How many Years of Shaq would you take over ’22 Nikola Jokic?

[No-more-rings]

Do you think Shaq was significantly better postseason performer than Jokic? Nikola was quite remarkable in that series, despite 5 games loss.

Well I wouldn't say significantly better, I don't think you can say anyone in history is "significantly better", the guy just put up almost a 33 PER in both the regular season and playoffs. Offensively he's the real deal, I still think even with Shaq's weaknesses on defense, he's a better defender than Jokic. Shaq's offense is still monstrously impactful, even if it's not quite Jokic level. Even in 2003 Shaq was leading the league in ORAPM.

So you think 2003 Shaq was comparably good offensively to Jokic? Or do you think even that version of Shaq was clearly better defensively than Jokic? I'm not sure I'd agree on the second point.

I think relative to era, Shaq was better defensively yes. I'd rather not speculate how he'd do today in that regard, because his approach could be different as well as his training and stuff.

[70sFan]

Well then Shaq of course. He's a proven commodity. We don't know what Jokic looks like on the big stage, with expectations, and under pressure.

Jokic was under pressure all series long now, I think he did anything he could.

He was not under much pressure at all. Definitely not compared to the NBA finals.

MVP facing much better team without much help in the playoffs is always under huge pressure.

[70sFan]

Well I wouldn't say significantly better, I don't think you can say anyone in history is "significantly better", the guy just put up almost a 33 PER in both the regular season and playoffs. Offensively he's the real deal, I still think even with Shaq's weaknesses on defense, he's a better defender than Jokic. Shaq's offense is still monstrously impactful, even if it's not quite Jokic level. Even in 2003 Shaq was leading the league in ORAPM.

So you think 2003 Shaq was comparably good offensively to Jokic? Or do you think even that version of Shaq was clearly better defensively than Jokic? I'm not sure I'd agree on the second point.

I think relative to era, Shaq was better defensively yes. I'd rather not speculate how he'd do today in that regard, because his approach could be different as well as his training and stuff.

Yeah, I don't like throwing older players into 2022 league with no preparation, because it's pointless.

Still, I'm not sure if 2003 version of Shaq was better defensively than Jokic this year. Lakers were identical with and without him on the floor defensively (actually slightly better) and he seems to be negative in postseason by raw on/off (very small sample though).If we take a look at RAPM and RPM studies, they actually show him in negative light as well.

Shaq was a monster offensively in 2003, but I wouldn't give him any defensive advantage.

[No-more-rings]

So you think 2003 Shaq was comparably good offensively to Jokic? Or do you think even that version of Shaq was clearly better defensively than Jokic? I'm not sure I'd agree on the second point.

I think relative to era, Shaq was better defensively yes. I'd rather not speculate how he'd do today in that regard, because his approach could be different as well as his training and stuff.

Yeah, I don't like throwing older players into 2022 league with no preparation, because it's pointless.

Still, I'm not sure if 2003 version of Shaq was better defensively than Jokic this year. Lakers were identical with and without him on the floor defensively (actually slightly better) and he seems to be negative in postseason by raw on/off (very small sample though).If we take a look at RAPM and RPM studies, they actually show him in negative light as well.

Shaq was a monster offensively in 2003, but I wouldn't give him any defensive advantage.

RAPM still has him as a small positive on defense, and that's with him probably not trying as hard as he could. I'd be more worried about Jokic's defense over an extended playoffs than Shaq's although I don't want either as my anchor. Shaq being the large body who could block shots and deter shots at the rim, seems more valuable in a year like 03 than whatever Jokic offers there today. I think Jokic's on/off numbers for d were more fluky than some evidence he's now a great defender.

[70sFan]

I think relative to era, Shaq was better defensively yes. I'd rather not speculate how he'd do today in that regard, because his approach could be different as well as his training and stuff.

Yeah, I don't like throwing older players into 2022 league with no preparation, because it's pointless.

Still, I'm not sure if 2003 version of Shaq was better defensively than Jokic this year. Lakers were identical with and without him on the floor defensively (actually slightly better) and he seems to be negative in postseason by raw on/off (very small sample though).If we take a look at RAPM and RPM studies, they actually show him in negative light as well.

Shaq was a monster offensively in 2003, but I wouldn't give him any defensive advantage.

RAPM still has him as a small positive on defense, and that's with him probably not trying as hard as he could. I'd be more worried about Jokic's defense over an extended playoffs than Shaq's although I don't want either as my anchor. Shaq being the large body who could block shots and deter shots at the rim, seems more valuable in a year like 03 than whatever Jokic offers there today. I think Jokic's on/off numbers for d were more fluky than some evidence he's now a great defender.

Depending on the source, Shaq looks negative in some +/- data, including ESPN RPM. I don't know, I wouldn't agree that 2003 Shaq was clearly better, more imapctful defender than this version of Jokic.

[Dutchball97]

2000 is an All-Time great peak so that one for sure. 2001 and 2002 are definitely arguable as well but I'm leaning toward Jokic 2022 season being slightly better overall.

[Stalwart]

Jokic was under pressure all series long now, I think he did anything he could.

He was not under much pressure at all. Definitely not compared to the NBA finals.

MVP facing much better team without much help in the playoffs is always under huge pressure.

I disagree. Nobody was expecting Jokic to win. Therefore there was no pressure to win. We all know he didn't have his main guys.

[70sFan]

He was not under much pressure at all. Definitely not compared to the NBA finals.

MVP facing much better team without much help in the playoffs is always under huge pressure.

I disagree. Nobody was expecting Jokic to win. Therefore there was no pressure to win. We all know he didn't have his main guys.

So people didn't expect from Jokic to play well?

[KobesScarf]

Game for game 94-03 & 05

[KobesScarf]

2000, and that's due to defense. Maybe 2001.

Do you think Shaq was significantly better defender in 2000 than in any other season? To be honest, I am not impressed with Shaq's defense even in 2000.

05 was his best defensive season IMO.

[70sFan]

2000, and that's due to defense. Maybe 2001.

Do you think Shaq was significantly better defender in 2000 than in any other season? To be honest, I am not impressed with Shaq's defense even in 2000.

05 was his best defensive season IMO.

I don't think I agree, 2005 is probably the most overrated version of Shaq ever.

[Stalwart]

MVP facing much better team without much help in the playoffs is always under huge pressure.

I disagree. Nobody was expecting Jokic to win. Therefore there was no pressure to win. We all know he didn't have his main guys.

So people didn't expect from Jokic to play well?

Expectations to play well are not the same as expectations to win. Entirely different animal. Jokic hasn't faced that animal yet.

[70sFan]

I disagree. Nobody was expecting Jokic to win. Therefore there was no pressure to win. We all know he didn't have his main guys.

So people didn't expect from Jokic to play well?

Expectations to play well are not the same as expectations to win. Entirely different animal. Jokic hasn't faced that animal yet.

Jokic already played four games 7 in his career, he won three of them. He also led his team to a win from 1-3 two times already, against Jazz and Clippers in 2020 playoffs. In these three games he averaged:

28/8/6 on 68 TS% vs Jazz
24/17/8 on 61 TS% vs Clippers

Jokic faced a lot of heated moments already in his relatively short postseason career. I won't believe that he'll choke under the pressure when he proved that he didn't so many times.

[McBubbles]

Do you think Shaq was significantly better defender in 2000 than in any other season? To be honest, I am not impressed with Shaq's defense even in 2000.

05 was his best defensive season IMO.

I don't think I agree, 2005 is probably the most overrated version of Shaq ever.

Interesting. Can you elaborate on why you think it's overrated?

[70sFan]

05 was his best defensive season IMO.

I don't think I agree, 2005 is probably the most overrated version of Shaq ever.

Interesting. Can you elaborate on why you think it's overrated?

Because people associated Heat improvement only with Shaq's arrival, which was clearly wrong when you take a closer look in a hindsight. People didn't realize that Wade became legit superstar in that season and was at least just as important for that team as Shaq.

Second thing is about his defense. It's true that he put more effort on that end than usual, but the truth is that he wasn't elite defender, I don't think he's even top 15 defender in the league during that season.

All this talk about Shaq being the real MVP of 2005 season is also odd, I don't think he'd be even my 2nd choice after Nash. I'm not saying 2005 Shaq sucked, but he wasn't the only driving force behind Heat success and he wasn't nearly as impactful as some people believed back then.