The best PG man defender ever

[70sFan]

Best I've ever seen was Scottie Pippen. He would just absolutely prevent teams from getting into their sets when he would assign himself to the PG. I think a lot of people forget those Bulls teams were dominant defensively with all the Mike hoopla, and he was absolutely the head of the snake.

Jrue is great, but Pippen was just unbelievable.

Pippen didn't guard PGs that often though and he wasn't quick enough to defend the quickest guards.

I won't pretend to remember his entire career as to say what percentage of time he spent on PG's but definitely enough to where I took note of it. And I definitely don't have memories of quick PG's giving him fits. Do you have any specific players you believe abused him?

I say this because I remember distinctly when teams would get into a groove against the Bulls, the counter was always Pippen moving onto the PG and he would just wreak absolute havoc on their ability to run sets because he wouldn't let the opposing PG do anything. For all the narrative about Mike getting mad and shutting down opponents, I remember it was Pippen who did this far more frequently.

And as a Mavs fan, the 90's were an absolute dearth of NBA quality basketball so I used to watch every Bulls game on WGN to get my fix. And that is ingrained in my memory, how Pippen would clamp down PG's as needed.

I understand he might not be the best PG defender based on volume, but when he did it, I've still never seen anyone better in my life.

I would have to sit down and rewatch some of Bulls games, but I remember moments when Pippen couldn't stand in front of some of the quicker players (not necessarily guards). Of all anecdotal evidences, I can only think of him defending Magic (who was old and definitely not quick) and Mark Jackson (who was the opposite of described players). Do you remember any other situations when he shut down opposing guard?

[Texas Chuck]

Do you remember any other situations when he shut down opposing guard?

it's been 25 years or so, so I don't have clear memories of specific quick guards, but what I do remember is the pattern and how I as a (small ball) 4, would do the same thing in my high school games and tell our PG, I'm taking this guy and slowing them down. I wasn't skilled, but I was quick and long and lived to play defense and I very much was actively trying to emulate Pippen. That's why despite my inability to provide specific players he was doing this to, I am sure it happened--because it influenced my own game.

And I can even remember when he was an old man in Portland where he was literally playing PG for much of his tenure with them, still defending the position. At that point, I can see how some lightning bug types might have been a tougher matchup, but in his prime? In Chicago? I have zero recollection of that.

[falcolombardi]

Do you remember any other situations when he shut down opposing guard?

it's been 25 years or so, so I don't have clear memories of specific quick guards, but what I do remember is the pattern and how I as a (small ball) 4, would do the same thing in my high school games and tell our PG, I'm taking this guy and slowing them down. I wasn't skilled, but I was quick and long and lived to play defense and I very much was actively trying to emulate Pippen. That's why despite my inability to provide specific players he was doing this to, I am sure it happened--because it influenced my own game.

And I can even remember when he was an old man in Portland where he was literally playing PG for much of his tenure with them, still defending the position. At that point, I can see how some lightning bug types might have been a tougher matchup, but in his prime? In Chicago? I have zero recollection of that.

fwiw ben taylor profile of pippen argued that he was not so well suited (relatively speaking) to defending speedy guards and said he had a high rate of being beat by them

and ben is high as hell on pippen

it makes a lot of theorical sense that a guy so tall with such a high center of gravity would have some issues staying in front of small speedsters even if lenght was definetely a equalizer in many situations

[mdonnelly1989]

As I have been watching playoffs this year, I started thinking - is Jrue the best shutdown defender ever at his position? Who would you consider over him?

I've been working on KC Jones defensive video and although he was very pesky defender, he didn't have anywhere near the same versatility. That's what stands out with Jrue - he's extremely quick and disciplined, yet he had this powerful lower body base.

I'm surprised you would take him over Walt Frazier who I've heard is Goated at that position.

I'm not sure I would, Frazier was unbelievable. Jrue is slightly better at contesting shooters, while Frazier was a bit quicker laterally and had quicker hands. I have a very tough time between them.

And where does Jason Kidd fit into the equation?

[70sFan]

I'm surprised you would take him over Walt Frazier who I've heard is Goated at that position.

I'm not sure I would, Frazier was unbelievable. Jrue is slightly better at contesting shooters, while Frazier was a bit quicker laterally and had quicker hands. I have a very tough time between them.

And where does Jason Kidd fit into the equation?

I think Kidd's biggest value comes from other parts of his defense

[Texas Chuck]

Do you remember any other situations when he shut down opposing guard?

it's been 25 years or so, so I don't have clear memories of specific quick guards, but what I do remember is the pattern and how I as a (small ball) 4, would do the same thing in my high school games and tell our PG, I'm taking this guy and slowing them down. I wasn't skilled, but I was quick and long and lived to play defense and I very much was actively trying to emulate Pippen. That's why despite my inability to provide specific players he was doing this to, I am sure it happened--because it influenced my own game.

And I can even remember when he was an old man in Portland where he was literally playing PG for much of his tenure with them, still defending the position. At that point, I can see how some lightning bug types might have been a tougher matchup, but in his prime? In Chicago? I have zero recollection of that.

fwiw ben taylor profile of pippen argued that he was not so well suited (relatively speaking) to defending speedy guards and said he had a high rate of being beat by them

and ben is high as hell on pippen

it makes a lot of theorical sense that a guy so tall with such a high center of gravity would have some issues staying in front of small speedsters even if lenght was definetely a equalizer in many situations

I will have to check and see if he has a video on this. I am not high on El Gee as an analyst generally speaking, but if he has some video to back up his claims, that will at least illustrate it happened to a degree.

But 6'7" is not that tall. Marion defended PG's in Dallas because Kidd really was struggling with quick PG's at that point. Dorian Finney-Smith defends them for Dallas now and he's taller than that.

But appreciate the insight. It appears 16 year old Chuck might not have been seeing exactly what he thought he was seeing.

[mdonnelly1989]

I'm not sure I would, Frazier was unbelievable. Jrue is slightly better at contesting shooters, while Frazier was a bit quicker laterally and had quicker hands. I have a very tough time between them.

And where does Jason Kidd fit into the equation?

I think Kidd's biggest value comes from other parts of his defense

Yeah but you would take Jrue over him overall as a defender?

[penbeast0]

Frazier played in the NBA era of the big PG. Calvin Murphy was the only real dangerous small superquick scoring type I remember from his prime years (though I could be forgetting someone). Anyone know how well Frazier handled Murphy?

Note: ABA had Mack Calvin, but merger was post prime for both Calvin and Clyde.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Gary Payton & Kobe, are the best I've seen on PGs. Kidd was really good, Frazier was in a different era and didn't face modern PGs. Should add in Dumars & Eric Snow.

[LewisnotMiller]

Best I've ever seen was Scottie Pippen. He would just absolutely prevent teams from getting into their sets when he would assign himself to the PG. I think a lot of people forget those Bulls teams were dominant defensively with all the Mike hoopla, and he was absolutely the head of the snake.

Jrue is great, but Pippen was just unbelievable.

Pippen didn't guard PGs that often though and he wasn't quick enough to defend the quickest guards.

I won't pretend to remember his entire career as to say what percentage of time he spent on PG's but definitely enough to where I took note of it. And I definitely don't have memories of quick PG's giving him fits. Do you have any specific players you believe abused him?

I say this because I remember distinctly when teams would get into a groove against the Bulls, the counter was always Pippen moving onto the PG and he would just wreak absolute havoc on their ability to run sets because he wouldn't let the opposing PG do anything. For all the narrative about Mike getting mad and shutting down opponents, I remember it was Pippen who did this far more frequently.

And as a Mavs fan, the 90's were an absolute dearth of NBA quality basketball so I used to watch every Bulls game on WGN to get my fix. And that is ingrained in my memory, how Pippen would clamp down PG's as needed.

I understand he might not be the best PG defender based on volume, but when he did it, I've still never seen anyone better in my life.

Pippen regularly roamed about, guarding pretty much anyone who was a problem, and pushed the boundaries of illegal defence rules beautifully. He'd be even more damaging now.

I don't remember him guarding the absolute water-bug point guards like Kevin Johnson, but I absolutely remember him giving John Stockton problems in running sets, which is no mean feat when we're talking prime Stockton.

In relation to the OP it gets hard to give a simple answer without context. Avery Bradley was great at hounding point guards, but was not as impactful as a team defender. Some of the best PG defenders would be non-PGs (like Pippen, or Robertson or Allen) but is it fair to include them?

Meh...suffice to say Jrue is exceptional. Strong, quick enough, disciplined and versatile.

[LewisnotMiller]

Gary Payton & Kobe, are the best I've seen on PGs. Kidd was really good, Frazier was in a different era and didn't face modern PGs. Should add in Dumars & Eric Snow.

I'd leave Kobe out of my list, as I don't think he brought it every night. When he did, he was excellent.
Payton, Frazier and Snow all quality mentions. All had some size, strength and versatility, much like Holiday.

Dumars...my recollection is that he was a brilliantly smart defender, made the right play most of the tim etc...but was a little less forceful than some of these guys. Basically he was trying to lower his opponents efficiency more than completely dominating them. But I suspect my recollection is overly coloured by his work in playoff series against a couple of teams, and isn't accurate. He was certainly good.

[LewisnotMiller]

Frazier played in the NBA era of the big PG. Calvin Murphy was the only real dangerous small superquick scoring type I remember from his prime years (though I could be forgetting someone). Anyone know how well Frazier handled Murphy?

Note: ABA had Mack Calvin, but merger was post prime for both Calvin and Clyde.

Tiny Archibald?

Though they never faced off against each other in the playoffs, the two did have 26 regular season head-to-head matchups – Frazier’s Knicks overwhelmingly came out on top (18-8), but the point guard battle was evenly matched: Archibald averaged 24.1 points, 2.8 rebounds, and 6.5 assists per game in mostly losing efforts to Frazier’s 21.7 points, 5.7 rebounds, and 5.2 assists per game.

Source : https://sportsh2h.com/h2h-106-tiny-archibald-vs-walt-frazier-who-was-better/

[penbeast0]

Thanks, I did forget Tiny.

[DQuinn1575]

Pippen didn't guard PGs that often though and he wasn't quick enough to defend the quickest guards.

I won't pretend to remember his entire career as to say what percentage of time he spent on PG's but definitely enough to where I took note of it. And I definitely don't have memories of quick PG's giving him fits. Do you have any specific players you believe abused him?

I say this because I remember distinctly when teams would get into a groove against the Bulls, the counter was always Pippen moving onto the PG and he would just wreak absolute havoc on their ability to run sets because he wouldn't let the opposing PG do anything. For all the narrative about Mike getting mad and shutting down opponents, I remember it was Pippen who did this far more frequently.

And as a Mavs fan, the 90's were an absolute dearth of NBA quality basketball so I used to watch every Bulls game on WGN to get my fix. And that is ingrained in my memory, how Pippen would clamp down PG's as needed.

I understand he might not be the best PG defender based on volume, but when he did it, I've still never seen anyone better in my life.

I would have to sit down and rewatch some of Bulls games, but I remember moments when Pippen couldn't stand in front of some of the quicker players (not necessarily guards). Of all anecdotal evidences, I can only think of him defending Magic (who was old and definitely not quick) and Mark Jackson (who was the opposite of described players). Do you remember any other situations when he shut down opposing guard?

I would take Frazier first - he was big enough, played some forward in college, and he also disrupted players a lot with his steals. He did a good job on West in both Finals.

Pippen rarely guarded point guards for the Bulls.
Jordan was very quick, moved his feet very well, he was a very good point guard defender. I dont think Pippen guarded a point guard prior to the 91 Finals. The Bulls other starting guard pre Harper was never good defensively, so at times Jordan did play the point on defense.

[70sFan]

And where does Jason Kidd fit into the equation?

I think Kidd's biggest value comes from other parts of his defense

Yeah but you would take Jrue over him overall as a defender?

Probably yes

[70sFan]

Frazier played in the NBA era of the big PG. Calvin Murphy was the only real dangerous small superquick scoring type I remember from his prime years (though I could be forgetting someone). Anyone know how well Frazier handled Murphy?

Note: ABA had Mack Calvin, but merger was post prime for both Calvin and Clyde.

I have one of their matchup from 1975 and Monroe mostly guarded Murphy, not Frazier.

As mentioned, Archibald also fits in this archetype. Players like Dave Bing or Archie Clark were a bit bigger, but also could be mentioned here.