Post-Mortem: 2021-22 Toronto Raptors

[Murray_17]

It just feels like people (cough cough a handful of Sixers fans) are jumping though hoops to lay the situation out in the most unflattering way they can think of.

When we talk about treadmill teams it's usually about a team that's been stuck in the same place for years and has a mediocre veteran core that isn't going to get any better.

In this case the people who are saying treadmill are trying to Nostradamus some scenario where Barnes turns into a scrub, other young Raps do not improve, the franchise makes no good moves over the next few years, and everything generally goes to hell. That's only one possible future outcome and doesn't really have anything to do with a treadmill.

Oh yeah, i think me being a sixers fan looks like i'm just poking the wound, the GB discourse on this series has been awful and some people act like this is highschool. The Embiid injury thread is the same but in reverse, that's totally true.

I just don't think they have that much potential to be better than what they're right now. They are stuck with their actual roster unless they trade Siakam/FVV or OG/Trent Jr and the Barnes timeline doesn't match with those guys very much.

You could build around Barnes by the time those guys expire and that's an interesting scenario but also kind of means a soft reset.

[jpengland]

I'm a huge Barnes fan.
They go as far he does.

[Parataxis]

The Raptors still look like a lock for a playoffs again next year, but probably still wont be good enough to get out of the 1st Round.

I think that if the Raptors re-up on both Gary and Fred on extensions next year, they're on a classic 'treadmill'. Running it back with the same core roster season after season. But is that we worst thing?

The term treadmill is generally overused though, and probably has more negative connotation than it deserves. You're either contending or you aren't, and only a handful of teams are truly contenders each season. Last time we had a 'treadmill core', we traded for Kawhi and won. There are many ways to get to where you want to go

Treadmill means you are stuck at a level. You are not talented enough to go above that level. And yet you still have enough talent that you would not fall below that level. Thats the no-man's land Shaq was referring to that Raptors are at and I agree. I would say these are the levels:
1. Championship Contender Level
2. Playoff 2nd Round Level
3. Playoff 1st Round Level
4. Make Playoffs via Playin Level
5. Non Playoff Level

Raptors are at Level 3. They should be able to make playoffs without playin needed. But they cannot get past 1st round with what they have. Hope is 1 more year of Scottie and Achiuwa will propel them to Level 2 assuming Fred and Siakam do not regress. To go to Level 1 they need couple of years of Scottie and Achiuwa together and need to make some trades.

Totally, but I think people tend use treadmill to describe being stuck at Level 3-4 (to use yours from above), where as I tend to agree with your framing of it. We're totally stuck at Level 3 unless Scottie takes a big leap.

I mean, nobody called the Curry/Durant Warriors or the 2nd LeBron Cavs 'treadmill' teams, even though they were consistently at the same level (#1 here).

Regardless, I don't think the Raps are stuck at level three at all. They can expect internal growth from the young players, they have room under the tax, and they have tradable assets to make a move.

[SelfishPlayer]

Treadmill means you are stuck at a level. You are not talented enough to go above that level. And yet you still have enough talent that you would not fall below that level. Thats the no-man's land Shaq was referring to that Raptors are at and I agree. I would say these are the levels:
1. Championship Contender Level
2. Playoff 2nd Round Level
3. Playoff 1st Round Level
4. Make Playoffs via Playin Level
5. Non Playoff Level

Raptors are at Level 3. They should be able to make playoffs without playin needed. But they cannot get past 1st round with what they have. Hope is 1 more year of Scottie and Achiuwa will propel them to Level 2 assuming Fred and Siakam do not regress. To go to Level 1 they need couple of years of Scottie and Achiuwa together and need to make some trades.

Totally, but I think people tend use treadmill to describe being stuck at Level 3-4 (to use yours from above), where as I tend to agree with your framing of it. We're totally stuck at Level 3 unless Scottie takes a big leap.

I mean, nobody called the Curry/Durant Warriors or the 2nd LeBron Cavs 'treadmill' teams, even though they were consistently at the same level (#1 here).

Regardless, I don't think the Raps are stuck at level three at all. They can expect internal growth from the young players, they have room under the tax, and they have tradable assets to make a move.

What room? The Raptors would make more sense if FVV, and Siakam were on the same timeline as Barnes much like the Warriors trio were on the same time line.

[LoveMyRaps]

I get that the "treadmill" thing is coming from people who just like annoying Raps fans, but I don't know how a team that has the Rookie of the Year is on a treadmill.

Barnes is amazing but he isn't gonna reach his peak level until 3 or 4 years in the future. By that time Siakam and FVV are going to be on the decline

Unless Achiuwa and Trent Jr become borderline All star guys they're capped on the potential for the roster.

It just feels like people (cough cough a handful of Sixers fans) are jumping though hoops to lay the situation out in the most unflattering way they can think of.

When we talk about treadmill teams it's usually about a team that's been stuck in the same place for years and has a mediocre veteran core that isn't going to get any better.

In this case the people who are saying treadmill are trying to Nostradamus some scenario where Barnes turns into a scrub, other young Raps do not improve, the franchise makes no good moves over the next few years, and everything generally goes to hell. That's only one possible future outcome and doesn't really have anything to do with a treadmill.

Bingo.

Notice in the following visual, the person is constantly in motion but remains in one spot. It doesn't matter how fast he moves and for how long he moves, he constantly remains in the same position.

Hence why the term treadmill is used to describe a team stuck in the same place for multiple seasons.

The Raptors just went from the 4th overall pick (in which they struck literal gold) to finishing 5th in a stacked eastern conference.
They had one of the best records in 2022, had one of the best records against teams above .500, & had the best record in the league against the top 3 teams of each conference. They were just struck with injuries at the worst time possible (3 of their starters missed multiple games in the first round series) or who knows how far they could've gone.

It's downright silly and ignorant to label the Raptors a treadmill team.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Barnes is amazing but he isn't gonna reach his peak level until 3 or 4 years in the future. By that time Siakam and FVV are going to be on the decline

Unless Achiuwa and Trent Jr become borderline All star guys they're capped on the potential for the roster.

It just feels like people (cough cough a handful of Sixers fans) are jumping though hoops to lay the situation out in the most unflattering way they can think of.

When we talk about treadmill teams it's usually about a team that's been stuck in the same place for years and has a mediocre veteran core that isn't going to get any better.

In this case the people who are saying treadmill are trying to Nostradamus some scenario where Barnes turns into a scrub, other young Raps do not improve, the franchise makes no good moves over the next few years, and everything generally goes to hell. That's only one possible future outcome and doesn't really have anything to do with a treadmill.

Bingo.

Notice in the following visual, the person is constantly in motion but remains in one spot. It doesn't matter how fast he moves and for how long he moves, he constantly remains in the same position.

Hence why the term treadmill is used to describe a team stuck in the same place for multiple seasons.

The Raptors just went from the 4th overall pick (in which they struck literal gold) to finishing 5th in a stacked eastern conference.
They had one of the best records in 2022, had one of the best records against teams above .500, & had the best record in the league against the top 3 teams of each conference. They were just struck with injuries at the worst time possible (3 of their starters missed multiple games in the first round series) or who knows how far they could've gone.

It's downright silly and ignorant to label the Raptors a treadmill team.

the lengths of some posters in this thread to label the Raptors as threadmill is kinda hilarious. they use the TNT crew's analysis as a confirmation bias because it backs up their feelings. which might be because of some Raptors posters here that do go homeristic - and i understand feelings do prevent clear analysis.

if it weren't for the some of the horrific Raptors homerism posts, esp those posting in the 76ers or any other truly dumb posts by some Raptors homers here on RealGm, ya i think these people could see the light. now they just wanna argue and troll because it annoys some of the posters - low hanging fruit people lol

[YogurtProducer]

The Raptors still look like a lock for a playoffs again next year, but probably still wont be good enough to get out of the 1st Round.

I think that if the Raptors re-up on both Gary and Fred on extensions next year, they're on a classic 'treadmill'. Running it back with the same core roster season after season. But is that we worst thing?

The term treadmill is generally overused though, and probably has more negative connotation than it deserves. You're either contending or you aren't, and only a handful of teams are truly contenders each season. Last time we had a 'treadmill core', we traded for Kawhi and won. There are many ways to get to where you want to go

Treadmill means you are stuck at a level. You are not talented enough to go above that level. And yet you still have enough talent that you would not fall below that level. Thats the no-man's land Shaq was referring to that Raptors are at and I agree. I would say these are the levels:
1. Championship Contender Level
2. Playoff 2nd Round Level
3. Make Playoff without needing Playin Level (would not get past 1st Round)
4. Make Playoff via Playin Level (would not get past 1st Round)
5. Try hard but could not make Playoff Level
6. Dont even think about Playoff Level

Raptors are at Level 3. They should be able to make playoffs without playin needed. But they cannot get past 1st round with what they have. Hope is 1 more year of Scottie and Achiuwa will propel them to Level 2 assuming Fred and Siakam do not regress. To go to Level 1 they need couple of years of Scottie and Achiuwa together and need to make some trades.

Raptors are at like 2.5 there. A healthy Raps team for the full year is a potential top 4 seed, and I would have loved to see that Philly series with both teams healthy.

[YogurtProducer]

It just feels like people (cough cough a handful of Sixers fans) are jumping though hoops to lay the situation out in the most unflattering way they can think of.

When we talk about treadmill teams it's usually about a team that's been stuck in the same place for years and has a mediocre veteran core that isn't going to get any better.

In this case the people who are saying treadmill are trying to Nostradamus some scenario where Barnes turns into a scrub, other young Raps do not improve, the franchise makes no good moves over the next few years, and everything generally goes to hell. That's only one possible future outcome and doesn't really have anything to do with a treadmill.

Oh yeah, i think me being a sixers fan looks like i'm just poking the wound, the GB discourse on this series has been awful and some people act like this is highschool. The Embiid injury thread is the same but in reverse, that's totally true.

I just don't think they have that much potential to be better than what they're right now. They are stuck with their actual roster unless they trade Siakam/FVV or OG/Trent Jr and the Barnes timeline doesn't match with those guys very much.

You could build around Barnes by the time those guys expire and that's an interesting scenario but also kind of means a soft reset.

How does Scottie (20) not fit with OG (24) or GTJ (23) or Precious (22)?

Even if Scottie takes 3-4 years to be a real superstar (if he ever does), FVV/Siakam would only be 30 and it is not like 30 is some death sentence in this league any longer.

Toronto could make absolutely 0 moves over the next two years and I don't see how the current roster with 2 years of development and experience is not a better team than they are today.

[payton2kemp]

The Raptors still look like a lock for a playoffs again next year, but probably still wont be good enough to get out of the 1st Round.

I think that if the Raptors re-up on both Gary and Fred on extensions next year, they're on a classic 'treadmill'. Running it back with the same core roster season after season. But is that we worst thing?

The term treadmill is generally overused though, and probably has more negative connotation than it deserves. You're either contending or you aren't, and only a handful of teams are truly contenders each season. Last time we had a 'treadmill core', we traded for Kawhi and won. There are many ways to get to where you want to go

They probably should make the playoffs again next year, but I can easily see them as 7-8 seed instead of the 5th seed. Brooklyn was 1st/2nd all season until KD went down in January, IF healthy a big if they can easily be a top 5 seed next year. The Cavs were also a top 5 seed all season until Allen went down and they fell quickly in the standings.

[payton2kemp]

Rising team. 20 year old ROTY, Trent Jr, OG, Precious plus two all-stars in Pascal and Fred. Likely a 50+ win team next year.

Trent and Precious are nothing special, GTJ was pretty bad in the playoffs. Your team is lucky it tanked to get Scottie. FVV looks like a gimpy injury prone player who's to short to play in the switchable defense Nurse is running they should probably trade him before he's knees are gone.

[Los_29]

Rising team. 20 year old ROTY, Trent Jr, OG, Precious plus two all-stars in Pascal and Fred. Likely a 50+ win team next year.

Trent and Precious are nothing special, GTJ was pretty bad in the playoffs. Your team is lucky it tanked to get Scottie. FVV looks like a gimpy injury prone player who's to short to play in the switchable defense Nurse is running they should probably trade him before he's knees are gone.

Oh look who it is, Mr. "the Toronto Raptors are a lottery team and the Bulls have way more talent." Yeah that didn't age well. No one will take your opinion seriously because you can't be objective. If you want to contribute and have a productive and meaningful discussion, then you need to post something insightful and somewhat coherent. I stopped reading after your first sentence. Let's cut the childish nonsense out.

[payton2kemp]

Rising team. 20 year old ROTY, Trent Jr, OG, Precious plus two all-stars in Pascal and Fred. Likely a 50+ win team next year.

Trent and Precious are nothing special, GTJ was pretty bad in the playoffs. Your team is lucky it tanked to get Scottie. FVV looks like a gimpy injury prone player who's to short to play in the switchable defense Nurse is running they should probably trade him before he's knees are gone.

Oh look who it is, Mr. "the Toronto Raptors are a lottery team and the Bulls have way more talent." Yeah that didn't age well. No one will take your opinion seriously because you can't be objective. If you want to contribute and have a productive and meaningful discussion, then you need to post something insightful and somewhat coherent. I stopped reading after your first sentence. Let's cut the childish nonsense out.

You sound very upset. Learn to relax.

[Backcountry]

If the Raptors do nothing other than strengthen the bench so that the starters don't lead the league in minutes played, they should be easily in the top six of the EC playoffs again. But that's looking at it in isolation, not being able to predict what all the other teams will do between now and October, injuries, player meltdowns etc.

It's also not what they want, they want to be in the top 4, so I expect some of what Nurse said today to come true as upgrades.

[Clutch0z24]

Stop with this Raptors being a treadmill team nonsense ....Any team that is a treadmill type of team do not have the Rookie of the year and a potential franchise changing player like that....They are teams with alot of Vets/1 All star who is not an all NBA type but just hanging around with that squad ...We have young growing players still developing and made it to the playoffs when we shouldn't have thats not treadmilling....

[Scottie4Bro]

I think you realistically just move GTJ to the bench to be our 6th man. With enough improvements in the off-season he might actually win Sixth Man of the Year next season, and that would be fantastic for him concerning his next contract. You could probably convince him.

Fred/OG/Barnes/Siakam/New C would be a good idea. Rounding it out with a solid bench of GTJ, Precious, Boucher, Thad possibly, our #33 pick, and maybe a few training camp invites like Jalen Harris a couple other standout shooter tryouts. Then you just retain Banton, Champagnie, and Flynn for another year and see how they develop.

[Kalela]

Beal with this Raptors roster would make that team formidable.

[Courtside]

I love how all the treadmill BS posts claim that "Siakam and FVV aren't on the Barnes timeline".

Was Duncan on the Robinson timeline?
Was Kawhi on the Duncan timeline?
Was Rondo on the Garnett+Pierce+Allen timeline?
Were Siakam+FVV on the Lowry+Gasol+Ibaka timeline?

This delusion that all players need to be in the same age group is crazy. You need players of varying ages and skill types and contract levels in order to build a roster. If everyone is the same age and high caliber, then you're going to have payroll problems. You need a mix of salary levels to make it work, and even if their windows only overlap a couple of years at their contender peak, that's OK. Siakam and FVV can br moved in a year or two or three, or maybe later still.

This isn't being presented as a complete championship contending roster. Of course there will be some moves and growth and picks and FAs in between today and a this team's peak - which isn't now - but is being timed to start happening when the current Bucks and Heat and Nets and Sixers have to start cycling down, due to player age and contracts. If the window of Scottie's peak is say, 2025-2033, then you may get a couple of deep playoff runs with this group that then trades away a vet or two for either better talents or better fitting pieces or bench depth, either young or old.

It's having no picks and bloated unmovable contracts that most cripples teams from getting off their treadmill of mediocre success. You can't look at a team that missed the playoffs last year and ascended to the playoffs this year and has the ROY and continuity to improve going into next year as a treadmill team. They are ascending, which the poll results are in obvious agreement with.

It's not like the team has a poor draft record, or decade of futility, or has traded away all their picks for bloated vet contracts. Everyone is productive and eminently tradeable, and the org has highly respected, highly sought after people at all levels. This is the winningest team in the East over the past decade, making the playoffs 8 of the last 9 years, and has not being a top tier FA destination, they know it's the draft or trades or development system where they make their moves.

Patience, grasshoppers. All is as planned.

[payton2kemp]

Patience, grasshoppers. All is as planned.

Well it was the end of patience with Demar that led to that championship team lol. And yes age doesn't matter as much as talent, Siakam/FVV ain't no Kawhi.

[BlackThought]

lol these other fanbases need to chill. This is only year 2 of the rebuild/reload and you guys are already calling Toronto a treadmill team. At least wait a few years and see if the team goes anywhere and THEN start calling them a treadmill team. Until then you guys sound like idiots saying all this after the team went from 27 wins (in a 72 game season) to 48 wins and drafting the ROY.

[Badonkadonk]

The criteria that haters are using to define "treadmill" would have virtually every team in that category, it's pretty stupid.

The team has the ROY, some very nice pieces in their early 20s (GTJ, OG, Precious), some great (and moveable) if needed prime guys in their mid 20s (FVV, Pascal)... and most importantly, one of the best front offices in the league.

Masai has built an organization that is just as comfortable drafting/developing as it is making major deals (Demar <> Kawhi, Gasol <> JV). They can take the team in any direction.

If people consider that "treadmill", I'm 100% fine with that label