Jalen Brunson obsession

[KnicksNext]

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It looks like we’ve been grant hilled Again Folksssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Leon rose and co can’t even get the c-list Free Agents!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This will be a typical Knicks offseason.

Knicks won't budge in the draft.
Brunson will re-sign with Dallas.
The Jazz will choose to move Gobert and keep Mitchell.
Zion will sing an extension .
Mitch will walk.
The Knicks will be stuck with every bad contract the hucksters frauded the fan with
Randle will still be starting
RJ will be forced into the your turn/my turn offense Thibs loves
Obi will either be traded or again be forced into the Randle stunt man role.
....and Noel will be preparing to be our starter

Rose
RJ
Fournier
Randle
Noel



[b][b][b][/b][/b][/b]
LET'S F*CKING GET THIS OVER WITH ALREADY!!

The most disgusting part of this lineup, is that it's likely this will be the lineup we roll out in October. I honestly don't think I'll be watching if this is what we as fans are given. I can't watch this season all over again, I just can't.

[KnicksNext]

I could definitely see Mitch trying to go home especially with home N.O is playing now. We don’t need to sclera 30 mil in space, in no way would Dallas let Brunson go for free if he decided he wanted to move to NY. I would do 20x4yrs and possibly add Burks and Noel. If they would take Randle than that would be perfect.

Mitch to NOP? Yes, seems possible he'd want to do that.

On the other part: in the post a couple up you talk about clearing space. Now you're talking about a trade, it seems. Which is it?
If the Knicks were capable of clearing space and Brunson wants to come to NYK then the Mavs desires are irrelevant. If the Knicks want to trade for Brunson, whether the Mavs would countenance a trade and what the Mavs would want back if so becomes very relevant.

Brunson for Randle are you nuts, when was Brunson ever an all star.

The knicks will lose Mitch 10 minutes into the start of FA, you will be getting that alert on your phones little after.

Not sure if serious..

[KnicksNext]

At the end of the day, like I've said before and I'm sure I'll say again, folks need to really stop with the getting too high when a player goes good and then getting too low when the player goes bad.

Brunson is who he is. A very good player that can play both guard positions, is aggressive, is physical and that is a good team guy. He is not a star or a superstar caliber player. Just like Fred Van Vleet wasn't last season. Just like Patty Mills was many years ago when many of you were pushing him as the "solution" for the Knicks PG problems. Just like folks were saying about Mardy Collins when the Knicks drafted him back in 2006. The list goes on and on and on.

Just be realistic. I don't get why people have to build up these crazy images of what a guy is and can be. Fans do this all the type, they set themselves up for disappointment by building guys up to unrealistic expectations. We've done this with every single lottery pick and every single semi big free agent signing or trade. Then when they inevitably show they cannot live to those unrealistic expectations fans turn on them.

If anyone ever heard the term "vicious cycle", that's what it means and what his happening now with Brunson.

Why is this a fact? Dude has improved significantly every year in the league, is a proven winner (see Villanova) with a great head on his shoulders. He's also known as a hard worker, and has obviously listened to coaching a lot to improve like this over year. Why is he capped out at 25? Does that mean Obi is capped out at 24?

[KnicksNext]

At the end of the day, like I've said before and I'm sure I'll say again, folks need to really stop with the getting too high when a player goes good and then getting too low when the player goes bad.

Brunson is who he is. A very good player that can play both guard positions, is aggressive, is physical and that is a good team guy. He is not a star or a superstar caliber player. Just like Fred Van Vleet was last season. Just like Patty Mills was many years ago when many of you were pushing him as the "solution" for the Knicks PG problems.

Just be realistic. I don't get why people have to build up these crazy images of what a guy. Fans do this all the type, they set themselves up for disappointment by building guys up to unrealistic expectations. We've done this with every single lottery pick and every single semi big free agent signing or trade.

If anyone ever heard the term "vicious cycle", that's what it means.

At one point people were saying this about Lowery, Conlely and Dragic. Yet I think Knick fans would have been very happy with any of them in their prime. But back to BRING BACK MUDIAY!!!!! HARD PASS on Morant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

The best thread I've seen in a long time on here was the RJ vs Ja thread. Instant classic. I'm too lazy to pull it up, but would love to see all the posters talking about how they would not consider giving up RJ for Ja. That thread is one of the reasons I love RealGM, and specifically the Knicks board.

In fact, I think I'm going to dig it up. There isn't much else to talk about right now anyway.

[Capn'O]

The 2023 free agency class has basically dried up, there's nobody in it outside of Jokic and he just said if offered the max extension he's taking it. All of their moves were meant to be ready for 2023 and the fridge is empty

Dang it! We're just gonna have to build through the draft. What a pity.

How many years is that going to take? If we're going that route, that means we're handing RJ 185M, we're going to pay Obi, and what to do about Randle?

I'm all about tanking properly, but the time for that was 5 years ago. Now that we've drafted this next group and some are about to get paid (also if we keep Mitch), we need hit on some picks in a BIG way. Franchise altering talent big way. This group of youth is not getting us anywhere without some serious talent added to the roster via the draft (if that's the route we went)

How many years have we spent not doing it and how did that work out?

[moocow007]

At the end of the day, like I've said before and I'm sure I'll say again, folks need to really stop with the getting too high when a player goes good and then getting too low when the player goes bad.

Brunson is who he is. A very good player that can play both guard positions, is aggressive, is physical and that is a good team guy. He is not a star or a superstar caliber player. Just like Fred Van Vleet wasn't last season. Just like Patty Mills was many years ago when many of you were pushing him as the "solution" for the Knicks PG problems. Just like folks were saying about Mardy Collins when the Knicks drafted him back in 2006. The list goes on and on and on.

Just be realistic. I don't get why people have to build up these crazy images of what a guy is and can be. Fans do this all the type, they set themselves up for disappointment by building guys up to unrealistic expectations. We've done this with every single lottery pick and every single semi big free agent signing or trade. Then when they inevitably show they cannot live to those unrealistic expectations fans turn on them.

If anyone ever heard the term "vicious cycle", that's what it means and what his happening now with Brunson.

Why is this a fact? Dude has improved significantly every year in the league, is a proven winner (see Villanova) with a great head on his shoulders. He's also known as a hard worker, and has obviously listened to coaching a lot to improve like this over year. Why is he capped out at 25? Does that mean Obi is capped out at 24?

He has? He made a big jump in his contract year is what he's done. And it's not like it was a stellar year compared to the other top guards in the league.

And why aren't folks stroking his wad now that he's fell back down to earth playing a team that actually isn't falling apart? Let me guess, you guys going to blame Doncic for holding him back now? There's a difference between a very good player and a player that fans are riding his jock on. If you think that he's worth $25+ million a year over 5 years based on one very good (not spectacular) contract season and 3 playoff games, then more power to you. You and many of the other guys are missing the point. He's played himself into a big contract. One that won't likely be a bargain and if he doesn't perform like what some of you expect (which is outrageously good as history have shown) then he'll not be a good contract.

And I wouldn't max Obi right now either despite him looking "spectacular" for a short run near the end of the season when the games no longer counted (some of you guys have already annointed him the Knicks starting PF of the future...I'm sure the Amare comps will come back soon too) so that has what to do with what?

[moocow007]

Mitch to NOP? Yes, seems possible he'd want to do that.

On the other part: in the post a couple up you talk about clearing space. Now you're talking about a trade, it seems. Which is it?
If the Knicks were capable of clearing space and Brunson wants to come to NYK then the Mavs desires are irrelevant. If the Knicks want to trade for Brunson, whether the Mavs would countenance a trade and what the Mavs would want back if so becomes very relevant.

Brunson for Randle are you nuts, when was Brunson ever an all star.

The knicks will lose Mitch 10 minutes into the start of FA, you will be getting that alert on your phones little after.

Not sure if serious..

To be fair, when has Brunson been an All-Star?

[moocow007]

Once again, outside of how the trade gets larger and more complicated assuming Brunson really wants the Knicks etc - I think he'd be a solid addition to the PG/Guard rotation.

Even if you are an IQ believer, Brunson isn't a bad idea. They can split PG and either one can get additional minutes at SG.

Like a lot of decisions the Knicks need to make, they generally involve several other cascading decisions, decisions that would exist even if this was an NBA 2K scenario and Knicks could make every move they or we want them to make, with ease.

Like, Knicks get Brunson, is Mitch in the S&T?
Would the Knicks not mind putting Mitch in the S&T because they want to open minutes at the 5 for Randle/Obi and more small ball?

If Brunson comes, do the Knicks trade D Rose and let Brunson/IQ run point?
If not, can IQ's minutes come at SG instead? Is that enough? What about Grimes?

If Grimes gets pushed to backup SF, since we'll assume Fournier is still here and we are totally ignoring Burks, would the Knicks really want to give those minutes to Grimes instead of Cam?

If Cam is pushed out of backup SF, are there ANY backup minutes behind Obi or Randle at PF?

Maybe the Knicks want to move on from Mitch Robinson but want Turner and magically get him. Even if they also shed Noel and would be willing to go "small" behind Turner with Randle, there might be a minutes crunch still for Cam or Grimes, even if Burks is gone, if Brunson winds up on the team with Turner but Rose isn't traded.


Another TL/DR - yes, the Knicks are going to get 4 roster spots opened up next year by Burks, Noel, Rose and Taj coming off the books,and possibly 5 with Cam, but they'll still have a draft pick and then another draft coming up.

We all have our young players we root for, we'd like to keep all of them, but they really can't. And sure, in theory it's easy to discount Burks and Noel, but harder to actually get rid of them. Fournier we can't assume is just "gone" in some trade and same for Randle, not matter how much he pisses off 3/4's of the fanbase.

Knicks have some navigating to do. Not sure this FO is up to the task. Probably not.
Knicks need some roster consolidation

He's not a bad idea as long as he doesn't become overpaid for what he can realistically do. If and when that happens, then he becomes a bad idea cause the Knicks simply cannot waste contracts like they've done the past 2+ decades.

[HarthorneWingo]

Once again, outside of how the trade gets larger and more complicated assuming Brunson really wants the Knicks etc - I think he'd be a solid addition to the PG/Guard rotation.

Even if you are an IQ believer, Brunson isn't a bad idea. They can split PG and either one can get additional minutes at SG.

Like a lot of decisions the Knicks need to make, they generally involve several other cascading decisions, decisions that would exist even if this was an NBA 2K scenario and Knicks could make every move they or we want them to make, with ease.

Like, Knicks get Brunson, is Mitch in the S&T?
Would the Knicks not mind putting Mitch in the S&T because they want to open minutes at the 5 for Randle/Obi and more small ball?

If Brunson comes, do the Knicks trade D Rose and let Brunson/IQ run point?
If not, can IQ's minutes come at SG instead? Is that enough? What about Grimes?

If Grimes gets pushed to backup SF, since we'll assume Fournier is still here and we are totally ignoring Burks, would the Knicks really want to give those minutes to Grimes instead of Cam?

If Cam is pushed out of backup SF, are there ANY backup minutes behind Obi or Randle at PF?

Maybe the Knicks want to move on from Mitch Robinson but want Turner and magically get him. Even if they also shed Noel and would be willing to go "small" behind Turner with Randle, there might be a minutes crunch still for Cam or Grimes, even if Burks is gone, if Brunson winds up on the team with Turner but Rose isn't traded.


Another TL/DR - yes, the Knicks are going to get 4 roster spots opened up next year by Burks, Noel, Rose and Taj coming off the books,and possibly 5 with Cam, but they'll still have a draft pick and then another draft coming up.

We all have our young players we root for, we'd like to keep all of them, but they really can't. And sure, in theory it's easy to discount Burks and Noel, but harder to actually get rid of them. Fournier we can't assume is just "gone" in some trade and same for Randle, not matter how much he pisses off 3/4's of the fanbase.

Knicks have some navigating to do. Not sure this FO is up to the task. Probably not.
Knicks need some roster consolidation

He's not a bad idea as long as he doesn't become overpaid for what he can realistically do. If and when that happens, then he becomes a bad idea cause the Knicks simply cannot waste contracts like they've done the past 2+ decades.

Is Brunson that much better than IQ’s ceiling? Because if not, then we should continue to develop IQ. It’s not like signing Brunson gets us to the second round of the playoffs.

[moocow007]

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Fairer? dumb

Only if Indiana sends a 1st round pick back to the Knicks.

This would be a salary dump for the Pacers if they move Brogdon. When was the last time a salary dump involved the team taking on the salary dump player having to send a lottery pick back to the other team. Brogdon is productive no question but the problem is that he only plays a little more than half the games of an 82 game season. This past season he missed huge chunks due to an Achilles injury. Now you can say that the Pacers were taking and sat him intentionally even if he was ready to play but if you follow the chain of chatter it does appear more so that he just wasn't able to play. We're talking about only 36 games this past season and still has 3 years and $64 million left on his contract. A sore Achilles that lasted that long is not a good sign and a potent portent on a rupture in the future. This trade would and should be the Knicks taking on the liability that comes with Brogdon's contract and health.

What the Knicks should be doing is looking to move up in the draft not use their lottery pick on an talented but damaged player that is quite honestly super high risk at this point and not talented enough to move the needle significantly. Now if we were talking about a top 15-20 player that has the same contract and same health concerns then sure that may be worth a look. But Brogdon isn't one of those.

[Adelheid]

Heard from some bucks fan from yonder that Brogdon has tunnel-ly vision.

[thebuzzardman]

Once again, outside of how the trade gets larger and more complicated assuming Brunson really wants the Knicks etc - I think he'd be a solid addition to the PG/Guard rotation.

Even if you are an IQ believer, Brunson isn't a bad idea. They can split PG and either one can get additional minutes at SG.

Like a lot of decisions the Knicks need to make, they generally involve several other cascading decisions, decisions that would exist even if this was an NBA 2K scenario and Knicks could make every move they or we want them to make, with ease.

Like, Knicks get Brunson, is Mitch in the S&T?
Would the Knicks not mind putting Mitch in the S&T because they want to open minutes at the 5 for Randle/Obi and more small ball?

If Brunson comes, do the Knicks trade D Rose and let Brunson/IQ run point?
If not, can IQ's minutes come at SG instead? Is that enough? What about Grimes?

If Grimes gets pushed to backup SF, since we'll assume Fournier is still here and we are totally ignoring Burks, would the Knicks really want to give those minutes to Grimes instead of Cam?

If Cam is pushed out of backup SF, are there ANY backup minutes behind Obi or Randle at PF?

Maybe the Knicks want to move on from Mitch Robinson but want Turner and magically get him. Even if they also shed Noel and would be willing to go "small" behind Turner with Randle, there might be a minutes crunch still for Cam or Grimes, even if Burks is gone, if Brunson winds up on the team with Turner but Rose isn't traded.


Another TL/DR - yes, the Knicks are going to get 4 roster spots opened up next year by Burks, Noel, Rose and Taj coming off the books,and possibly 5 with Cam, but they'll still have a draft pick and then another draft coming up.

We all have our young players we root for, we'd like to keep all of them, but they really can't. And sure, in theory it's easy to discount Burks and Noel, but harder to actually get rid of them. Fournier we can't assume is just "gone" in some trade and same for Randle, not matter how much he pisses off 3/4's of the fanbase.

Knicks have some navigating to do. Not sure this FO is up to the task. Probably not.
Knicks need some roster consolidation

He's not a bad idea as long as he doesn't become overpaid for what he can realistically do. If and when that happens, then he becomes a bad idea cause the Knicks simply cannot waste contracts like they've done the past 2+ decades.

Is Brunson that much better than IQ’s ceiling? Because if not, then we should continue to develop IQ. It’s not like signing Brunson gets us to the second round of the playoffs.

Is IQ going to play 48 mpg at PG?

[Chanel Bomber]

Trading for Brogdon is the ultimate treadmill move.

That's just staying in a state of ambivalence to justify not making a "hard" decision i.e. trading actual value for a difference-maker.

Brogdon is not a difference maker. He's a role player on a good team. And he'll turn 30 in December.

It's a horrible idea.

[8516knicks]

Once again, outside of how the trade gets larger and more complicated assuming Brunson really wants the Knicks etc - I think he'd be a solid addition to the PG/Guard rotation.

Even if you are an IQ believer, Brunson isn't a bad idea. They can split PG and either one can get additional minutes at SG.

Like a lot of decisions the Knicks need to make, they generally involve several other cascading decisions, decisions that would exist even if this was an NBA 2K scenario and Knicks could make every move they or we want them to make, with ease.

Like, Knicks get Brunson, is Mitch in the S&T?
Would the Knicks not mind putting Mitch in the S&T because they want to open minutes at the 5 for Randle/Obi and more small ball?

If Brunson comes, do the Knicks trade D Rose and let Brunson/IQ run point?
If not, can IQ's minutes come at SG instead? Is that enough? What about Grimes?

If Grimes gets pushed to backup SF, since we'll assume Fournier is still here and we are totally ignoring Burks, would the Knicks really want to give those minutes to Grimes instead of Cam?

If Cam is pushed out of backup SF, are there ANY backup minutes behind Obi or Randle at PF?

Maybe the Knicks want to move on from Mitch Robinson but want Turner and magically get him. Even if they also shed Noel and would be willing to go "small" behind Turner with Randle, there might be a minutes crunch still for Cam or Grimes, even if Burks is gone, if Brunson winds up on the team with Turner but Rose isn't traded.


Another TL/DR - yes, the Knicks are going to get 4 roster spots opened up next year by Burks, Noel, Rose and Taj coming off the books,and possibly 5 with Cam, but they'll still have a draft pick and then another draft coming up.

We all have our young players we root for, we'd like to keep all of them, but they really can't. And sure, in theory it's easy to discount Burks and Noel, but harder to actually get rid of them. Fournier we can't assume is just "gone" in some trade and same for Randle, not matter how much he pisses off 3/4's of the fanbase.

Knicks have some navigating to do. Not sure this FO is up to the task. Probably not.
Knicks need some roster consolidation

He's not a bad idea as long as he doesn't become overpaid for what he can realistically do. If and when that happens, then he becomes a bad idea cause the Knicks simply cannot waste contracts like they've done the past 2+ decades.

Is Brunson that much better than IQ’s ceiling? Because if not, then we should continue to develop IQ. It’s not like signing Brunson gets us to the second round of the playoffs.

Well, it kinda did for Dallas this year!

[K_ick_God]

Looks like a good obsession to have to my eyes.

[RHODEY]

Trading for Brogdon is the ultimate treadmill move.

That's just staying in a state of ambivalence to justify not making a "hard" decision i.e. trading actual value for a difference-maker.

Brogdon is not a difference maker. He's a role player on a good team. And he'll turn 30 in December.

It's a horrible idea.

Has be fallen of lately?..Because the Milwaukee Bucks version would be nearly ideal.... if it wasn't for his almost perpetual injuries....

[ibraheim718]

He's a wizard when he gets into the paint with a live dribble. Like a slower more prodding Steve Nash who can operate with his back to the basket.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

swongs. back to the Max.

[aq_ua]

Dang it! We're just gonna have to build through the draft. What a pity.

How many years is that going to take? If we're going that route, that means we're handing RJ 185M, we're going to pay Obi, and what to do about Randle?

I'm all about tanking properly, but the time for that was 5 years ago. Now that we've drafted this next group and some are about to get paid (also if we keep Mitch), we need hit on some picks in a BIG way. Franchise altering talent big way. This group of youth is not getting us anywhere without some serious talent added to the roster via the draft (if that's the route we went)

How many years have we spent not doing it and how did that work out?

I wish someone would write a succinct paper on the evolution of contracts amounts, trade rules, luxury tax and free agent rights to definitively prove the NBA has intentionally decreased the mobility of superstars via trade and free agency in favor of teams drafting and developing their own talent.

I do believe it is not a coincidence that building a team through the draft in the NBA is now the only way to truly build, and that is by purpose design by the NBA to ensure smaller market teams have as much competitive advantage as bigger markets.

[thebuzzardman]

He's a wizard when he gets into the paint with a live dribble. Like a slower more prodding Steve Nash who can operate with his back to the basket.

To me, this and the fact he's not bad at all off the ball make me feel he's worth 25 million a year.
Yeah, you give up height, and there could be switching issues on defense, but he's an engaged and aggressive defender at least.

But it's the above skill and the off ball stuff that would keep 25 million from being THJr 2.0 style contract.
He's a PG, which by definition if really a PG, is more valuable than a wing who isn't a great, where the wings scoring domination comes with elite or near elite passing.

I mean, would it have been highly preferrable for the Knicks to have cap space to sign him outright? Yes. Would it have been highly preferrable for his salary demands to hover closer to 18-20 million? Sure.

And this is written with the theoretical assumption Knicks have a chance to get him or could "make it happen" which we don't know and probably isn't likely.

But at 25 years old, I don't think he's a player fans would regret having.
Well, I'm sure somehow some will, if he doesn't magically turn into Chris Paul or something.

I get the arguments for going all youth, pure development, losing games and moving up in the draft.
There's also value in trying to build up the roster talent in a methodical, logical way.
Then again, it's the Knicks, so they always lack the executive talent to do the execution part correctly, assuming they even have that kind of plan.

But, optimistic buzzardman thinks adding him could be good, while hoping for the other moves that makes it even better, like not blowing the draft pick at 12/13, moving at least Burks off the team, exploring how to move Rose/Noel/Taj off the team, though moving the bigs is dependent on what the Knicks can do in the draft and with the MLE.