Jalen Brunson obsession

[KnicksGadfly]

The problem with out evaluations is that we think you either hit a grand slam or you don't swing at pitches. You can gradually increase talent and have better pieces to trade for better pieces.

Sometimes you have to go through mediocre to get to spectacular. To the OP Brunson does not get us to the promised land. Nobody does by themselves. Bit if he fills our point guard problem that is another hole patched for a while as we build towards the promised land.

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It can work, though, as long as you don't eff up the rest of your cap and draft well. Also, it's better to get guys like Brunson who have proven to be able to play with stars (which is why I'll never advocate a DDR signing) so that when it's time to make that leap, you know you have a keeper.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

It's an interesting angle. Thanks for sharing this.

I highly doubt the Mavs would see any of these players as actual value - rather salary fillers. The Knicks would need to send the Dallas pick, and one of their young players, in addition to salary filler in my opinion. Especially if a S&T further puts them over the luxury tax, as you mentioned. They will have to send actual value back, almost like a regular trade. Unless the Mavs actually value Randle.

Yeah. Randle is the mystery question. I kinda doubt Dallas value him, but arguably he can be the #2/#3 guy and be more efficient if he plays with Luka. So let's think about their playoff rotation this year: Luka, Brunson, DFS, Powell and Reggie Bullock. With Dinwiddie and Maxi Kleber playing ~30m each. Bertans is playing nothing. Josh Green plays a few minutes - but going forward they'd probably plan for him to play a bit more. Take out Brunson and sub Randle straight in. Does that make sense? I guess that's a possibility. I wouldn't love it, but it's not ridiculously stupid. Possibly Powell and Randle get in each other's way too much in the paint. But maybe just try to minimize those minutes?
[edit] I forgot (to say): they presumably get THJ back from injury next year and he would take up some guard minutes, so just in a straight Randle for Brunson swap and assuming no other moves maybe Dallas has a 8 or 8.5 man playoff rotation next year. (Again, not realistic, but just moving everything forward without changes/improvements/fallings-oo/trades etc.)

Other than that, Dallas is already $4.5m over the tax threshold assuming they pick up the player option on Kleber ($9.25m) - which I assume they will do, because how else are they going to engineer 20+m of time/playoff game? (They can turn down their $2m option on Frank, and they may do so, but it hardly saves salary - I guess they could save ~$1m with a non-first round rookie.)

Your idea of a straight trade between Dallas and the Knicks in which the Knicks would get Brunson ($30.25m) and Bertans and the Knicks would give up the Dallas FRP, a young player and filler works. It has to include Rose and would work with, eg, Rose, one of Obi and Cam and both Kemba and Noel (the math doesn't quite work with Burks instead of either of the latter two). Tbh, I don't think that is a great deal for Dallas as it is: they go a further $22m into the tax for Obi, the pick and the filler salary. However, if they can flip that filler salary as part of a deal for Gobert then things don't look so bad. So maybe that's an option.

The other speculative thought I just had (and which is a legal trade) was a trade in which the Knicks get Brunson, Dallas gets Fournier and the Dall2023FRP and Cam gets shipped off to OKC (for the sake of argument) with some amount of 2RP going to OKC to incentivize the deal and the sacremental swapping of draft rights to never-coming to the league players to consumate the deal (ensuring 'touching' all around). That seems like a reasonable deal for Dallas (if they believe in Fournier as a player). And then they try to palm Bertans off together with the Dall2023FRP in a trade for Gobert.

I'd assume this gets super complicated with all teams being over the cap, but any way Randle goes to Utah, Gogurt to the Mavs and a S&T Brunson to the Knicks, where the Knicks still have to put in some filler, and we assume Dallas gets to dump Bertrans on the Knicks?

Though even as I typed it out, Dallas looses a scoring wing/guard type and gets in an expensive C...probably not.
Knicks put D Rose in the trade so Dallas gets a PG back, of a kind, since hard to know how many games he'll play

Sorry, I'm just about to go out. So let me answer off the cuff and I'll check my working properly when I get back!!!

If Dallas ships out Brunson on a 25%-max and Bertans they can take back Gobert. So the deal would be legal from their pov.

The Knicks are taking in $46.25m and so have to ship out at least $36.92. Randle is $23.76, so they need to ship out at least another $13.16m. So if they shipped Rose to Utah along with Randle that would make everything work moneywise for all three teams (and the Dall2023FRP back to Dallas, etc, or 2RP sweeteners, doesn't make any difference there).

Now if you want to structure it so that Dallas gets more player value then everyone has to trade more - roughly the same amount, but things get a little more flexible when you do that. (So those differences over the $1m salary between Burks and Noel start to fade away, for example.) So you could imagine that The Knicks ship Cam and Kemba to Utah along with Randle instead of Rose. Now they try to also ship Rose to Dallas, who would ship out, idk, Powell and Chriss to Utah, who would have to figure out some salary to send to NYK - maybe Juancho and Rudy Gay. I'm not 100% guaranteeing that 'second' tranche of deal works correctly as I didn't check those numbers precisely. But it should be pretty close and gives you some idea of the possibililties.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

Maybe the Knicks can send big Mitch to Utah as a Gobert replacement at almost 1/3 the cost, Gobert to Mavs, Brunson to Knicks. With other parts that make the trade work, which I'd have as some combination of D Rose, since he's the only truly useful vet and a PG, which might appeal to the Mavs and Fournier, since he's the right color for Utah, but also Cuban loves the euros. Add other various Knick vet scrubs minus Noel if Mitch goes (assume Knicks keep him as depth), Kemba for salary, and maybe one of Grimes or Cam to make the Mavs or Utah give half a sh*t about a trade. And that Mavs pick goes back, obviously.

Haha. I'm really not going to start in on the double S&Ts before I pop out. Let's just say they are probably going to be considerably more complicated just between the Knicks, Mavs and Jazz as they are all over the cap. Let me get back to this one later.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

Maybe the Knicks can send big Mitch to Utah as a Gobert replacement at almost 1/3 the cost, Gobert to Mavs, Brunson to Knicks. With other parts that make the trade work, which I'd have as some combination of D Rose, since he's the only truly useful vet and a PG, which might appeal to the Mavs and Fournier, since he's the right color for Utah, but also Cuban loves the euros. Add other various Knick vet scrubs minus Noel if Mitch goes (assume Knicks keep him as depth), Kemba for salary, and maybe one of Grimes or Cam to make the Mavs or Utah give half a sh*t about a trade. And that Mavs pick goes back, obviously.

For when I get back. What's our number for Mitch for a S&T value? Contract starts at $15m/year?

[Adelheid]

Brunny will have many suitors this offseason because of the 1st round performance. It will not be 20m I could almost guarantee it. Not surprised if it balloons to like 27m per. Dolan is actually a cheapskate, he will not be willing to go to a bidding war for a non-star.

Tyus Jones or rookie pg or nada

[RHODEY]

The Knicks are in a sort of Catch-22 here in a straight up Knicks-Mavs deal. The more they (over)pay Brunson to encourage him, the more salary that Dallas would have to take back in the S&T - and the further over the luxury tax that would put them. I mean, its one thing for the Mavs to be $25m over the tax threshold on resigning Brunson, but quite another to be $25m over the threshold for the honour of having Nerlens Noel, Kemba Walker and Alec Burks on the roster.

It's an interesting angle. Thanks for sharing this.

I highly doubt the Mavs would see any of these players as actual value - rather salary fillers. The Knicks would need to send the Dallas pick, and one of their young players, in addition to salary filler in my opinion. Especially if a S&T further puts them over the luxury tax, as you mentioned. They will have to send actual value back, almost like a regular trade. Unless the Mavs actually value Randle.

Yeah. Randle is the mystery question. I kinda doubt Dallas value him, but arguably he can be the #2/#3 guy and be more efficient if he plays with Luka. So let's think about their playoff rotation this year: Luka, Brunson, DFS, Powell and Reggie Bullock. With Dinwiddie and Maxi Kleber playing ~30m each. Bertans is playing nothing. Josh Green plays a few minutes - but going forward they'd probably plan for him to play a bit more. Take out Brunson and sub Randle straight in. Does that make sense? I guess that's a possibility. I wouldn't love it, but it's not ridiculously stupid. Possibly Powell and Randle get in each other's way too much in the paint. But maybe just try to minimize those minutes?
[edit] I forgot (to say): they presumably get THJ back from injury next year and he would take up some guard minutes, so just in a straight Randle for Brunson swap and assuming no other moves maybe Dallas has a 8 or 8.5 man playoff rotation next year. (Again, not realistic, but just moving everything forward without changes/improvements/fallings-oo/trades etc.)

Other than that, Dallas is already $4.5m over the tax threshold assuming they pick up the player option on Kleber ($9.25m) - which I assume they will do, because how else are they going to engineer 20+m of time/playoff game? (They can turn down their $2m option on Frank, and they may do so, but it hardly saves salary - I guess they could save ~$1m with a non-first round rookie.)

Your idea of a straight trade between Dallas and the Knicks in which the Knicks would get Brunson ($30.25m) and Bertans and the Knicks would give up the Dallas FRP, a young player and filler works. It has to include Rose and would work with, eg, Rose, one of Obi and Cam and both Kemba and Noel (the math doesn't quite work with Burks instead of either of the latter two). Tbh, I don't think that is a great deal for Dallas as it is: they go a further $22m into the tax for Obi, the pick and the filler salary. However, if they can flip that filler salary as part of a deal for Gobert then things don't look so bad. So maybe that's an option.

The other speculative thought I just had (and which is a legal trade) was a trade in which the Knicks get Brunson, Dallas gets Fournier and the Dall2023FRP and Cam gets shipped off to OKC (for the sake of argument) with some amount of 2RP going to OKC to incentivize the deal and the sacremental swapping of draft rights to never-coming to the league players to consumate the deal (ensuring 'touching' all around). That seems like a reasonable deal for Dallas (if they believe in Fournier as a player). And then they try to palm Bertans off together with the Dall2023FRP in a trade for Gobert.

Bertans and a weak 1st rounder for Gobert? That doesn't make the Jazz any better at all ...I like it though ...it would drive Mitchell out of there that much quicker

[8516knicks]

Brunny will have many suitors this offseason because of the 1st round performance. It will not be 20m I could almost guarantee it. Not surprised if it balloons to like 27m per. Dolan is actually a cheapskate, he will not be willing to go to a bidding war for a non-star.

Tyus Jones or rookie pg or nada

I contrast the Knicks with how Miami has managed to accumulate at contending team with only Butler (perhaps) as a "superstar." Robinson, Herro, Abebayo, Lowry, Oladipo, Morris, etc. Or the Raptors with Barnes, Anonuby, FVF, Siakam, etc. You don't see those teams stacking up on washed up vets.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

Brunny will have many suitors this offseason because of the 1st round performance. It will not be 20m I could almost guarantee it. Not surprised if it balloons to like 27m per. Dolan is actually a cheapskate, he will not be willing to go to a bidding war for a non-star.

Tyus Jones or rookie pg or nada

I agree with the first couple of sentences. Not sure I agree that Dolan is a cheapskate - that's one thing I don't think he has been.

Ty Jones has also quietly had a good season and a decent playoffs so far. He's not an MLE signing now, by any means, imo.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

It's an interesting angle. Thanks for sharing this.

I highly doubt the Mavs would see any of these players as actual value - rather salary fillers. The Knicks would need to send the Dallas pick, and one of their young players, in addition to salary filler in my opinion. Especially if a S&T further puts them over the luxury tax, as you mentioned. They will have to send actual value back, almost like a regular trade. Unless the Mavs actually value Randle.

Yeah. Randle is the mystery question. I kinda doubt Dallas value him, but arguably he can be the #2/#3 guy and be more efficient if he plays with Luka. So let's think about their playoff rotation this year: Luka, Brunson, DFS, Powell and Reggie Bullock. With Dinwiddie and Maxi Kleber playing ~30m each. Bertans is playing nothing. Josh Green plays a few minutes - but going forward they'd probably plan for him to play a bit more. Take out Brunson and sub Randle straight in. Does that make sense? I guess that's a possibility. I wouldn't love it, but it's not ridiculously stupid. Possibly Powell and Randle get in each other's way too much in the paint. But maybe just try to minimize those minutes?
[edit] I forgot (to say): they presumably get THJ back from injury next year and he would take up some guard minutes, so just in a straight Randle for Brunson swap and assuming no other moves maybe Dallas has a 8 or 8.5 man playoff rotation next year. (Again, not realistic, but just moving everything forward without changes/improvements/fallings-oo/trades etc.)

Other than that, Dallas is already $4.5m over the tax threshold assuming they pick up the player option on Kleber ($9.25m) - which I assume they will do, because how else are they going to engineer 20+m of time/playoff game? (They can turn down their $2m option on Frank, and they may do so, but it hardly saves salary - I guess they could save ~$1m with a non-first round rookie.)

Your idea of a straight trade between Dallas and the Knicks in which the Knicks would get Brunson ($30.25m) and Bertans and the Knicks would give up the Dallas FRP, a young player and filler works. It has to include Rose and would work with, eg, Rose, one of Obi and Cam and both Kemba and Noel (the math doesn't quite work with Burks instead of either of the latter two). Tbh, I don't think that is a great deal for Dallas as it is: they go a further $22m into the tax for Obi, the pick and the filler salary. However, if they can flip that filler salary as part of a deal for Gobert then things don't look so bad. So maybe that's an option.

The other speculative thought I just had (and which is a legal trade) was a trade in which the Knicks get Brunson, Dallas gets Fournier and the Dall2023FRP and Cam gets shipped off to OKC (for the sake of argument) with some amount of 2RP going to OKC to incentivize the deal and the sacremental swapping of draft rights to never-coming to the league players to consumate the deal (ensuring 'touching' all around). That seems like a reasonable deal for Dallas (if they believe in Fournier as a player). And then they try to palm Bertans off together with the Dall2023FRP in a trade for Gobert.

Bertans and a weak 1st rounder for Gobert? That doesn't make the Jazz any better at all ...I like it though ...it would drive Mitchell out of there that much quicker

Maybe I wasn't that clear. In the post you quote I was thinking of a separate Jazz-Mavs deal, so the Mavs would give up maybe Powell, Green, that filler salary from the Knicks (or maybe Bertans or Dinwiddie if there is no S&T involving Brunson) and a couple of FRP.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

Maybe the Knicks can send big Mitch to Utah as a Gobert replacement at almost 1/3 the cost, Gobert to Mavs, Brunson to Knicks. With other parts that make the trade work, which I'd have as some combination of D Rose, since he's the only truly useful vet and a PG, which might appeal to the Mavs and Fournier, since he's the right color for Utah, but also Cuban loves the euros. Add other various Knick vet scrubs minus Noel if Mitch goes (assume Knicks keep him as depth), Kemba for salary, and maybe one of Grimes or Cam to make the Mavs or Utah give half a sh*t about a trade. And that Mavs pick goes back, obviously.

Haha. I'm really not going to start in on the double S&Ts before I pop out. Let's just say they are probably going to be considerably more complicated just between the Knicks, Mavs and Jazz as they are all over the cap. Let me get back to this one later.

Once you have Gobert's level of already-signed salary kicking around this is quite a lot easier that just a striaght Brunson for Mitch type deal. So Gobert to the Mavs (and the Mavs23FRP from NYK), Brunson and Bertans to the Knicks and Mitch, Rose* and Fournier to Utah works. I'm not sure I love that from the Mavs's pov - trying to slot in Mitch** rather than Gobert would seem a better option to me .. but ok, the team are rumoured to be chasing him and the better Mavs forums are discussing it (worriedly, perhaps, after the Jazz-Mavs series).

* Can substitute Cam and Kemba salary wise for Rose, if preferred.

** Knicks send Mitch, Dal23FRP + 40m in salary, Mavs send Brunson + 29m in salary. Usually those would be pretty large amounts of side salary. However in this instance both teams have salary they would love to use as trade filler coming out of their ears.

[Adelheid]

Brunny will have many suitors this offseason because of the 1st round performance. It will not be 20m I could almost guarantee it. Not surprised if it balloons to like 27m per. Dolan is actually a cheapskate, he will not be willing to go to a bidding war for a non-star.

Tyus Jones or rookie pg or nada

I agree with the first couple of sentences. Not sure I agree that Dolan is a cheapskate - that's one thing I don't think he has been.

Ty Jones has also quietly had a good season and a decent playoffs so far. He's not an MLE signing now, by any means, imo.

What would you think Ty's value would be in the offseason?

[RHODEY]

Yeah. Randle is the mystery question. I kinda doubt Dallas value him, but arguably he can be the #2/#3 guy and be more efficient if he plays with Luka. So let's think about their playoff rotation this year: Luka, Brunson, DFS, Powell and Reggie Bullock. With Dinwiddie and Maxi Kleber playing ~30m each. Bertans is playing nothing. Josh Green plays a few minutes - but going forward they'd probably plan for him to play a bit more. Take out Brunson and sub Randle straight in. Does that make sense? I guess that's a possibility. I wouldn't love it, but it's not ridiculously stupid. Possibly Powell and Randle get in each other's way too much in the paint. But maybe just try to minimize those minutes?
[edit] I forgot (to say): they presumably get THJ back from injury next year and he would take up some guard minutes, so just in a straight Randle for Brunson swap and assuming no other moves maybe Dallas has a 8 or 8.5 man playoff rotation next year. (Again, not realistic, but just moving everything forward without changes/improvements/fallings-oo/trades etc.)

Other than that, Dallas is already $4.5m over the tax threshold assuming they pick up the player option on Kleber ($9.25m) - which I assume they will do, because how else are they going to engineer 20+m of time/playoff game? (They can turn down their $2m option on Frank, and they may do so, but it hardly saves salary - I guess they could save ~$1m with a non-first round rookie.)

Your idea of a straight trade between Dallas and the Knicks in which the Knicks would get Brunson ($30.25m) and Bertans and the Knicks would give up the Dallas FRP, a young player and filler works. It has to include Rose and would work with, eg, Rose, one of Obi and Cam and both Kemba and Noel (the math doesn't quite work with Burks instead of either of the latter two). Tbh, I don't think that is a great deal for Dallas as it is: they go a further $22m into the tax for Obi, the pick and the filler salary. However, if they can flip that filler salary as part of a deal for Gobert then things don't look so bad. So maybe that's an option.

The other speculative thought I just had (and which is a legal trade) was a trade in which the Knicks get Brunson, Dallas gets Fournier and the Dall2023FRP and Cam gets shipped off to OKC (for the sake of argument) with some amount of 2RP going to OKC to incentivize the deal and the sacremental swapping of draft rights to never-coming to the league players to consumate the deal (ensuring 'touching' all around). That seems like a reasonable deal for Dallas (if they believe in Fournier as a player). And then they try to palm Bertans off together with the Dall2023FRP in a trade for Gobert.

Bertans and a weak 1st rounder for Gobert? That doesn't make the Jazz any better at all ...I like it though ...it would drive Mitchell out of there that much quicker

Maybe I wasn't that clear. In the post you quote I was thinking of a separate Jazz-Mavs deal, so the Mavs would give up maybe Powell, Green, that filler salary from the Knicks (or maybe Bertans or Dinwiddie if there is no S&T involving Brunson) and a couple of FRP.

Better but the Jazz's defense would still be in shambles...I agree they wont get equal value for Gobert - due to that contract - but I would think they could do better. Its going to be an interesting off-season for sure.

[RHODEY]

Maybe the Knicks can send big Mitch to Utah as a Gobert replacement at almost 1/3 the cost, Gobert to Mavs, Brunson to Knicks. With other parts that make the trade work, which I'd have as some combination of D Rose, since he's the only truly useful vet and a PG, which might appeal to the Mavs and Fournier, since he's the right color for Utah, but also Cuban loves the euros. Add other various Knick vet scrubs minus Noel if Mitch goes (assume Knicks keep him as depth), Kemba for salary, and maybe one of Grimes or Cam to make the Mavs or Utah give half a sh*t about a trade. And that Mavs pick goes back, obviously.

Haha. I'm really not going to start in on the double S&Ts before I pop out. Let's just say they are probably going to be considerably more complicated just between the Knicks, Mavs and Jazz as they are all over the cap. Let me get back to this one later.

Once you have Gobert's level of already-signed salary kicking around this is quite a lot easier that just a striaght Brunson for Mitch type deal. So Gobert to the Mavs (and the Mavs23FRP from NYK), Brunson and Bertans to the Knicks and Mitch, Rose* and Fournier to Utah works. I'm not sure I love that from the Mavs's pov - trying to slot in Mitch rather than Gobert would seem a better option to me .. but ok, the team are rumoured to be chasing him and the better Mavs forums are discussing it (worriedly, perhaps, after the Jazz-Mavs series).

* Can substitute Cam and Kemba salary wise for Rose, if preferred.

Not sure I love it from a Knicks perspective...and I really like Brunson, but we lose Mitch, Rose and a first rounder AND we have to take a bad really contract?

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

Brunny will have many suitors this offseason because of the 1st round performance. It will not be 20m I could almost guarantee it. Not surprised if it balloons to like 27m per. Dolan is actually a cheapskate, he will not be willing to go to a bidding war for a non-star.

Tyus Jones or rookie pg or nada

I agree with the first couple of sentences. Not sure I agree that Dolan is a cheapskate - that's one thing I don't think he has been.

Ty Jones has also quietly had a good season and a decent playoffs so far. He's not an MLE signing now, by any means, imo.

What would you think Ty's value would be in the offseason?

I had an interesting discussion about this a week, maybe 10 days, ago with some Wizards fans. One question is what is the market like for Ty and Jalen. I was pretty upbeat about both of their regular seasons. However, I think we can all agree that probably even since I had that conversation the market for both is firming pretty strongly. So, whereas two weeks ago it was arguable that only the Knicks and the Wizards wanted either (setting aside their current teams), and so they would be forced to accept relatively low offers (eg 80/4 for Brunson starting at ~18m in the first year, and the MLE with increments each year for Jones, idk the MLE is about 11m so, maybe that comes to ~50/4 for Jones), I didn't really believe in that argument then and I certainly don't now. I think the floor for Ty is currently 60-/4 or even starting at 15 and with increments ~65/4 .. and I could easily see that going to starting close to 18. Brunson probably anywhere from 25 first year to the max (30.25). I don't expect the Mavs to win against the Suns but if they and Brunson have a good series I think the max is very possible.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

Bertans and a weak 1st rounder for Gobert? That doesn't make the Jazz any better at all ...I like it though ...it would drive Mitchell out of there that much quicker

Maybe I wasn't that clear. In the post you quote I was thinking of a separate Jazz-Mavs deal, so the Mavs would give up maybe Powell, Green, that filler salary from the Knicks (or maybe Bertans or Dinwiddie if there is no S&T involving Brunson) and a couple of FRP.

Better but the Jazz's defense would still be in shambles...I agree they wont get equal value for Gobert - due to that contract - but I would think they could do better. Its going to be an interesting off-season for sure.

Yes. I think the Mavs boards (not on realgm - love Dirk the poster, but the rest of that board is the pits) almost unanimously believe they don't have enough to offer Utah - that's one of the reasons getting the 2023 FRP back from the Knicks is so important to the Mavs. On the other hand, Powell is a reasonable defender and would be more effective in the P'n'R with Mitchell than Gobert has been, and Green is an excellent on ball defender (and not bad in terms team D). So the Jazz would end up with something in that kind of deal - Dinwiddie isn't going to help their D, but would be useful outside shooting, and they could try to trade the picks for some kind of front court defence. Maybe they could s'n't Mitch and the Dallas 2023 would end up back with NYK!

[thebuzzardman]

Haha. I'm really not going to start in on the double S&Ts before I pop out. Let's just say they are probably going to be considerably more complicated just between the Knicks, Mavs and Jazz as they are all over the cap. Let me get back to this one later.

Once you have Gobert's level of already-signed salary kicking around this is quite a lot easier that just a striaght Brunson for Mitch type deal. So Gobert to the Mavs (and the Mavs23FRP from NYK), Brunson and Bertans to the Knicks and Mitch, Rose* and Fournier to Utah works. I'm not sure I love that from the Mavs's pov - trying to slot in Mitch rather than Gobert would seem a better option to me .. but ok, the team are rumoured to be chasing him and the better Mavs forums are discussing it (worriedly, perhaps, after the Jazz-Mavs series).

* Can substitute Cam and Kemba salary wise for Rose, if preferred.

Not sure I love it from a Knicks perspective...and I really like Brunson, but we lose Mitch, Rose and a first rounder AND we have to take a bad really contract?

I'd agree.

The only scenario where it makes "sense" for the Knicks is that they like the idea of building around RJ and Randle (Hi Chanel!) and want to add Brunson, and feel that IQ can play the additional PG minutes and see some time in the wing rotation with Grimes/Fournier/RJ - thereby making Rose "obsolete"

Would suck a bit to trade Cam as I like his potential still and is the only tall-ish SF type the Knicks currently have.
And that the Knicks are not enthusiastic about paying Mitch 15/16 million a year for 3 years, or value it less than Brunson, or Brunson plus pushing up at tax apron of the cap.
Then the Knicks use the 11th pick to address C depth again if there is a lack of comfort going with Randle/Obi too much or they feel the need to have another young C with Sims for when Noel goes away, hopefully sooner than later.
Or, the Knicks replace Cam with a rangy SF and live with Noel/Sims for a year, or even use the larger MLE on a vet C

But year, Rose, Mitch, Cam and a pick are a lot for Brunson AND carrying Bertrans sh*tty contract.

I see BXetc put in Kemba/Cam instead of Rose. That might work.

Dallas gets Gobert, pick back, Cam, Kemba (who they cut)
Jazz get Mitch and something
Knicks get Brunson and the crappy contract of Bertrans

Sorry, I kind of lost track of the trade scenarios, so not sure I put forth something completely impossible.

It's all just for fun anyway, Knicks aren't getting a single good player this offseason. Not in a trade, nor as a FA and not in the draft. Because Knicks.

[Adelheid]

I agree with the first couple of sentences. Not sure I agree that Dolan is a cheapskate - that's one thing I don't think he has been.

Ty Jones has also quietly had a good season and a decent playoffs so far. He's not an MLE signing now, by any means, imo.

What would you think Ty's value would be in the offseason?

I had an interesting discussion about this a week, maybe 10 days, ago with some Wizards fans. One question is what is the market like for Ty and Jalen. I was pretty upbeat about both of their regular seasons. However, I think we can all agree that probably even since I had that conversation the market for both is firming pretty strongly. So, whereas two weeks ago it was arguable that only the Knicks and the Wizards wanted either (setting aside their current teams), and so they would be forced to accept relatively low offers (eg 80/4 for Brunson starting at ~18m in the first year, and the MLE with increments each year for Jones, idk the MLE is about 11m so, maybe that comes to ~50/4 for Jones), I didn't really believe in that argument then and I certainly don't now. I think the floor for Ty is currently 60-/4 or even starting at 15 and with increments ~65/4 .. and I could easily see that going to starting close to 18. Brunson probably anywhere from 25 first year to the max (30.25). I don't expect the Mavs to win against the Suns but if they and Brunson have a good series I think the max is very possible.

I feel like the mavs doesnt need to beat the suns for Jalen to get max. Just give the suns a really vicious fight like 4-3 series

My other "concern" is -- what is the mavs going to do with Luka Jalen and Spencer all handling and wanting the ball? Someone has to go

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

Haha. I'm really not going to start in on the double S&Ts before I pop out. Let's just say they are probably going to be considerably more complicated just between the Knicks, Mavs and Jazz as they are all over the cap. Let me get back to this one later.

Once you have Gobert's level of already-signed salary kicking around this is quite a lot easier that just a striaght Brunson for Mitch type deal. So Gobert to the Mavs (and the Mavs23FRP from NYK), Brunson and Bertans to the Knicks and Mitch, Rose* and Fournier to Utah works. I'm not sure I love that from the Mavs's pov - trying to slot in Mitch rather than Gobert would seem a better option to me .. but ok, the team are rumoured to be chasing him and the better Mavs forums are discussing it (worriedly, perhaps, after the Jazz-Mavs series).

* Can substitute Cam and Kemba salary wise for Rose, if preferred.

Not sure I love it from a Knicks perspective...and I really like Brunson, but we lose Mitch, Rose and a first rounder AND we have to take a bad really contract?

I see that pov. I'm just kicking some ideas around - in this one just responding the thebuzzardman's asking was this kind of a deal (with Brunson to NYK, Gobert to Dallas and Mitch to the Mavs) possible under the CBA. One thing to note is that it's pretty unclear, at least to me, how much influence the Knicks will have over Mitch and whether they would be able to re-sign him and/or S&T him. If I was Mitch I would want out all things financial being even.

One difficulty is that the Jazz only have 11 players under contract come July 1st, so it's difficult to make small adjustments. For example, maybe the Knicks would like Dinwiddie (who had a good end to the regular season in Dallas) instead of Bertans. But Dinwiddie' unlikely bonuses have just become likely since Dallas made the second round of the playoffs, so his salary (for cap purposes) is )on 1st July) $20.5m - rather than the headline $18m figure). That means that Utah would have to send another ~$2.5m salary to Dallas (in order for the Knicks to get Dinwiddie rather than Bertans). But then they are scuffling around to try to find that - maybe they could send Jared Butler and Azuibuike - ~$3.6m or NAW - $5m - but then they losing players. But that is a possibility. Of course, one can play endlessly.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

What would you think Ty's value would be in the offseason?

I had an interesting discussion about this a week, maybe 10 days, ago with some Wizards fans. One question is what is the market like for Ty and Jalen. I was pretty upbeat about both of their regular seasons. However, I think we can all agree that probably even since I had that conversation the market for both is firming pretty strongly. So, whereas two weeks ago it was arguable that only the Knicks and the Wizards wanted either (setting aside their current teams), and so they would be forced to accept relatively low offers (eg 80/4 for Brunson starting at ~18m in the first year, and the MLE with increments each year for Jones, idk the MLE is about 11m so, maybe that comes to ~50/4 for Jones), I didn't really believe in that argument then and I certainly don't now. I think the floor for Ty is currently 60-/4 or even starting at 15 and with increments ~65/4 .. and I could easily see that going to starting close to 18. Brunson probably anywhere from 25 first year to the max (30.25). I don't expect the Mavs to win against the Suns but if they and Brunson have a good series I think the max is very possible.

I feel like the mavs doesnt need to beat the suns for Jalen to get max. Just give the suns a really vicious fight like 4-3 series

My other "concern" is -- what is the mavs going to do with Luka Jalen and Spencer all handling and wanting the ball? Someone has to go

Agree with both points here.

In an ideal Mavs world they would trade Dinwiddie and keep Brunson. Is there enough ball just between Luka and Jalen to satisfy Jalen? That's the $64,000 Q.

[8516knicks]

I had an interesting discussion about this a week, maybe 10 days, ago with some Wizards fans. One question is what is the market like for Ty and Jalen. I was pretty upbeat about both of their regular seasons. However, I think we can all agree that probably even since I had that conversation the market for both is firming pretty strongly. So, whereas two weeks ago it was arguable that only the Knicks and the Wizards wanted either (setting aside their current teams), and so they would be forced to accept relatively low offers (eg 80/4 for Brunson starting at ~18m in the first year, and the MLE with increments each year for Jones, idk the MLE is about 11m so, maybe that comes to ~50/4 for Jones), I didn't really believe in that argument then and I certainly don't now. I think the floor for Ty is currently 60-/4 or even starting at 15 and with increments ~65/4 .. and I could easily see that going to starting close to 18. Brunson probably anywhere from 25 first year to the max (30.25). I don't expect the Mavs to win against the Suns but if they and Brunson have a good series I think the max is very possible.

I feel like the mavs doesnt need to beat the suns for Jalen to get max. Just give the suns a really vicious fight like 4-3 series

My other "concern" is -- what is the mavs going to do with Luka Jalen and Spencer all handling and wanting the ball? Someone has to go

Agree with both points here.

In an ideal Mavs world they would trade Dinwiddie and keep Brunson. Is there enough ball just between Luka and Jalen to satisfy Jalen? That's the $64,000 Q.

MOre like the 25 M dollar question now.