Jokic vs KG: Simply as a passer and playmaker

TT8198 · Post #1 » by **TT8198** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:52 pm

I, like most of us lean Jokic, but I think KG gets overlooked when we talk about greatest passing big men. KG was a elite passer at his position. Jokic might be goat in this category but curious if anyone leans KG and would love to discuss. Don't forget KG actually did run point in Minny out of necessity at times

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70sFan · Post #2 » by **70sFan** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:45 pm

Garnett is great, but not in Jokic's class.

ty 4191 · Post #3 » by **ty 4191** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:21 pm

Jokic. Not even close, folks.

WestGOAT · Post #4 » by **WestGOAT** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:36 pm

Care to explain why? Jokic forces double teams which either lead to an open teammate under the basket for a layup/dunk or an open shooter behind the three point line.

Was KG able to pressure defences so much? What i recall was that he was mainly passing to teammates that would end up shooting from the mid-range. How is that close to Jokic?

TT8198 · Post #5 » by **TT8198** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 4:20 pm

70sFan wrote:Garnett is great, but not in Jokic's class.

Yae I figured most would lean this way. Again even I agree hes prolly the greatest passer as a big man I've ever seen. But KF gets severely overlooked in this category. I'm sure your familiar with Ben Taylor and his Backpicks Top 40 list where he does a phenomenal job breaking down the greatest players ever. In that he stated, " in tracking over 1,000 of KGs possessions from 03 to 08 his rate of quality passes was near Stockton's". That's insane. He also called him "the most prolific creator of of any big man in history" . That's prolly pre Jokic but that's pretty lofty and I don't think Jokic miles better than that.

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Post #6 » by **trex_8063** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 4:21 pm

And among 'above 6'7" but not quite bigs', Scottie Pippen was a really nice passer/playmaker......but I wouldn't compare him to Magic. That's roughly the difference here.

No crticism to Pippen/Garnett. It's simply not close, though.

LukaTheGOAT · Post #7 » by **LukaTheGOAT** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 4:55 pm

I think Jokic is closer to Magic as a passer than he is KG.

JVL · Post #8 » by **JVL** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 4:57 pm

This is a ridiculous thread. Jokic is in the conversation with the best playmakers and passers of all time, at any position.

TT8198 · Post #9 » by **TT8198** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 5:17 pm

The responses in the thread only further my point that ppl severely underrate KG as a playmaker. I'd like for someone to respond to my previous comment for all saying "this is ridiculous" or "Jokic is closer to Magic ". Again according to Ben Taylor KG was passing was near the level of JOHN STOCKTON'S from 03 to 08. His rate of good passes was over 4 per 100 comparable to Jason Kidd. This means KG is on the level of Stockton and Kidd as a passer. I may agree that Jokic is better but you guys are completely underselling KG. I highly suggest you guys read Ben Taylor's Backpicks Top 40 on KG

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Post #10 » by **tsherkin** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 5:30 pm

TT8198 wrote:The responses in the thread only further my point that ppl severely underrate KG as a playmaker. I'd like for someone to respond to my previous comment for all saying "this is ridiculous" or "Jokic is closer to Magic ". Again according to Ben Taylor KG was passing was near the level of JOHN STOCKTON'S from 03 to 08. His rate of good passes was over 4 per 100 comparable to Jason Kidd. This means KG is on the level of Stockton and Kidd as a passer. I may agree that Jokic is better but you guys are completely underselling KG. I highly suggest you guys read Ben Taylor's Backpicks Top 40 on KG

Okay fair, but if you look at his Passer rating, Garnett's at a 7.1 to Jokic's 8.7. Magic is at 9.9, so he would LITERALLY be closer to Magic than to Garnett using Ben's metric.

TT8198 · Post #11 » by **TT8198** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:29 pm

tsherkin wrote:
TT8198 wrote:The responses in the thread only further my point that ppl severely underrate KG as a playmaker. I'd like for someone to respond to my previous comment for all saying "this is ridiculous" or "Jokic is closer to Magic ". Again according to Ben Taylor KG was passing was near the level of JOHN STOCKTON'S from 03 to 08. His rate of good passes was over 4 per 100 comparable to Jason Kidd. This means KG is on the level of Stockton and Kidd as a passer. I may agree that Jokic is better but you guys are completely underselling KG. I highly suggest you guys read Ben Taylor's Backpicks Top 40 on KG

Okay fair, but if you look at his Passer rating, Garnett's at a 7.1 to Jokic's 8.7. Magic is at 9.9, so he would LITERALLY be closer to Magic than to Garnett using Ben's metric.

That's a fair point also but that just means we agree Jokic is better. I still feel KG is in Jokic's class. We're talking about a big man that is capable of passing like Kidd and Stockton there is not many bigs thats even in that class he's in there based on rarity alone. Again possibly pre Jokic Ben Taylor said KG is "the most prolific creator of any big man in history".

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Post #12 » by **tsherkin** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:37 pm

TT8198 wrote:That's a fair point also but that just means we agree Jokic is better. I still feel KG is in Jokic's class.

Playmaking was a mainstay of KG's offensive value, particularly since he wasn't really a stunner as a scoring force because of his reliance on long jumpers. His overall offensive impact is undeniable and that passing, and the defensive draw of his range, were no small part of that, so it certainly passes the smell test as a discussion worth having.

TT8198 · Post #13 » by **TT8198** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 7:25 pm

tsherkin wrote:
TT8198 wrote:That's a fair point also but that just means we agree Jokic is better. I still feel KG is in Jokic's class.

Playmaking was a mainstay of KG's offensive value, particularly since he wasn't really a stunner as a scoring force because of his reliance on long jumpers. His overall offensive impact is undeniable and that passing, and the defensive draw of his range, were no small part of that, so it certainly passes the smell test as a discussion worth having.

Agreed

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Jaivl · Post #14 » by **Jaivl** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:28 pm

TT8198 wrote:The responses in the thread only further my point that ppl severely underrate KG as a playmaker. I'd like for someone to respond to my previous comment for all saying "this is ridiculous" or "Jokic is closer to Magic ". Again according to Ben Taylor KG was passing was near the level of JOHN STOCKTON'S from 03 to 08. His rate of good passes was over 4 per 100 comparable to Jason Kidd. This means KG is on the level of Stockton and Kidd as a passer. I may agree that Jokic is better but you guys are completely underselling KG. I highly suggest you guys read Ben Taylor's Backpicks Top 40 on KG

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I mean, I do think Stockton is closer to Garnett than to Jokic in terms of passing, so it's still consistent there.

dygaction · Post #15 » by **dygaction** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:47 pm

TT8198 wrote:The responses in the thread only further my point that ppl severely underrate KG as a playmaker. I'd like for someone to respond to my previous comment for all saying "this is ridiculous" or "Jokic is closer to Magic ". Again according to Ben Taylor KG was passing was near the level of JOHN STOCKTON'S from 03 to 08. His rate of good passes was over 4 per 100 comparable to Jason Kidd. This means KG is on the level of Stockton and Kidd as a passer. I may agree that Jokic is better but you guys are completely underselling KG. I highly suggest you guys read Ben Taylor's Backpicks Top 40 on KG

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He could have been underrated, but let's not jump from there and overrate him either. There are Draymond, Giannis, Bam, Divac, Webber, and Diaw level players that should be compared against KG than him to Jokic.

skones · Post #16 » by **skones** » Sun May 1, 2022 12:46 am

TT8198 wrote:That's a fair point also but that just means we agree Jokic is better. I still feel KG is in Jokic's class. We're talking about a big man that is capable of passing like Kidd and Stockton there is not many bigs thats even in that class he's in there based on rarity alone. Again possibly pre Jokic Ben Taylor said KG is "the most prolific creator of any big man in history".

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But he didn't.

falcolombardi · Post #17 » by **falcolombardi** » Sun May 1, 2022 1:17 am

i have garnett and jokic as comparable players

but if the question is specifically playmaking then is jokic no question

he is the best playmaking big of all time, only bird and other guys who are "bigs" in a very loose definition could challenge that

garnett is a great passer tho but jokic vision and scoring threat that enables his passing are a level above

i see garnett a bit more like a karl malone level passer

Post #18 » by **tsherkin** » Sun May 1, 2022 7:11 am

skones wrote:
TT8198 wrote:That's a fair point also but that just means we agree Jokic is better. I still feel KG is in Jokic's class. We're talking about a big man that is capable of passing like Kidd and Stockton there is not many bigs thats even in that class he's in there based on rarity alone. Again possibly pre Jokic Ben Taylor said KG is "the most prolific creator of any big man in history".

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But he didn't.

Because he was more of a scoring threat than either and more of a dynamic passer than Stockton.

LessEyeTest · Post #19 » by **LessEyeTest** » Sun May 1, 2022 10:43 am

Garnett goes down as one of the greatest big man passers of all-time and probably the 2nd best passing PF of his generation behind Webber. Jokic goes down as one of the greatest passers of all-time, point blank. With that said, I wonder how much more highly viewed guys like KG and Webber would be as a hub in a modern offense with much more spacing. In other words, maybe their full potential wasn't unleashed.

Post #20 » by **tsherkin** » Sun May 1, 2022 11:34 am

LessEyeTest wrote:Garnett goes down as one of the greatest big man passers of all-time and probably the 2nd best passing PF of his generation behind Webber. Jokic goes down as one of the greatest passers of all-time, point blank. With that said, I wonder how much more highly viewed guys like KG and Webber would be as a hub in a modern offense with much more spacing. In other words, maybe their full potential wasn't unleashed.

2000-2008, Garnett averaged +5.3 OBPM, with a 3-year peak of +6.0, +6.8 and +6.5. Obviously, OBPM has its flaws, but that's about what a second-tier perimeter volume scorer who can move the ball reasonably well typically accomplishes. Couple of 10+ OWS seasons in there. 99-109 TS+, too; lots of variance, but that was his best set of volume scoring and efficiency. Garnett could do good things for an offense, and he didn't not have a ton to work with until he went to the Celtics, 04 notwithstanding. So yeah, he moved the needle pretty well, and would likely look a lot better on a modern offense. He certainly did well in the PnR.