FOX Sports that played Magic games instead of Miami Heat games. I would literally call and DM them on FB every other day begging for that channel. I would like to think that perhaps I was a small tiny part of finally bringing the Orlando Magic on TV in the Florida Panhandle.

I am sick and tired of hearing about our amazing youn talent and how every player is doing so great and how wonderful our coaching staff is and bla bla bla from the front office

I am also sick and tired mid fans refusing to want any change with players.

I’m sorry but there should not be one single player on this team marked SAFE from being traded.

I have never seen a fanbase so persistent in wanting to keep a bunch of losers who haven’t won anything.

I am sick and tired of always purposely trying to tank.

I am sick and tired that it’s always NBA World title or bust mentality with the fanbase.

Right now I would take a treadmill team over this hot garbage

So we got yet another lottery pick by losing.. what have we gained from losing? Oh, another lottery bust.. another laughing stock of a losing bottom team and quite honestly and embarrassment to the city I love. It’s a disgrace when friggin soccer and a college football team in the freaking AAC conference is more popular than the first pro team ever in Orlando.

Sorry for venting but I just disgusted and sick of it.

People say be patient.. how much more FN patient can I get? It’s been a FN decade of LOSING.

I just want to see some competitive basketball- I don’t care if we ever win a ring.. I just want something to root for and see a competitive team play every night

All you listed there is the fault of the careless Devos family and their insistence on loyalty and keeping Alex Martins around. Combined with the transient nature of Orlando, so many people from other places.

Is Alex Martins still a factor? I don't doubt he was during the Hennigan days... This is starting to sound like the "Thanks Obama" jokes when it rains outside.

[Optimus_Steel]

Your post seriously made my day. Quite honestly, I am disgusted with this entire franchise and most fans who are by ok and wanting to lose.

This is not the Orlando Magic I fell in love with in 1989. I still remember begging my parents to please call the phone number on billboards for season tickets 89 MAGIC - of course at the time they could not afford them but my ex HS girlfriend’s Dad had season tickets and we literally went to every single home game

I absolutely hate the new arena. I hate the atmosphere. I honestly am at the point where I don’t even follow this **** show anymore.

I was so thrilled when my cable provider here in Destin finally got the FOX Sports that played Magic games instead of Miami Heat games. I would literally call and DM them on FB every other day begging for that channel. I would like to think that perhaps I was a small tiny part of finally bringing the Orlando Magic on TV in the Florida Panhandle.

I am sick and tired of hearing about our amazing youn talent and how every player is doing so great and how wonderful our coaching staff is and bla bla bla from the front office

I am also sick and tired mid fans refusing to want any change with players.

I’m sorry but there should not be one single player on this team marked SAFE from being traded.

I have never seen a fanbase so persistent in wanting to keep a bunch of losers who haven’t won anything.

I am sick and tired of always purposely trying to tank.

I am sick and tired that it’s always NBA World title or bust mentality with the fanbase.

Right now I would take a treadmill team over this hot garbage

So we got yet another lottery pick by losing.. what have we gained from losing? Oh, another lottery bust.. another laughing stock of a losing bottom team and quite honestly and embarrassment to the city I love. It’s a disgrace when friggin soccer and a college football team in the freaking AAC conference is more popular than the first pro team ever in Orlando.

Sorry for venting but I just disgusted and sick of it.

People say be patient.. how much more FN patient can I get? It’s been a FN decade of LOSING.

I just want to see some competitive basketball- I don’t care if we ever win a ring.. I just want something to root for and see a competitive team play every night

All you listed there is the fault of the careless Devos family and their insistence on loyalty and keeping Alex Martins around. Combined with the transient nature of Orlando, so many people from other places.

Is Alex Martins still a factor? I don't doubt he was during the Hennigan days... This is starting to sound like the "Thanks Obama" jokes when it rains outside.

Martins hired Hennigan. And was the reason they brought in Skiles. He hired WeHam. He's been around and is still around....