Thoughts in General, Rumors, etc 5.0

[zimpy27]

McDaniels is looking like the new OG Anunoby. Where both teams are just extremely high on them. I wouldn't touch them in a trade

In Anunoby's defense he was knocking 3s at 40% for 2 years in a row, defending 1-5, and scoring 16 ppg at 60% TS before we started hyping him like mad. Sadly his numbers took a tumble this year (hopefully because of injuries and he will bounce back).

I definitely recall him bring hyped well before last season when he hit the 16ppg, I'm talking since the championship.

OG is definitely better than McDaniels and still is very valuable. My point is with teams being very high on them vs other teams perspectives. It makes it impossible.

[loserX]

This is not a promising list of finalists for the Kings…

Yeah, not impressed at all. Brown should at least get the team playing better defense, but is he really a head coach? I'd be VERY wary of Jackson, and Clifford is about as vanilla as the options get.

[eminence]

Yeah when a guy has only made 36 3s on the year I don't particularly care what he shot in that one season unless it's in line with prior sample. Zooming further in and shrinking that already small shooting sample seems counterproductive. As a reminder 3 point shooting takes about SEVEN HUNDRED AND FIFTY attempts to truly stabilize.

I think McDaniels is pretty clearly a different class of prospect vs Josh Green even though I don't *really* think that's what Chuck was trying to argue

McDaniel's doesn't have a great shooting track record at about 34% on 450 3s but that's significantly better than 31% on 103. Green is a better defender but McDaniels is 6'9 vs 6'5 and has a valuable intersection of shooting-defense-size

That said, he is not a headliner in a Mitchell deal

The bolded is a fully understandable take that I may even be in agreement with.

Good then we can all agree.

I definitely wasn't arguing Green > McDaniels. I used Green specifically because he's seen as a 2nd round pick trade value guy who according to the traits that make McDaniels super valuable has shown more this year. And that's ignoring Green's playmaking that McDaniels lacks.

I'm just saying if Green is worth say pick 40, McDaniels can't be worth say pick 3 which is what the deal in question was essentially valuing him at.

I'm sorry to say Chuck, it doesn't sound like we wound up in agreement.

I'd value Green higher than that (pick in the 20s is where I'd be considering it based on the team), if you'd deal for him #40 I'd take him off your hands in a second.

I'm saying I'm up in the air on whether McDaniels can be the central piece in a Mitchell deal, I'm looking at him as a ~7th pick value. 3rd pick type prospect + notable additional value is I think a pretty easy yes for Utah if they're at all interested in dealing Mitchell (from my perspective).

[HartfordWhalers]

oh, so my page of rant could have just been a jay one liner?

{That means I was right, right?)

[eminence]

I've seen Jackson, Brown and Clifford for the Kings. Anyone I've missed?

And yeah, an uninspiring list for me, none are terrible (though I view Jackson as fairly risky), but I just don't see it.

[zimpy27]

There is so much discussion about defense and prospects on here, and pretty much all in my not so humble opinion is just malarky. And hopes and dreams.

For 6? years Wiggins was called a good defender because he had the [physical] tools.
It takes bigs years to adjust.
It takes smalls years to adjust.
He has the tools.
It doesn't show up in the box score or plus minus, but waTcH this one Utuber clipppppppppsssssssss!!!!

My experience watching prospects is they tend to either start off good,or they never get great.

Thinking of the Sixers, Covington, Noel, Embiid, Thybulle all were monsters on that end immediately. So, 2 centers, a sf/pf and a sg/sf (just because he cannot shoot).

Oh I have seen players get better. It is common to get somewhat better (Wiggins was a fun starting example because he didn't seem to at least at Minnesota).

A ton of the NBA has defensive tools. Jonathan Isaac was injured, but great at defense from the get go. MArcus Smart has been great since the get go.

When was the last time a player was just not at all it and became elite as a defender?

Instead of hyping young guys are 3 and D, I feel like we need some term for "2 and solid". Because that should also be a thing. In fact, more often.

I agree and top defenders usually show out on impact stats pretty early. Within first 3 seasons.

Occasionally an top level player that has high IQ will develop elite defense a little later.

[Resistance]

If Utah trades Mitchell, then I have them taking at least a minor step backwards because it will be much easier to find a four to five quarters trade for him than a $1 for $1 trade.

Since the Soup of the Day is Mitchell to Minnesota...

I have Russell remaining in Minnesota an issue because I have him not happy being the #4 player behind Edwards, Mitchell and Towns.

Russell for Mitchell helps on salary matching, but Russell is far far away from being the headliner in a trade for Mitchell level players.


So the best that I came up with is to make the trade bigger with Conley (or Clarkson & Rudy Gay) included.

Utah
In: Russell, Beasley, McDaniels, #19 (with contract*), future picks as needed
Out: Mitchell, Conley

Minnesota
In: Mitchell, Conley
Out: Russell, Beasley, McDaniels, #19 (with contract*), future picks as needed


Donovan Mitchell.....$30,351,780
Mike Conley............$22,680,000
_______________________________
...........................$53,031,780


D'Angelo Russell........$31,377,750
Malik Beasley............$15,458,035
Jaden McDaniels.........$2,161,440
2022 First.................$3,000,000
________________________________
............................$51,997,225

$51,997,225 * 1.25 = $64,996,531
$64,996,531 + $100,000 = $65,096,531


_____________________________________________

Even bigger would be including Gay

Utah
In: Russell, Beasley, McDaniels, #19 (with contract*), future picks as needed
Out: Mitchell, Conley, Rudy Gay

Minnesota
In: Mitchell, Conley, Rudy Gay
Out: Russell, Beasley, McDaniels, #19 (with contract*), future picks as needed


Donovan Mitchell.........$30,351,780
Mike Conley................$22,680,000
Rudy Gay.....................$6,184,500
___________________________________
...............................$59,216,280


D'Angelo Russell............$31,377,750
Malik Beasley................$15,458,035
Jaden McDaniels.............$2,161,440
2022 First.....................$3,000,000
___________________________________
................................$51,997,225

$51,997,225 * 1.25 = $64,996,531
$64,996,531 + $100,000 = $65,096,531


_____________________________________________

Then even bigger with Clarkson going out instead of Gay


Utah
In: Russell, Beasley, McDaniels, Bolmaro #19 (with contract*), future picks as needed
Out: Mitchell, Conley, Clarkson

Minnesota
In: Mitchell, Conley, Clarkson
Out: Russell, Beasley, McDaniels, Bolmaro, #19 (with contract*), future picks as needed


Donovan Mitchell..........$30,351,780
Mike Conley.................$22,680,000
Jordan Clarkson............$13,340,000
____________________________________
...............................$66,371,780


D'Angelo Russell...........$31,377,750
Malik Beasley...............$15,458,035
Leandro Bolmaro............$2,471,160
Jaden McDaniels.............$2,161,440
2022 First.....................$3,000,000
____________________________________
................................$54,468,385

$54,468,385 * 1.25 = $68,085,481
$68,085,481 + $100,000 = $68,185,481


*************************************************************************

I have a Mitchell trade to Minnesota as unlikely because adding him doesn't really address their biggest need which is some more muscle to play with Towns.

Based on recent activity in Trades & Transactions, some/many/all Utah fans are opposed to a four or five quarters trade of Mitchell.


*************************************************************************

* For those that don't understand (or wiseguys), that means the 2022 draft pick is signed to a contract by Minnesota and then the trade is executed 30 days later.

[eminence]

Presumably some of the above posts were referencing McDaniels and how he hasn't shown significant enough defensive impact to be considered a highish tier defensive prospect - which to me is a weird one.

He's shown at least some evidence of having solid impact on defense (leads the Wolves rotation in things like EPM and LEBRON on the defensive side of the ball, 3rd in raw defensive RAPM behind Beverly/Vanderbilt). Green has shown similar (arguably slightly lesser) impact on the Mavs in more limited minutes.

Offense, not so hot, quite limited, I'll agree there.

[HartfordWhalers]

I'm boring and like Mitchel staying in Utah.

But if Utah did a deal; how many picks can they get from New Orleans and what is the matching?

[eminence]

I'm boring and like Mitchel staying in Utah.

But if Utah did a deal; how many picks can they get from New Orleans and what is the matching?

I feel like the matching almost has to be Graham/Nance/filler and youth.

One of Conley/Graham then probably has to be moved either in a bigger version of the deal or another deal.

[HartfordWhalers]

Presumably some of the above posts were referencing McDaniels and how he hasn't shown significant enough defensive impact to be considered a highish tier defensive prospect - which to me is a weird one.

He's shown at least some evidence of having solid impact on defense (leads the Wolves rotation in things like EPM and LEBRON on the defensive side of the ball, 3rd in raw defensive RAPM behind Beverly/Vanderbilt). Green has shown similar (arguably slightly lesser) impact on the Mavs in more limited minutes.

Offense, not so hot, quite limited, I'll agree there.

I'm referencing every young player and every take on them being stellar on defense(soon).

As for McDaniels, I am trying to stay away because apparently we have already filled our bingo card of mods against him*. I think he might be overhyped, but might also be oversold as a result. For me, the interesting question for him in general is does he project best as a 3 or a 4.



*

Spoiler:

For those wondering, I used every one of my mod bingo draft picks on against the Kings for the Halliburton win now trade and will never regret my choice there.

[HartfordWhalers]

Oh yeah, I am also wrapped up the anti Dlo position, so I full on my (biased against) Minnesota position.

But when the random trade Towns chorus starts, I will grab my pro Towns stance and own that island as much as I can.

[eminence]

Presumably some of the above posts were referencing McDaniels and how he hasn't shown significant enough defensive impact to be considered a highish tier defensive prospect - which to me is a weird one.

He's shown at least some evidence of having solid impact on defense (leads the Wolves rotation in things like EPM and LEBRON on the defensive side of the ball, 3rd in raw defensive RAPM behind Beverly/Vanderbilt). Green has shown similar (arguably slightly lesser) impact on the Mavs in more limited minutes.

Offense, not so hot, quite limited, I'll agree there.

I'm referencing every young player and every take on them being stellar on defense(soon).

As for McDaniels, I am trying to stay away because apparently we have already filled our bingo card of mods against him*. I think he might be overhyped, but might also be oversold as a result. For me, the interesting question for him in general is does he project best as a 3 or a 4.



*

Spoiler:

For those wondering, I used every one of my mod bingo draft picks on against the Kings for the Halliburton win now trade and will never regret my choice there.

I have more and more trouble differentiating between most 3s and 4s these days, so I'm not sure on the question. I know he'd be an upgrade defensively to anything Utah has there currently.

[HartfordWhalers]

Presumably some of the above posts were referencing McDaniels and how he hasn't shown significant enough defensive impact to be considered a highish tier defensive prospect - which to me is a weird one.

He's shown at least some evidence of having solid impact on defense (leads the Wolves rotation in things like EPM and LEBRON on the defensive side of the ball, 3rd in raw defensive RAPM behind Beverly/Vanderbilt). Green has shown similar (arguably slightly lesser) impact on the Mavs in more limited minutes.

Offense, not so hot, quite limited, I'll agree there.

I'm referencing every young player and every take on them being stellar on defense(soon).

As for McDaniels, I am trying to stay away because apparently we have already filled our bingo card of mods against him*. I think he might be overhyped, but might also be oversold as a result. For me, the interesting question for him in general is does he project best as a 3 or a 4.



*

Spoiler:

For those wondering, I used every one of my mod bingo draft picks on against the Kings for the Halliburton win now trade and will never regret my choice there.

I have more and more trouble differentiating between most 3s and 4s these days, so I'm not sure on the question. I know he'd be an upgrade defensively to anything Utah has there currently.

Speaking as a team that just faced Toronto:

3's (somewhat) guard OG or GTJ; absolutely manhandled by Siakam, and getting you 5 rebounds a game. If your second best rebounder its really not good on the glass (-4 a game?)
4's (somewhat) guard OG and Siakam, not speedy enough/wasted on GTJ, and getting you 8+ rebounds a game and can be your second best rebounder while you out rebound the other team by 1-2.

Sure, it is a spectrum. Maybe Tobias Harris is a 3.75, but he is closer to a 4 than a 3, but still small for it for instance.
Is McDaniels a 3.5? And if so, which way does he help/hurt you more; which way does he develop more -- perimeter defensive footspeed or rebounding?

[eminence]

Guess I'd go 3.75 as a perimeter oriented 4 in the future.

[kalenclayton]

This is not a promising list of finalists for the Kings…

Yeah, not impressed at all. Brown should at least get the team playing better defense, but is he really a head coach? I'd be VERY wary of Jackson, and Clifford is about as vanilla as the options get.

Brown and Clifford are my choices over Jackson by far. I’m not happy about that though. I’d much rather have a new voice that could end up great instead of a retread that tops out as an 8 seed coach.

If we are being real, D’Antoni probably backed out instead of getting passed up. Ham and Lee probably felt they had a great shot at the Lakers job, while also feeling very lukewarm on the Kings job. They probably backed out. Hardy would have been nice, but he can probably wait out another season for a better opportunity (just like Ham and Lee if they don’t get the Lakers job). The Kings were probably left with Jackson, Clifford, and Brown, and the media spin is being nice to to them.

[HornetJail]

any coaching search where Steve Clifford is the best candidate needs to be scrapped and started over

[Godaddycurse]

There is so much discussion about defense and prospects on here, and pretty much all in my not so humble opinion is just malarky. And hopes and dreams.

For 6? years Wiggins was called a good defender because he had the [physical] tools.
It takes bigs years to adjust.
It takes smalls years to adjust.
He has the tools.
It doesn't show up in the box score or plus minus, but waTcH this one Utuber clipppppppppsssssssss!!!!

My experience watching prospects is they tend to either start off good,or they never get great.

Thinking of the Sixers, Covington, Noel, Embiid, Thybulle all were monsters on that end immediately. So, 2 centers, a sf/pf and a sg/sf (just because he cannot shoot).

Oh I have seen players get better. It is common to get somewhat better (Wiggins was a fun starting example because he didn't seem to at least at Minnesota).

A ton of the NBA has defensive tools. Jonathan Isaac was injured, but great at defense from the get go. MArcus Smart has been great since the get go.

When was the last time a player was just not at all it and became elite as a defender?

Instead of hyping young guys are 3 and D, I feel like we need some term for "2 and solid". Because that should also be a thing. In fact, more often.

I agree and top defenders usually show out on impact stats pretty early. Within first 3 seasons.

Occasionally an top level player that has high IQ will develop elite defense a little later.

Gasol comes to mind

[zimpy27]

There is so much discussion about defense and prospects on here, and pretty much all in my not so humble opinion is just malarky. And hopes and dreams.

For 6? years Wiggins was called a good defender because he had the [physical] tools.
It takes bigs years to adjust.
It takes smalls years to adjust.
He has the tools.
It doesn't show up in the box score or plus minus, but waTcH this one Utuber clipppppppppsssssssss!!!!

My experience watching prospects is they tend to either start off good,or they never get great.

Thinking of the Sixers, Covington, Noel, Embiid, Thybulle all were monsters on that end immediately. So, 2 centers, a sf/pf and a sg/sf (just because he cannot shoot).

Oh I have seen players get better. It is common to get somewhat better (Wiggins was a fun starting example because he didn't seem to at least at Minnesota).

A ton of the NBA has defensive tools. Jonathan Isaac was injured, but great at defense from the get go. MArcus Smart has been great since the get go.

When was the last time a player was just not at all it and became elite as a defender?

Instead of hyping young guys are 3 and D, I feel like we need some term for "2 and solid". Because that should also be a thing. In fact, more often.

I agree and top defenders usually show out on impact stats pretty early. Within first 3 seasons.

Occasionally an top level player that has high IQ will develop elite defense a little later.

Gasol comes to mind

Yep, Bogut was similar.
Jokic and Doncic showing signs of that direction now. Even DLo had a bump this season.

Playmaking IQ seems to be transferrable to team defense quarterbacking.

[HartfordWhalers]

I agree and top defenders usually show out on impact stats pretty early. Within first 3 seasons.

Occasionally an top level player that has high IQ will develop elite defense a little later.

Gasol comes to mind

Yep, Bogut was similar.
Jokic and Doncic showing signs of that direction now. Even DLo had a bump this season.

Playmaking IQ seems to be transferrable to team defense quarterbacking.

Maybe my memory is rusty, but wasn't Bogut literally picked first in the draft because of his defense?
I see him as a big plus minus on off positive defensively instantly, with obviously more team success with GS.

Similarly, I think the idea of Dlo being great at defense is absurd. A bump to respectable maybe, but that is exactly what we aren;t talking about.

Now Gasol, is interesting. I assume we are talking Marc? If so, I think he definitely showed really good defense early. It just was fully unexpected that he would show it early, but the early Memphis years definitely had it.