The best PG man defender ever

[70sFan]

As I have been watching playoffs this year, I started thinking - is Jrue the best shutdown defender ever at his position? Who would you consider over him?

I've been working on KC Jones defensive video and although he was very pesky defender, he didn't have anywhere near the same versatility. That's what stands out with Jrue - he's extremely quick and disciplined, yet he had this powerful lower body base.

[kcktiny]

Walt Frazier, Don Buse, Gary Payton.

I've been working on KC Jones defensive video and although he was very pesky defender, he didn't have anywhere near the same versatility.

Jones is considered one of the greatest defensive PGs ever. In your research what have you found that he did not do that say Holiday does?

If Jones forced turnovers at a high rate back then, say at a rate like Slick Watts did in the early-to-mid 70s, that would have been incredibly valuable to a team.

For example Jerry West at the age of 35 averaged 2.6 steals per game playing just 31 min/g. Was that a fluke or consistent with what he did earlier in his career? Over an 11 year stretch he played 40 min/g. Was he averaging 3 steals per game over most of his career?

It's hard to watch film and count steals as a player may get just 3 per game (may be easy to miss one) - but 3 steals per game is very valuable defensively.

[migya]

Gary Payton, Walt Frazier and Jerry West.

[70sFan]

Jones is considered one of the greatest defensive PGs ever. In your research what have you found that he did not do that say Holiday does?

Well, Jones was considerably smaller and he couldn't defend bigger players nearly as well as Holiday can. His lack of size also hurt him inside, because he was basically no factor as a rim protector.

Jones was probably a bit quicker, but I don't think about any other potential advantage that he had over Jrue.

If Jones forced turnovers at a high rate back then, say at a rate like Slick Watts did in the early-to-mid 70s, that would have been incredibly valuable to a team.

He was great at creating turnovers. Not only he had quick hands and was good at passing lanes, but he also knew when and how to double on-ball players. That's not a part of man defense though, which is the topic of this thread.

For example Jerry West at the age of 35 averaged 2.6 steals per game playing just 31 min/g. Was that a fluke or consistent with what he did earlier in his career? Over an 11 year stretch he played 40 min/g. Was he averaging 3 steals per game over most of his career?

It's hard to watch film and count steals as a player may get just 3 per game (may be easy to miss one) - but 3 steals per game is very valuable defensively.

West is a different animal, I'm quite confident he had seasons above 3 spg. His help defense was on another level to KC Jones or Jrue, the question is related to man defense though.

[70sFan]

Gary Payton, Walt Frazier and Jerry West.

What do you think they did better than Jrue? I think that Payton and West weren't nearly as strong, which could hurt them more against bigger players.

[migya]

Gary Payton, Walt Frazier and Jerry West.

What do you think they did better than Jrue? I think that Payton and West weren't nearly as strong, which could hurt them more against bigger players.

Hard to compare with era but on ball defense. Payton was a bull hounding guards.

[ShotCreator]

It’s probably Tony Allen. Kind of takes Jrue’s approach and does it with a little more speed and a lot more physicality and better hands.

GP2 is quickly in these conversations IMO.

Eric Bledsoe, Baron Davis, Nate McMillan are some of the best I’ve seen that don’t get mentioned.

Athletic peak Patty Mills is not as strong as other names but quickness and IQ were extremely high.

He faced athletic peak Westbrook twice in his prime and pretty much looked amazing. Westbrook slammed guys like Beverley and CP3 off the dribble. Had the raw speed to overwhelm Holiday too.

You just won’t find many guys with truly astonishing footspeed like Patty.

But if you do it’ll look like Muggsy Bogues. Another exceptional athlete he probably won’t get an honest mention in these talks.

Holiday some high defensive highs against flawed lead guards but I don’t think he’s as resilient as Allen.

Tiered up with the other names. I’m sure there’s some i’m forgetting.

And other I know less about with some strong reps historically.

[mdonnelly1989]

As I have been watching playoffs this year, I started thinking - is Jrue the best shutdown defender ever at his position? Who would you consider over him?

I've been working on KC Jones defensive video and although he was very pesky defender, he didn't have anywhere near the same versatility. That's what stands out with Jrue - he's extremely quick and disciplined, yet he had this powerful lower body base.

I'm surprised you would take him over Walt Frazier who I've heard is Goated at that position.

[Texas Chuck]

Best I've ever seen was Scottie Pippen. He would just absolutely prevent teams from getting into their sets when he would assign himself to the PG. I think a lot of people forget those Bulls teams were dominant defensively with all the Mike hoopla, and he was absolutely the head of the snake.

Jrue is great, but Pippen was just unbelievable.

[jalengreen]

It’s probably Tony Allen. Kind of takes Jrue’s approach and does it with a little more speed and a lot more physicality and better hands.

GP2 is quickly in these conversations IMO.

Eric Bledsoe, Baron Davis, Nate McMillan are some of the best I’ve seen that don’t get mentioned.

Athletic peak Patty Mills is not as strong as other names but quickness and IQ were extremely high.

He faced athletic peak Westbrook twice in his prime and pretty much looked amazing. Westbrook slammed guys like Beverley and CP3 off the dribble. Had the raw speed to overwhelm Holiday too.

You just won’t find many guys with truly astonishing footspeed like Patty.

But if you do it’ll look like Muggsy Bogues. Another exceptional athlete he probably won’t get an honest mention in these talks.

Holiday some high defensive highs against flawed lead guards but I don’t think he’s as resilient as Allen.

Tiered up with the other names. I’m sure there’s some i’m forgetting.

And other I know less about with some strong reps historically.

GP2 is incredible but this is like his first season with meaningful playtime. i think it's a bit early to put him in the conversation

[70sFan]

As I have been watching playoffs this year, I started thinking - is Jrue the best shutdown defender ever at his position? Who would you consider over him?

I've been working on KC Jones defensive video and although he was very pesky defender, he didn't have anywhere near the same versatility. That's what stands out with Jrue - he's extremely quick and disciplined, yet he had this powerful lower body base.

I'm surprised you would take him over Walt Frazier who I've heard is Goated at that position.

I'm not sure I would, Frazier was unbelievable. Jrue is slightly better at contesting shooters, while Frazier was a bit quicker laterally and had quicker hands. I have a very tough time between them.

[70sFan]

Best I've ever seen was Scottie Pippen. He would just absolutely prevent teams from getting into their sets when he would assign himself to the PG. I think a lot of people forget those Bulls teams were dominant defensively with all the Mike hoopla, and he was absolutely the head of the snake.

Jrue is great, but Pippen was just unbelievable.

Pippen didn't guard PGs that often though and he wasn't quick enough to defend the quickest guards.

[falcolombardi]

Walt Frazier, Don Buse, Gary Payton.

I've been working on KC Jones defensive video and although he was very pesky defender, he didn't have anywhere near the same versatility.

Jones is considered one of the greatest defensive PGs ever. In your research what have you found that he did not do that say Holiday does?

If Jones forced turnovers at a high rate back then, say at a rate like Slick Watts did in the early-to-mid 70s, that would have been incredibly valuable to a team.

For example Jerry West at the age of 35 averaged 2.6 steals per game playing just 31 min/g. Was that a fluke or consistent with what he did earlier in his career? Over an 11 year stretch he played 40 min/g. Was he averaging 3 steals per game over most of his career?

It's hard to watch film and count steals as a player may get just 3 per game (may be easy to miss one) - but 3 steals per game is very valuable defensively.

steals by themselves are like points without knowing efficiency

if you dont know the "cost" of them (how many whiffed steal attenpts cost his team points) then the raw steals dont tell much

[penbeast0]

steals by themselves are like points without knowing efficiency

if you dont know the "cost" of them (how many whiffed steal attenpts cost his team points) then the raw steals dont tell much

Having Bill Russell behind you helps make gambling for steals less costly so KC Jones's steals were probably good gambles.

[kcktiny]

steals by themselves are like points without knowing efficiency. if you dont know the "cost" of them (how many whiffed steal attenpts cost his team points) then the raw steals dont tell much

Of the 14 times a player played at least 1/2 a season and averaged 3+ steals per game, that player was named to the all-defensive team 12 times. Does that tell you much?

Slick Watts (1)
Don Buse (1)
Michael Ray Richardson (1)
Alvin Robertson (5)
Michael Jordan (1)
John Stockton (2)
Nate McMillan (1)

[penbeast0]

If you assume the All-D team is a good measure of defensive excellence, then it does but players with high steal totals are the most likely to be overrated as defenders.

Just out of curiousity, who were the other two?

[70sFan]

steals by themselves are like points without knowing efficiency. if you dont know the "cost" of them (how many whiffed steal attenpts cost his team points) then the raw steals dont tell much

Of the 14 times a player played at least 1/2 a season and averaged 3+ steals per game, that player was named to the all-defensive team 12 times. Does that tell you much?

Slick Watts (1)
Don Buse (1)
Michael Ray Richardson (1)
Alvin Robertson (5)
Michael Jordan (1)
John Stockton (2)
Nate McMillan (1)

I do think Watts and Robertson selections were questionable.

[kcktiny]

Just out of curiousity, who were the other two?

Two of the above - Richardson and Stockton.

If you assume the All-D team is a good measure of defensive excellence

You know of a better indicator? Especially for players who played decades ago?

players with high steal totals are the most likely to be overrated as defenders.

The following players grabbed 200+ steals in a season more than once:

Rick Barry
Mookie Blaylock
Maurice Cheeks
Clyde Drexler
Rickey Green
Eddie Jordan
Michael Jordan
Fat Lever
Chris Paul
Gary Payton
Scottie Pippen
Michael Ray Richardson
Alvin Robertson
John Stockton
Slick Watts

Which of these 15 do you feel were most likely overrated as defenders?

I do think Watts and Robertson selections were questionable.

Based on what?

Watts was all-defense in just his 3rd season in the league, when he set the league record for steals with 261. Do you realize how hard it is to grab that many steals in just a single season? A player has not grabbed that many steals in a season since the 1980s. That's over 3 decades ago.

Heck - since the 1990s a player has grabbed 200+ steals in a season just 3 times, and no one has done so in the past 13 seasons. So people watching the NBA today who are not old enough to have watched it in the 70s and 80s really have no clue as to how valuable defensively - the huge impact - that many steals is to a team's defense.

As for Robertson he is flat out one of the greatest all-around defensive SGs I've ever seen. Not only did he force turnovers at a very high rate but he could flat out shut opponents scoring down:

https://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/5945/your-nightmare-defender-alvin-robertson-edition

[falcolombardi]

steals by themselves are like points without knowing efficiency

if you dont know the "cost" of them (how many whiffed steal attenpts cost his team points) then the raw steals dont tell much

Having Bill Russell behind you helps make gambling for steals less costly so KC Jones's steals were probably good gambles.

that would take a fair bit of shine off kc jones steal numbers then, getting steals is a lot easier if you dont worry about the backline

[Texas Chuck]

Best I've ever seen was Scottie Pippen. He would just absolutely prevent teams from getting into their sets when he would assign himself to the PG. I think a lot of people forget those Bulls teams were dominant defensively with all the Mike hoopla, and he was absolutely the head of the snake.

Jrue is great, but Pippen was just unbelievable.

Pippen didn't guard PGs that often though and he wasn't quick enough to defend the quickest guards.

I won't pretend to remember his entire career as to say what percentage of time he spent on PG's but definitely enough to where I took note of it. And I definitely don't have memories of quick PG's giving him fits. Do you have any specific players you believe abused him?

I say this because I remember distinctly when teams would get into a groove against the Bulls, the counter was always Pippen moving onto the PG and he would just wreak absolute havoc on their ability to run sets because he wouldn't let the opposing PG do anything. For all the narrative about Mike getting mad and shutting down opponents, I remember it was Pippen who did this far more frequently.

And as a Mavs fan, the 90's were an absolute dearth of NBA quality basketball so I used to watch every Bulls game on WGN to get my fix. And that is ingrained in my memory, how Pippen would clamp down PG's as needed.

I understand he might not be the best PG defender based on volume, but when he did it, I've still never seen anyone better in my life.