Post-Mortem: 2021-22 Denver Nuggets

[vital_signs]

Even if MPJ's back issues persist this team is dangerous. Jokic has a game that will age well, and he's still young af, and Murray should come back strong. Hard to see them not making it to the finals at least once.

[Peregrine01]

The Nuggets are in a strange situation. They have one bad max contract and one really bad max contract. In most situations, that would absolutely sink a franchise for years but all of that is negated by having an all-time great on their team.

Still, I don't think they're locks to be contenders even if their 2nd and 3rd best offensive players come back healthy. Jokic has proven that he can carry a team devoid of offensive talent to a top 6 offense pretty much by himself. They need to do some major roster adjustments to shore up practically all aspects of their defense, from coaching to POA to rim protection. You don't need all that great an offensive roster when you have Jokic...Nuggets needs some defenders on their team.

[Wigginstime]

Deleted

[Wigginstime]

Personally I think Malone deserves a season where they're healthy before we know how far he can take them BUT I do think perhaps that the injuries can't all be passed off as bad luck. At some point you have to ask why this is happening. too many injury prone players with issues on the roster? Training and coaching not preparing players? Physios and team doctors not performing? To a degree, you make your own luck in sport, if you have half your roster constantly banged up, you're doing something wrong.

Their inability to develop a load management plan to help Gary Harris stay healthy makes me extremely uncomfortable that they will be able to balance Murray and MPJ.

The fact that both Murray and MPJ had "setbacks" right before the playoffs makes me wonder if they weren't already pushing them to hard to try and return.

[WRau1]

Just get healthy and add a quality big via the MLE. DEN is in a pretty good situation as long as injuries stop popping up.

[AleksandarN]

I'm baffled by the levels of hate for the Denver front office in this thread. I do agree that the early MPJ extension was a mistake, though they really need to keep him as they are going to be pretty capped with Murray's extension, Gordon on the books, and Jokic's upcoming super max. He's a great shooter and even his much maligned defense was improving, so I think he's worth his contract if he plays, there's just the big risk of him not doing so.

But aside from that, what do you want from a front office? What roster isn't going to look bad 2-8 if you take 2 of the best 3 players out of the rotation (plus another rotation guy in Dozier)? They had drafted/developed Gary Harris, who would have been a perfect fit with this team save he got hurt and wasn't the same after; the Gordon trade was a useful one. Jerami Grant turned down the same contract in Denver that he accepted in Detroit because he wanted a more central role. You can't really blame the front office for any of that. Their bargain basement pickups (Rivers, Boogie, etc.) all worked out pretty well really, you just aren't getting high level talent that way. I did think they should have converted Devon Reed to a full contract and cut someone (probably Facu), but on well.

Going forward, Jokic/Murray/MPJ/Gordon is a solid core and their age timing is good. As a player, I like MPJ more than most. His defense improved more than people realize and his strength is providing a bit of weakside shot blocking which is helpful for the Nuggets. Plus he's a good rebounder and that is useful for the Nuggets as it means that Jokic isn't battling multiple guys constantly. Bones looks like he'll be a great bench spark plug and I think Monte Morris is a very good second string point guard. Zeke Nnaji looked like he was developing before his knee problems. I don't know he'll ever be starter quality, but I think he can develop into a useful rotation player.

Jamychal and Jeff Green both have player options for next year that I imagine they'll exercise. I wouldn't worry much about them as they aren't good, but as long as they're bench players not seeing crucial minutes, they're fine and can eat some regular season time.

I would try to keep Boogie and sign Devon Reed to a real contract. I'm ambivalent to Rivers/Cancar. I think they're totally fine though for end of the bench guys if the price is right. You just can't have Rivers playing a central role on the team.

The core player I'd try to move on from is Barton. He's not good. He's also not terrible, but the balance of what he brings isn't what the Nuggets need. I'd try to send him out for someone who can play perimeter defense even if they can't score. Facu is also likely gone. I wouldn't try very hard to bring back Forbes, though again, if it was cheap, it's not a big deal.

For the Nuggets first round pick, I would definitely be targeting a perimeter/wing defender. I would be willing to pair the pick with Barton if a starting level defensive guard/wing was available (edit: forgot the Nuggets owe a protected 23 first, so they would have to pick the player for the other team then trade).

I've heard lots of rumors that PJ Dozier will be back. He was traded, but it was essentially an injured player/cap relief for assets trade. He showed up at at least one of the games in the Warriors series, so I suspect he'll be back. I've also heard some rumors that Gary Harris might be a target as he hits free agency, but I suspect this is further from reality.

So the 15 man roster would look like.
Jokic
Murray
MPJ
Gordon
X
Bones
Morris
Green -PO
Green - PO
Boogie
Reed
X - Rivers/Cancar?
X - Dozier?
X - FRP

that's actually pretty good in my mind. Get a defensive wing/guard and if you have good health, you have a chance to be a legitimate contender.

I would sign Garry Harris on the cheap. He is a good defender and already has chemistry with Jokic

[MarcusBrody]

I'm baffled by the levels of hate for the Denver front office in this thread. I do agree that the early MPJ extension was a mistake, though they really need to keep him as they are going to be pretty capped with Murray's extension, Gordon on the books, and Jokic's upcoming super max. He's a great shooter and even his much maligned defense was improving, so I think he's worth his contract if he plays, there's just the big risk of him not doing so.

But aside from that, what do you want from a front office? What roster isn't going to look bad 2-8 if you take 2 of the best 3 players out of the rotation (plus another rotation guy in Dozier)? They had drafted/developed Gary Harris, who would have been a perfect fit with this team save he got hurt and wasn't the same after; the Gordon trade was a useful one. Jerami Grant turned down the same contract in Denver that he accepted in Detroit because he wanted a more central role. You can't really blame the front office for any of that. Their bargain basement pickups (Rivers, Boogie, etc.) all worked out pretty well really, you just aren't getting high level talent that way. I did think they should have converted Devon Reed to a full contract and cut someone (probably Facu), but on well.

Going forward, Jokic/Murray/MPJ/Gordon is a solid core and their age timing is good. As a player, I like MPJ more than most. His defense improved more than people realize and his strength is providing a bit of weakside shot blocking which is helpful for the Nuggets. Plus he's a good rebounder and that is useful for the Nuggets as it means that Jokic isn't battling multiple guys constantly. Bones looks like he'll be a great bench spark plug and I think Monte Morris is a very good second string point guard. Zeke Nnaji looked like he was developing before his knee problems. I don't know he'll ever be starter quality, but I think he can develop into a useful rotation player.

Jamychal and Jeff Green both have player options for next year that I imagine they'll exercise. I wouldn't worry much about them as they aren't good, but as long as they're bench players not seeing crucial minutes, they're fine and can eat some regular season time.

I would try to keep Boogie and sign Devon Reed to a real contract. I'm ambivalent to Rivers/Cancar. I think they're totally fine though for end of the bench guys if the price is right. You just can't have Rivers playing a central role on the team.

The core player I'd try to move on from is Barton. He's not good. He's also not terrible, but the balance of what he brings isn't what the Nuggets need. I'd try to send him out for someone who can play perimeter defense even if they can't score. Facu is also likely gone. I wouldn't try very hard to bring back Forbes, though again, if it was cheap, it's not a big deal.

For the Nuggets first round pick, I would definitely be targeting a perimeter/wing defender. I would be willing to pair the pick with Barton if a starting level defensive guard/wing was available (edit: forgot the Nuggets owe a protected 23 first, so they would have to pick the player for the other team then trade).

I've heard lots of rumors that PJ Dozier will be back. He was traded, but it was essentially an injured player/cap relief for assets trade. He showed up at at least one of the games in the Warriors series, so I suspect he'll be back. I've also heard some rumors that Gary Harris might be a target as he hits free agency, but I suspect this is further from reality.

So the 15 man roster would look like.
Jokic
Murray
MPJ
Gordon
X
Bones
Morris
Green -PO
Green - PO
Boogie
Reed
X - Rivers/Cancar?
X - Dozier?
X - FRP

that's actually pretty good in my mind. Get a defensive wing/guard and if you have good health, you have a chance to be a legitimate contender.

I would sign Garry Harris on the cheap. He is a good defender and already has chemistry with Jokic

I hope they do. I have no idea what he will get in free agency. I don't think I watched a single Magic game this year, so I don' t have any sense of how he's playing, but it doesn't seem that he is setting the world on fire.

[Mickey8]

He can't shoot , he's always injured , except around the time to sign a new contract. I would rather have Dozier back than him.

[MarcusBrody]

He can't shoot , he's always injured , except around the time to sign a new contract. I would rather have Dozier back than him.

Harris? He shot 38.4% from 3 on 5 attempts a game last year. Of the Nuggets higher volume three point shooters, only Morris topped that this year. Health is an issue of course, but I still think he'd be a fine depth piece.

Edit: Bryn Forbes was also above him in percentage. I missed him as I was looking at totals and he joined late.

[Richard Miller]

He can't shoot , he's always injured , except around the time to sign a new contract. I would rather have Dozier back than him.

Harris? He shot 38.4% from 3 on 5 attempts a game last year. Of the Nuggets higher volume three point shooters, only Morris topped that this year. Health is an issue of course, but I still think he'd be a fine depth piece.

Yea on a tanking team with zero expectations, not convinced yet his % would translate on a better team (whether Nuggets or any other playoff team)

[The Rebel]

He can't shoot , he's always injured , except around the time to sign a new contract. I would rather have Dozier back than him.

Harris? He shot 38.4% from 3 on 5 attempts a game last year. Of the Nuggets higher volume three point shooters, only Morris topped that this year. Health is an issue of course, but I still think he'd be a fine depth piece.

Edit: Bryn Forbes was also above him in percentage. I missed him as I was looking at totals and he joined late.

If we can get him for the taxpayer MLE I would sign Harris, but I would also bring back Dozier and Reed, we desperately need 2 or 3 perimeter defenders that do their best against guards. That being said I think a lot of people romanticize the idea of Harris, he is never going to be what he was showing before the hip injuries. This has been his healthiest year since the hip injury, and he still missed 21 games, and came off the bench for just over half the games he did play. He is not the long term answer at starting SG for us for anybody else at this point, but is fine if you have some strong depth around him.

[The Rebel]

I'm baffled by the levels of hate for the Denver front office in this thread. I do agree that the early MPJ extension was a mistake, though they really need to keep him as they are going to be pretty capped with Murray's extension, Gordon on the books, and Jokic's upcoming super max. He's a great shooter and even his much maligned defense was improving, so I think he's worth his contract if he plays, there's just the big risk of him not doing so.

But aside from that, what do you want from a front office? What roster isn't going to look bad 2-8 if you take 2 of the best 3 players out of the rotation (plus another rotation guy in Dozier)? They had drafted/developed Gary Harris, who would have been a perfect fit with this team save he got hurt and wasn't the same after; the Gordon trade was a useful one. Jerami Grant turned down the same contract in Denver that he accepted in Detroit because he wanted a more central role. You can't really blame the front office for any of that. Their bargain basement pickups (Rivers, Boogie, etc.) all worked out pretty well really, you just aren't getting high level talent that way. I did think they should have converted Devon Reed to a full contract and cut someone (probably Facu), but on well.

We agree here, the Nuggets front office is not the problem and most blaming them either do not know the full story with the injuries or are looking to blame anybody associated with the Nuggets. Also I will say that Reed was kept on a 2 way deal because of salary cap reasons, the Nuggets waited a few days to sign Cousins to 10 day contracts to avoid the luxury tax, no way were they going to convert Reed to a full contract when they didn't have too, but that is on ownership not the front office.

Going forward, Jokic/Murray/MPJ/Gordon is a solid core and their age timing is good. As a player, I like MPJ more than most. His defense improved more than people realize and his strength is providing a bit of weakside shot blocking which is helpful for the Nuggets. Plus he's a good rebounder and that is useful for the Nuggets as it means that Jokic isn't battling multiple guys constantly. Bones looks like he'll be a great bench spark plug and I think Monte Morris is a very good second string point guard. Zeke Nnaji looked like he was developing before his knee problems. I don't know he'll ever be starter quality, but I think he can develop into a useful rotation player.

I agree the 4 guys is a good core, I disagree with your assessment of the bench. Personally I think Morris and Bones are both at their best at PG, and would actually look to move on from Morris, see if you cannot get a defensive starting SG for him.

I remember a graphic that Altitude showed about a game before Nnaji got hurt that showed Nnaji was our 2nd best perimeter defender, with his shooting I think he would make a good starter next year, and consider him the reason that we can gamble on MPJ's back. Having a 43% 3 point shooting and good defensive PF that can start in place of MPJ is important and something I think will be a long term help.

Jamychal and Jeff Green both have player options for next year that I imagine they'll exercise. I wouldn't worry much about them as they aren't good, but as long as they're bench players not seeing crucial minutes, they're fine and can eat some regular season time.

Jeff Green deserves to be here another year, he played well in a role that did not fit his game, and for the money he is fine. JaMychael is a guy that I think needs to be shipped out if he opts in. While JaMychael is a solid bench 4, he struggles in our system and is not good at rotations or protecting the paint, I do think that Malone will continue to overplay him though and keep the young guys on the bench, so he needs to move on.

I would try to keep Boogie and sign Devon Reed to a real contract. I'm ambivalent to Rivers/Cancar. I think they're totally fine though for end of the bench guys if the price is right. You just can't have Rivers playing a central role on the team.

I agree with keeping Boogie, but do not see any reason to sign Reed to a regular contract if you can keep him as a 2 way guy. I also think you have to bring back both Cancar and Rivers, Cancar before he got hurt had earned a spot in the rotation, with his shooting, his ability to create his own shot, and his high IQ defense I think he is someone we need off the bench next year. Rivers will likely sign for the minimum and is professional enough to not bitch if he doesn't get played for weeks, hopefully he rarely sees the court but he is a nice guy to have as your 6th guard.

The core player I'd try to move on from is Barton. He's not good. He's also not terrible, but the balance of what he brings isn't what the Nuggets need. I'd try to send him out for someone who can play perimeter defense even if they can't score. Facu is also likely gone. I wouldn't try very hard to bring back Forbes, though again, if it was cheap, it's not a big deal.

I agree Barton needs replaced by a defensive SG, and Facu and Forbes would both be gone if it was up to me. Facu obviously is not fast or big enough to be effective anymore and Forbes while being a shooter is just so bad on defense that I have a hard time having him as the primary backup SG.

For the Nuggets first round pick, I would definitely be targeting a perimeter/wing defender. I would be willing to pair the pick with Barton if a starting level defensive guard/wing was available (edit: forgot the Nuggets owe a protected 23 first, so they would have to pick the player for the other team then trade).

I think they need to just draft BPA, no team with contender aspirations should be depending on a late 1st round pick to provide any help their 1st year and long term we don't really know the needs as our current young guys need development time.

I've heard lots of rumors that PJ Dozier will be back. He was traded, but it was essentially an injured player/cap relief for assets trade. He showed up at at least one of the games in the Warriors series, so I suspect he'll be back. I've also heard some rumors that Gary Harris might be a target as he hits free agency, but I suspect this is further from reality.

I have heard the same about Dozier and would welcome him back, and already discussed Harris, but would be fine with him back as well. I however am not really fine with either being the primary starter at SG without multiple perimeter defenders off the bench, neither have been the picture of dependable health wise.

So the 15 man roster would look like.
Jokic
Murray
MPJ
Gordon
X
Bones
Morris
Green -PO
Green - PO
Boogie
Reed
X - Rivers/Cancar?
X - Dozier?
X - FRP

that's actually pretty good in my mind. Get a defensive wing/guard and if you have good health, you have a chance to be a legitimate contender.

I would change that to this
Jokic
Murray
MPJ
Gordon
X
Bones
X
Jeff Green -PO
NNaji
Boogie
Rivers
Cancar
FRP
X

2 way
Reed
X

With Morris, Barton, (if he opts in) JaMychael Green on the trading block for a starting SG and more picks or prospects.

[Mickey8]

He can't shoot , he's always injured , except around the time to sign a new contract. I would rather have Dozier back than him.

Harris? He shot 38.4% from 3 on 5 attempts a game last year. Of the Nuggets higher volume three point shooters, only Morris topped that this year. Health is an issue of course, but I still think he'd be a fine depth piece.

Edit: Bryn Forbes was also above him in percentage. I missed him as I was looking at totals and he joined late.

Even on the tanking team like Orlando , he's shooting is not that impressive either. He was dreadful last two season in Denver when he was able to play.

[GeorgeSears]

The Nuggets are in a strange situation. They have one bad max contract and one really bad max contract. In most situations, that would absolutely sink a franchise for years but all of that is negated by having an all-time great on their team.

Still, I don't think they're locks to be contenders even if their 2nd and 3rd best offensive players come back healthy. Jokic has proven that he can carry a team devoid of offensive talent to a top 6 offense pretty much by himself. They need to do some major roster adjustments to shore up practically all aspects of their defense, from coaching to POA to rim protection. You don't need all that great an offensive roster when you have Jokic...Nuggets needs some defenders on their team.

If Murray returns and plays like he did in 20/21, the Nuggets are going to be a contender.

Last season, with Murray and Jokic on the floor, Nuggets ORTG was 125 (+12 net rating), with Murray, Jokic and Porter it was 127 (+14 net rating).

Having Porter back would be a great boost offensively, but just having Murray back takes this team to another level. It puts a lot of pressure on the other team's pg to actually have to play defense.

[MarcusBrody]

He can't shoot , he's always injured , except around the time to sign a new contract. I would rather have Dozier back than him.

Harris? He shot 38.4% from 3 on 5 attempts a game last year. Of the Nuggets higher volume three point shooters, only Morris topped that this year. Health is an issue of course, but I still think he'd be a fine depth piece.

Edit: Bryn Forbes was also above him in percentage. I missed him as I was looking at totals and he joined late.

Even on the tanking team like Orlando , he's shooting is not that impressive either. He was dreadful last two season in Denver when he was able to play.

Do you think shooting is somehow easier in a tanking team? I don't see why we'd take older data points vs. newer ones.

[MarcusBrody]

We agree here, the Nuggets front office is not the problem and most blaming them either do not know the full story with the injuries or are looking to blame anybody associated with the Nuggets. Also I will say that Reed was kept on a 2 way deal because of salary cap reasons, the Nuggets waited a few days to sign Cousins to 10 day contracts to avoid the luxury tax, no way were they going to convert Reed to a full contract when they didn't have too, but that is on ownership not the front office.


I agree the 4 guys is a good core, I disagree with your assessment of the bench. Personally I think Morris and Bones are both at their best at PG, and would actually look to move on from Morris, see if you cannot get a defensive starting SG for him.

I remember a graphic that Altitude showed about a game before Nnaji got hurt that showed Nnaji was our 2nd best perimeter defender, with his shooting I think he would make a good starter next year, and consider him the reason that we can gamble on MPJ's back. Having a 43% 3 point shooting and good defensive PF that can start in place of MPJ is important and something I think will be a long term help.

Jamychal and Jeff Green both have player options for next year that I imagine they'll exercise. I wouldn't worry much about them as they aren't good, but as long as they're bench players not seeing crucial minutes, they're fine and can eat some regular season time.

Jeff Green deserves to be here another year, he played well in a role that did not fit his game, and for the money he is fine. JaMychael is a guy that I think needs to be shipped out if he opts in. While JaMychael is a solid bench 4, he struggles in our system and is not good at rotations or protecting the paint, I do think that Malone will continue to overplay him though and keep the young guys on the bench, so he needs to move on.

I agree with keeping Boogie, but do not see any reason to sign Reed to a regular contract if you can keep him as a 2 way guy. I also think you have to bring back both Cancar and Rivers, Cancar before he got hurt had earned a spot in the rotation, with his shooting, his ability to create his own shot, and his high IQ defense I think he is someone we need off the bench next year. Rivers will likely sign for the minimum and is professional enough to not bitch if he doesn't get played for weeks, hopefully he rarely sees the court but he is a nice guy to have as your 6th guard.

I agree Barton needs replaced by a defensive SG, and Facu and Forbes would both be gone if it was up to me. Facu obviously is not fast or big enough to be effective anymore and Forbes while being a shooter is just so bad on defense that I have a hard time having him as the primary backup SG.

I have heard the same about Dozier and would welcome him back, and already discussed Harris, but would be fine with him back as well. I however am not really fine with either being the primary starter at SG without multiple perimeter defenders off the bench, neither have been the picture of dependable health wise.

I would change that to this
Jokic
Murray
MPJ
Gordon
X
Bones
X
Jeff Green -PO
NNaji
Boogie
Rivers
Cancar
FRP
X

2 way
Reed
X

With Morris, Barton, (if he opts in) JaMychael Green on the trading block for a starting SG and more picks or prospects.

I would be totally fine with Morris being on the trading block if they could get a useful return. I do think that Bones and Morris are such different players, though, that their both being point guards in theory isn't really a big issue. And as the team wasn't exactly flush with three point shooting last year, I wouldn't be super eager to trade Morris unless I really liked what Denver was getting back.

JaMychael Green I'd be fine trading, I just don't know who would offer much for him, which is why I suspect he will opt in.

I admit that I had forgotten that they'd permanently changed how many games a guy could play on a Two Way Contract (from 45 Days with the team to 50 Games). I was thinking it was just for Covid last year. That would make it more plausible to try to keep him on a two way, but I don't know. He seemed like a useful player to me and I really think he would have gotten minutes against GS's small lineups had he been on a normal contract. I'd try to get him on a minimum 1+1 and just not worry about trying to decide which stretches was worth calling him up for. He's a restricted free agent after coming off the two-way, right? I would be somewhat surprised if no team was willing to sign him for the minimum.

[Richard Miller]

Do you think shooting is somehow easier in a tanking team? I don't see why we'd take older data points vs. newer ones.

For sure it's easier, not like anyone is going to double him or game plan for him when they are going to be down 20 by the half time

[velkisimo]

I was looking at the list of FA SGs that would be affordable and be a good fit for Nuggets and that list looks bare. Would about Gary Payton II? Warriors fans rave about his defense and he can certainly hit a 3 at decent rate (I understand playoffs was an outlier but even for the season he is almost at 36%). I dont see him asking for a ton of money.

[MarcusBrody]

Do you think shooting is somehow easier in a tanking team? I don't see why we'd take older data points vs. newer ones.

For sure it's easier, not like anyone is going to double him or game plan for him when they are going to be down 20 by the half time

I assure you that no one is going to double or game plan for Gary Harris on a team feature Nikola Jokic, Jamal Murray, and several other better players.

[The Rebel]

I was looking at the list of FA SGs that would be affordable and be a good fit for Nuggets and that list looks bare. Would about Gary Payton II? Warriors fans rave about his defense and he can certainly hit a 3 at decent rate (I understand playoffs was an outlier but even for the season he is almost at 36%). I dont see him asking for a ton of money.

Payton II is fine for a bench defender, but I think we are going to have to find a starter through trade.