1992 MJ vs 2000 Shaq. Who playoff run was better?

[AMW27]

Who had the better playoff run?

[No-more-rings]

I think pretty obviously Shaq. MJ's 89-91 playoff runs have cases but not 92 imo.

[Gregoire]

MJ slightly better due to competition faced and very weak Shaq's Portland series.

[70sFan]

Shaq, as Jordan's performance against Knicks was relatively weak. O'Neal had no such a series.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Shaq, as Jordan's performance against Knicks was relatively weak. O'Neal had no such a series.

Shaq had very at best lukewarm performances (by his individual standards) towards the end of the Portland series imho. Rasheed was more unstoppable for much of that game 7 than he was. Otoh in the 92 game 7 vs NY facing elimination at home Jordan was red hot with 42 as they blew out the Knicks.

Obviously Shaq > Kobe that regular season and playoffs but had Kobe not had that all around brilliant game 7 then that would've been amongst the most talked about collapses in NBA playoff history and the blame would've chiefly fell on Shaq's shoulders and altered his legacy.

[70sFan]

Shaq, as Jordan's performance against Knicks was relatively weak. O'Neal had no such a series.

Shaq had very at best lukewarm performances (by his individual standards) towards the end of the Portland series imho. Rasheed was more unstoppable for much of that game 7 than he was. Otoh in the 92 game 7 vs NY facing elimination at home Jordan was red hot with 42 as they blew out the Knicks.

Obviously Shaq > Kobe that regular season and playoffs but had Kobe not had that all around brilliant game 7 then that would've been amongst the most talked about collapses in NBA playoff history and the blame would've chiefly fell on Shaq's shoulders and altered his legacy.

I think looking at the whole series gives us clearer picture than nitpicking one game

[tsherkin]

I think looking at the whole series gives us clearer picture than nitpicking one game

Is perhaps also relevant that the series was played at just under 87 possessions per game. With two volume scorers on the same team and a good defense fighting to deny, there are only so many possessions to go around. Shaq had 9 FGA and 12 FTA, which doesn't stun the eye test, but he was doing well with his scoring possessions.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Shaq, as Jordan's performance against Knicks was relatively weak. O'Neal had no such a series.

Shaq had very at best lukewarm performances (by his individual standards) towards the end of the Portland series imho. Rasheed was more unstoppable for much of that game 7 than he was. Otoh in the 92 game 7 vs NY facing elimination at home Jordan was red hot with 42 as they blew out the Knicks.

Obviously Shaq > Kobe that regular season and playoffs but had Kobe not had that all around brilliant game 7 then that would've been amongst the most talked about collapses in NBA playoff history and the blame would've chiefly fell on Shaq's shoulders and altered his legacy.

I think looking at the whole series gives us clearer picture than nitpicking one game

Which is why I mentioned "towards the end of the series". Shaq did not have a good game 6 on the road in Portland in addition to game 7 as the Lakers struggled to finish off the Blazers despite being up 3-2 headed into that game.

He was poor from both the field 7/17 and at the line even worse 3/10.

[PistolPeteJR]

Shaq had very at best lukewarm performances (by his individual standards) towards the end of the Portland series imho. Rasheed was more unstoppable for much of that game 7 than he was. Otoh in the 92 game 7 vs NY facing elimination at home Jordan was red hot with 42 as they blew out the Knicks.

Obviously Shaq > Kobe that regular season and playoffs but had Kobe not had that all around brilliant game 7 then that would've been amongst the most talked about collapses in NBA playoff history and the blame would've chiefly fell on Shaq's shoulders and altered his legacy.

I think looking at the whole series gives us clearer picture than nitpicking one game

Which is why I mentioned "towards the end of the series". Shaq did not have a good game 6 on the road in Portland in addition to game 7 as the Lakers struggled to finish off the Blazers despite being up 3-2 headed into that game.

He was poor from both the field 7/17 and at the line even worse 3/10.

What they’re saying is we can all nitpick games, but ‘92 Jordan had duds too; all in all, Shaq had the more dominant and impressive PS.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

I think looking at the whole series gives us clearer picture than nitpicking one game

Which is why I mentioned "towards the end of the series". Shaq did not have a good game 6 on the road in Portland in addition to game 7 as the Lakers struggled to finish off the Blazers despite being up 3-2 headed into that game.

He was poor from both the field 7/17 and at the line even worse 3/10.

What they’re saying is we can all nitpick games, but ‘92 Jordan had duds too; all in all, Shaq had the more dominant and impressive PS.

Duds like where exactly? Did Jordan have trouble closing out a playoff series in 92 like Shaq did?

Jordan had the 2nd highest scoring average for a playoff series in NBA history vs Miami..... only slightly behind Jerry West vs Baltimore in 65.

In the Finals he thoroughly roasted prime Clyde Drexler.

Shaq had a monster Finals albeit vs injury riddled Rik Smits and 39 year old Sam Perkins. Jordan showed in the 92 Finals he could elevate his level of play and impose his will in a winning manner vs a HOF perimeter great on top of his game that could rival him skillwise....unlike any version of Shaq vs guys that could score and rebound just as good as he could.

[Homer38]

Which is why I mentioned "towards the end of the series". Shaq did not have a good game 6 on the road in Portland in addition to game 7 as the Lakers struggled to finish off the Blazers despite being up 3-2 headed into that game.

He was poor from both the field 7/17 and at the line even worse 3/10.

What they’re saying is we can all nitpick games, but ‘92 Jordan had duds too; all in all, Shaq had the more dominant and impressive PS.

Duds like where exactly? Did Jordan have trouble closing out a playoff series in 92 like Shaq did?

Jordan had the 2nd highest scoring average for a playoff series in NBA history vs Miami..... only slightly behind Jerry West vs Baltimore in 65.

In the Finals he thoroughly roasted prime Clyde Drexler.

Shaq had a monster Finals albeit vs injury riddled Rik Smits and 39 year old Sam Perkins. Jordan showed in the 92 Finals he could elevate his level of play and impose his will in a winning manner vs a HOF perimeter great on top of his game that could rival him skillwise....unlike any version of Shaq vs guys that could score and rebound just as good as he could.

Shaq was also the only one on the lakers who had show up in game 5.And the coverage that Shaq had at the end of this series was also crazy,even when he had not the ball.The reason why he had only 9 FGA in game 7

[70sFan]

Which is why I mentioned "towards the end of the series". Shaq did not have a good game 6 on the road in Portland in addition to game 7 as the Lakers struggled to finish off the Blazers despite being up 3-2 headed into that game.

He was poor from both the field 7/17 and at the line even worse 3/10.

What they’re saying is we can all nitpick games, but ‘92 Jordan had duds too; all in all, Shaq had the more dominant and impressive PS.

Duds like where exactly? Did Jordan have trouble closing out a playoff series in 92 like Shaq did?

Jordan had the 2nd highest scoring average for a playoff series in NBA history vs Miami..... only slightly behind Jerry West vs Baltimore in 65.

In the Finals he thoroughly roasted prime Clyde Drexler.

Shaq had a monster Finals albeit vs injury riddled Rik Smits and 39 year old Sam Perkins. Jordan showed in the 92 Finals he could elevate his level of play and impose his will in a winning manner vs a HOF perimeter great on top of his game that could rival him skillwise....unlike any version of Shaq vs guys that could score and rebound just as good as he could.

Game 6 vs Knicks
Game 6 vs Cavs

[Dutchball97]

Jordan absolutely tore apart the Heat and did wonders for his averages but let's not forget the Heat were a -3.94 SRS team in 1992. They had no business even being in the play-offs. Then MJ had good but definitely disappointing series by his own standards when he faced good teams like the Knicks and Cavs. The Blazers series was noticeably better but still just about average for Jordan's own standards.

Shaq faced a much tougher team in the first round (Kings with 3.04 SRS) and he did really well there, personally I'd say this performance was somewhat comparable to MJ against the Blazers in the finals. Suns were better than the Kings but Shaq did just as well as the previous round. Shaq against the Blazers was a bit worse but MJ had two series like that. Against the Pacers Shaq really put a stamp on his post-season. Kobe had been a capable sidekick but kind of disappeared in the finals and then Shaq averaged 38/17/2/1/3 for the series.

Looking just at their averages for their respective play-offs they look comparable but when looking at it per series this clearly goes in favor of Shaq.

[70sFan]

Jordan averaged 32.8 ppg, 5.7 rpg and 5.6 apg with unusually high 3.7 tov and 55.4 TS%. Not saying it wasn't impressive run, but far from ATG ones he's known for.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

What they’re saying is we can all nitpick games, but ‘92 Jordan had duds too; all in all, Shaq had the more dominant and impressive PS.

Duds like where exactly? Did Jordan have trouble closing out a playoff series in 92 like Shaq did?

Jordan had the 2nd highest scoring average for a playoff series in NBA history vs Miami..... only slightly behind Jerry West vs Baltimore in 65.

In the Finals he thoroughly roasted prime Clyde Drexler.

Shaq had a monster Finals albeit vs injury riddled Rik Smits and 39 year old Sam Perkins. Jordan showed in the 92 Finals he could elevate his level of play and impose his will in a winning manner vs a HOF perimeter great on top of his game that could rival him skillwise....unlike any version of Shaq vs guys that could score and rebound just as good as he could.

Shaq was also the only one on the lakers who had show up in game 5.And the coverage that Shaq had at the end of this series was also crazy,even when he had not the ball.The reason why he had only 9 FGA in game 7

The 92 Knicks were a more physical and better defensive team than the '00 Blazers were imho. So that "coverage" argument offset here.

Kobe tallied more rebounds blocks (2 facets of the game you'd expect a Center to dominate over a 6'6" SG when his offense was slowed) assists and steals than Shaq in that critical game 7 at home in addition to outscoring him.

[Homer38]

Duds like where exactly? Did Jordan have trouble closing out a playoff series in 92 like Shaq did?

Jordan had the 2nd highest scoring average for a playoff series in NBA history vs Miami..... only slightly behind Jerry West vs Baltimore in 65.

In the Finals he thoroughly roasted prime Clyde Drexler.

Shaq had a monster Finals albeit vs injury riddled Rik Smits and 39 year old Sam Perkins. Jordan showed in the 92 Finals he could elevate his level of play and impose his will in a winning manner vs a HOF perimeter great on top of his game that could rival him skillwise....unlike any version of Shaq vs guys that could score and rebound just as good as he could.

Shaq was also the only one on the lakers who had show up in game 5.And the coverage that Shaq had at the end of this series was also crazy,even when he had not the ball.The reason why he had only 9 FGA in game 7

The 92 Knicks were a more physical and better defensive team than the '00 Blazers were imho. So that "coverage" argument offset here.

Kobe tallied more rebounds blocks (2 facets of the game you'd expect a Center to dominate over a 6'6" SG when his offense was slowed) assists and steals than Shaq in that critical game 7 at home in addition to outscoring him.

If Kobe would been better in game 5,this series is likely over after 5 games.Shaq was also better on the free throw line that Kobe in game 7!

[FuShengTHEGreat]

What they’re saying is we can all nitpick games, but ‘92 Jordan had duds too; all in all, Shaq had the more dominant and impressive PS.

Duds like where exactly? Did Jordan have trouble closing out a playoff series in 92 like Shaq did?

Jordan had the 2nd highest scoring average for a playoff series in NBA history vs Miami..... only slightly behind Jerry West vs Baltimore in 65.

In the Finals he thoroughly roasted prime Clyde Drexler.

Shaq had a monster Finals albeit vs injury riddled Rik Smits and 39 year old Sam Perkins. Jordan showed in the 92 Finals he could elevate his level of play and impose his will in a winning manner vs a HOF perimeter great on top of his game that could rival him skillwise....unlike any version of Shaq vs guys that could score and rebound just as good as he could.

Game 6 vs Knicks
Game 6 vs Cavs

Shaq had b2b games where was lesser than what he usually did those playoffs. And one of those games he and LA's backs were against the wall.

Jordan shot poorly vs Cleveland in the closeout game but at least he still tied for the lead in scoring on the road. The one do or die game the Bulls had in the 92 playoffs Jordan absolutely went off.

Shaq otoh had Kobe outperform him in every statistical facet in a game 7 where his team was down by 15 at one point in the 4th quarter.

Just saying if you're going to say that Jordan's performance vs NY was "relatively weak" or that I "nitpicked" a game then imho Shaq's inability to dominate b2b stands out more noticeably imho.

[70sFan]

Fair enough, we can agree to disagree. For what it's worth, I rewatched 2000 WCF a few months ago and Shaq drew absurd level of defensive attention in game 7. For what it's worth, I think game 6 is possibly his best defensive game of this series (he was wildly inconsistent defensively in that series).

[colts18]

Saying Shaq had a bad Game 7 is complete revisionist history. Every single touch he was double teamed. The Blazers game plan was clearly to stop Shaq. Kobe didn't figure in their gameplan. Why else would they put 5' 9", 170 lbs. Damon Stoudemire on Kobe? Who do you think is supposed to score more: A big man getting doubled on every play or a player single guarded by Damon Stoudemire?


Which player do you expect to score more?




A previous post I had on Game 7:

Spoiler:

I finished rewatching the Lakers-Blazers game 7 and focused primarily on what Shaq and Kobe were doing.


Touches in the halfcourt (within 15 feet of basket for Shaq, inside 3 point line for Kobe):

Shaq: 40 touches, 36 doubles (90%), 2 triples (2 assists on them), 7 assists/hockey assists, 12 fouls drawn (2 offball)

Kobe had 36 touches, 14 double teams, 2 triples, 5 assists/hockey assists, 6 fouls drawn (1 in backcourt, 1 garbage time intentional foul)

Sabonis guarded Shaq on 29 touches (3-6 FGA), Grant on 7 (1-1 FG), and Jermaine O'neal on 5 (0-0 FG)

Damon Stoudamire guarded Kobe on 12 of his touches (1-4 FG), Pippen guarded him on 15 touches (5-11 FG), wells guarded him on 7 touches (2-2 FG),

-All 6 of Sabonis fouls came against Shaq including 4 in the 4th quarter.

Man to Man defense:

Shaq's man: 4-14 FG: Sabonis went 2-5 FG, Pippen/Smith went 1-6 FG, Sheed 1-2 FG

Kobe's man 6-16 FG: Damon went 2-4 FG vs Kobe, Pippen 1-4 FG, Smith 2-6 FG, Wells 1-2: 1-5 FGA in iso or postup situations


Help situations:

Shaq allowed 2-7 FG (1 of them goaltend) in the paint when he went down to help.

Pick and Roll:

In general, Shaq played the Pick and Roll the same way that Roy Hibbert did. He either sagged back to the paint or switched onto the PnR ball handler. Overall, when he switched on the PnR, Smith/Pippen went 1-5 FG (1 3P made) against Shaq with 1 other 3 pt made where both Shaq and his teammate left the PnR Ballhandler. None of the ballhandlers blew by Shaq, preferring to take the open long jumper since Shaq was standing near the FT line. Only once did Shaq try to trap the PnR ballhandler, but 2 passes later, the Blazers scored a layup. His PnR D wasn't great, but it wasn't bad either. I would gladly give Steve Smith a 22 foot open long jumper if I was the Lakers.


How the Blazers Defended Shaq:

As you can tell by the numbers above, the Blazers literally doubled Shaq everytime he touched it. The only times he didn't get doubled was when he made a quick move on Sabonis that didn't allow the Blazers the time to double him. Once the pass went in, the Blazers immediately went to double Shaq. They clearly made their priority to stop Shaq at all costs. Most of the doubles either came from Smith, Sheed or Pippen. The Blazers even doubled from the Lakers 3 point shooters and sometimes Kobe. One possession, Pippen doubled down off of Kobe, and Shaq hit Kobe for the open 3. I've never seen a defense give a man this much attention before. I've watched MJ, Kareem, Hakeem play, but none of them ever faced a comparable amount of defenders that Shaq did. In the 1st quarter, Shaq drew 2 quick fouls on Sabonis, then Grant came in and drew 2 fouls. So the Blazers were forced to use young Jermaine O'Neal to guard Shaq some.


How the Blazers Defended Kobe:

In the first half of the 1st and 3rd quarter, the Blazers used Damon Stoudamire to guard Kobe. Stoudamire is listed at 5' 10, 170 lbs. A man that is 8 inches shorter, and 30-40 lbs lighter was guarding Kobe for ~1 whole quarter. No offense, but the Raptors would have never dared to have Damon Stoudamire guarding MJ for a quarter. Kobe made a few plays on him and had a few assists from the doubles, but the lack of respect shows what the Blazers thought of Kobe. For the other 3 quarters of time, Smith/Wells guarded Kobe some, but Pippen guarded Kobe for around ~2 quarters worth of basketball. Pippen did a decent job but Kobe more than held his own. When Stoudamire guarded Kobe, they sent doubles on postup situations. When Pippen/Smith guarded him, they doubled when he drove to the basket.


Shaq's defense:

You can clearly tell that the Blazers had a strategy to minimize Shaq's amazing defensive impact. It was simple: Illega defense and 3 point line. They camped their big men at the 3 point line. Shaq would sag down a bit but due to the archaic NBA rules, Shaq wasn't allowed to go past the FT line. This allowed the Blazers free reign to the paint. That's why Shaq only contested 7 shots in the game. The Blazers would post up iso on the weakside and Shaq wouldn't be allowed to help on time due to the rues. The strategy worked somewhat with Sabonis because Sabonis could shoot the ball. But when Grant/Jermaine O'Neal came in the game, the Blazers played the same strategy despite the fact that both of them couldn't shoot. Shaq still had to respect them due to the rules. The Blazers centers stuck in the perimeter rarely posting up or challenging Shaq on the dribble.

Sheed dominated AC Green/Horry in that game. He was so talented that he had his way with them in the post. Its startling to see Rasheed playing in the post, not the 3 point line. In the 2nd half the Lakers starting sending some doubles to him. Shaq doubled him a few times. One time Sabonis cut to the basket, but Sheed missed the pass. Another time Sheed hit Sabonis who made the long 2 point jumper. Shaq didn't guard Sheed until the end of the 4th quarter when Grant was in the game for a fouled out Sabonis. Sheed missed one shot, and drew a foul vs Shaq

Kobe's defense:

Crazy to see a version of Kobe that is playing good D and focused on that side of the ball. You can see a huge difference between 00 and 13 Kobe. 00 Kobe didn't help out much, but he also didn't play 1 man zone either. Kobe's man D was really good. He was adept at applying pressure to the ballhandler when he crossed halfcourt. He had 3 deflections in the 1st half of the game. The Blazers strategy was to post up him up. 2000 Kobe was smaller and weaker compared to older Kobe. Bonzi Wells had like 2 postups where he manhandled Kobe so the Lakers didn't Kobe on him again. Steve Smith focused mostly on posting up Kobe. Kobe did a job of shutting down those postups.



Overall Impression:

Shaq: You could tell that Blazers came into game 7 with the mindset that Shaq wasn't going to beat them. Shaq wasn't aggressive though its hard to be when you got 2 guys up in your face when you get the ball. Shaq's passing was solid and he found a few cutters and open jumpshots. Shaq's defense got so much respect that the Blazers gameplanned to minimize his defensive impact. The Blazers were scared to even postup or attack Shaq with the ball. Some would say that Shaq had a bad game 7, but I disagree. His impact was evident all game. No center in history could have done what 00 Shaq was doing

Craziest stat: The Blazers only tried to postup Shaq 1 time all game.

Kobe: Kobe was still green but he did have a positive impact. His athleticism allowed him to play better Defense and drive to the basket more than old Kobe. 2000 Kobe couldn't carry a team, but he was a great robin. I didn't see much selfishness or jacking up contested fadeaways from Kobe either.

Lakers supporting cast: The Lakers cast was awful. It was an amazing carry job by Shaq (and lesser extent Kobe and Phil) to lead that team to 67 wins. Both Harper and AC Green were too old to contribute. Horry couldn't play defense. Glen Rice didn't have much an impact in the game. Shaq was carrying a cast similar to 09 LeBron's in terms of talent.


In the next few paragraphs, I'll explain a few plays that show off Shaq and Kobe's impact in the game.

Watch on YouTube

Shaq:

5:40- A play that shows Shaqs impact. Shaq is in the post. AC Green's man sags down to the post even before Green has a shot at throwing it into Shaq. As a result, Green gets a wide open jumper (which he missed) courtesy of the attention Shaq received.

14:06- Shaq gets the ball in the post, Stoudamire and Pippen come down to triple team Shaq. He recognizes it quickly and immediately passes to an open Fisher who makes an easy 15 foot jumper

14:25- An example of a typical PnR vs Shaq. Shaq sags to the FT line allowing Smith to take the jumper. Because of Shaq's length, he is able to contest the shot

15:05- Shaq recognizes the double and hits Horry on a cut to the basket. Horry dunks it.

24:05- An example of the offense the Blazers played. Notice how Jermaine O'Neal is far beyond his shooting range. Due to illegal defense, Shaq has to respect that. The Blazers have the ball at the top of the key, but Shaq cant double Sheed on the other side of the court due to the rules. Once Sheed gets the ball, its too late for Shaq to come and make an impact on Sheed's easy layup

26:19- Kobe throws it to Shaq in the post. Pippen leaves Kobe to double Shaq, Shaq passes it to Kobe who hits the 3 pointer

Kobe:

3:10- Kobe drives on the smaller Stoudamire and draws a double team. Kobe hits Harper in the baseline for the easy jumper

31:00- Kobe's active D bothers Wells. Kobe pocks the ball out of Wells hands when he tries to post Kobe.

1:13:45- Kobe shows off his athleticism. The Blazers player drives to the basket but Kobe comes from the weakside and has a monster block.

[falcolombardi]

not a fan of the focus on game 7's to be honest

every game counts the same in the total count