misleading awards, past and present

[falcolombardi]

someone in another thread commented that smart DPOY will give future fans the wrong impression that marcus was a outlier defensive guard for his era while someone like jrue will get underated by comparision

now i wont get into a discussiok about jrue vs smart defense but about awards who are or will be misleading (in your opinion)to fans

a good easy example is kobe late career all-D giving people the idea he was a lockdown defender well into his 30's

what other awards will be misleading to future fans who were not following the nba live at the time ?

[70sFan]

I think Alvin Robertson winning DPOY is probably the worst choice in the history of the award. Not that he was a poor defender, but he got that award strictly because of his steal numbers.

Camby winning this award over Duncan also ages extremely badly.

Most 6MOY awards that Crawford won were wrong.

[Texas Chuck]

I don't know if these qualify as awards, but those star offensive wings with multiple all-defensive teams they didn't have any business being on. Kobe is the most oft cited player, but Mike too. And him having a DPOY allows the myth makers to go crazy.

[70sFan]

I don't know if these qualify as awards, but those star offensive wings with multiple all-defensive teams they didn't have any business being on. Kobe is the most oft cited player, but Mike too. And him having a DPOY allows the myth makers to go crazy.

Doesn't have the same reputation, but Bird also got a lot of all-defensive team selection he likely didn't deserve.

[falcolombardi]

I don't know if these qualify as awards, but those star offensive wings with multiple all-defensive teams they didn't have any business being on. Kobe is the most oft cited player, but Mike too. And him having a DPOY allows the myth makers to go crazy.

jordan dpoy is a bit of a conundrum to me cause in one hand the bulls had a 3rd ranked offense and jordan seems like the better defender in that roster (i am unsure how good oakley was)

on the other that was still "only" a -2.5 defense so how to value their 3rd place rank is tricky, defenskve anchors of much better defenses miss on the dpoy in the regular (09 james didnt win, and was probably the best defender in a -5.5 defense for example)

as far as i am aware that is the second worse defense to win a dpoy (after alvin robertson who was in a below average spurs defense) and i dont think jordan was the kind of ultra outlier hakeem-esque defender whou would deserve a dpoy with a merely good defense result

was it undeserved? i feel unqualified to judge based on a few games watched, but at the same time it seems unlikely to me that voters didnt reward the most visually impressive/steal collecting perimeter player rather thsn the actual most valuable defender

80's are surprisingly perimeter oriented as far as dpoy go even though that was a much more center dependant defense era than now which puts almost all those perimeter dpoy's automatically in question for me

was jordan really having impact remotely comparable to hakeem or eaton? is hard to believe to be honest

[Cavsfansince84]

jordan dpoy is a bit of a conundrum to me cause in one hand the bulls had a 3rd ranked offense and jordan seems like the better defender in that roster (i am unsure how good oakley was)

on the other that was still "only" a -2.5 defense so how to value their 3rd place rank is tricky, defenskve anchors of much better defenses miss on the dpoy in the regular (09 james didnt win, and was probably the best defender in a -5.5 defense for example)

as far as i am aware that is the second worse defense to win a dpoy (after alvin robertson who was in a below average spurs defense) and i dont think jordan was the kind of ultra outlier hakeem-esque defender whou would deserve a dpoy with a merely good defense result

was it undeserved? i feel unqualified to judge based on a few games watched, but at the same time it seems unlikely to me that voters didnt reward the most visually impressive/steal collecting perimeter player rather thsn the actual most valuable defender

80's are surprisingly perimeter oriented as far as dpoy go even though that was a much more center dependant defense era than now which puts almost all those perimeter dpoy's automatically in question for me

was jordan really having impact remotely comparable to hakeem or eaton? is hard to believe to be honest

My opinion is that many of those voters simply didn't take the award that seriously and weren't sure how to vote for it. They also lacked any great stats for calculating team defense and defensive impact outside of blocks and steals. So I think they just went willy nilly a lot of those years and when Eaton started breaking bpg records it was easy for them to give them to him. Same as when Robertson was the first guy to get 300 steals in a season. They were just voting for guys with good defensive reputations.

[Doctor MJ]

someone in another thread commented that smart DPOY will give future fans the wrong impression that marcus was a outlier defensive guard for his era while someone like jrue will get underated by comparision

now i wont get into a discussiok about jrue vs smart defense but about awards who are or will be misleading (in your opinion)to fans

a good easy example is kobe late career all-D giving people the idea he was a lockdown defender well into his 30's

what other awards will be misleading to future fans who were not following the nba live at the time ?

Good thread, and I'll echo the DPOY and All-D mentions in general. That's generally where we see the most egregious errors and the most unquestioning fan analysis as the decades go by.

Beyond that, Finals MVP is the big award that comes to mind - and I'd say it's got a lot to do with the small sample size.

The most egregious one in history is probably always going to be Andre Iguodala's, and I say that as a guy who holds Iggy in higher esteem than probably most of the guys who actually voted for him for Finals MVP. It was a clear case, imho, of voters not feeling comfortable voting for either Curry or LeBron, and bizarrely felt more comfortable giving their vote to someone clearly nowhere near as good as either of the team's two stars.

While I personally would have voted Curry, I think what the voters really felt a pull to do was give it to LeBron but felt they couldn't because his team lost, and I wish they'd have just gone with it and voted LeBron. To me it's exasperating that the first Finals MVP went to a guy on the losing team but now somehow we feel so strongly it must go to the winner that we ended with a guy who had no argument as a Top 2 player in that series as the Finals MVP.

I'll also give a shout out to Manu Ginobili who I think should have won Finals MVP in 2005, and frankly was the MVP of many of the Spurs series over the years.

Thinking deeper into the past and expanding things: The MVPs (RS & Finals) that Willis Reed got while Walt Frazier got nothing of the sort I think really don't tell a fair picture of the relative importance of those two guys at all.

[parsnips33]

From an obvious Warriors fan bias perspective:

Draymond only having won 1 DPOY is a little strange, but Gobert and Kawhi certainly earned what they got

I think Iguodala not having one a single 6MOY despite being probably the most consequential sixth man since Manu is a shame

[wojoaderge]

Wes Unseld, 1978 Finals MVP
Less egregious - Darrell Griffith, 1981 ROY

[penbeast0]

Wes Unseld, 1978 Finals MVP
Less egregious - Darrell Griffith, 1981 ROY

Who do you give these to instead? Hayes? Kelvin Ransey? (The main other choices in contemporary voters minds)

[prolific passer]

I know Crawford should have at least 2 less 6th man of the year awards. One should have went to Taj and another to Kanter because of what they were doing for their teams other than scoring off the bench.

[70sFan]

Wes Unseld, 1978 Finals MVP
Less egregious - Darrell Griffith, 1981 ROY

Who do you give these to instead? Hayes? Kelvin Ransey? (The main other choices in contemporary voters minds)

Haven't watched this series in years, but why not Dandridge?

[sp6r=underrated]

Beyond that, Finals MVP is the big award that comes to mind - and I'd say it's got a lot to do with the small sample size.

The most egregious one in history is probably always going to be Andre Iguodala's, and I say that as a guy who holds Iggy in higher esteem than probably most of the guys who actually voted for him for Finals MVP. It was a clear case, imho, of voters not feeling comfortable voting for either Curry or LeBron, and bizarrely felt more comfortable giving their vote to someone clearly nowhere near as good as either of the team's two stars.

Finals MVP is the worst award in the NBA. It should be converted to a playoff MVP for several reasons.
1. The Finals series isn't necessarily the most important series.
2. Even in years where it is the most important series, it rarely dwarfs the cumulative importance of the first 3 rounds.
3. 1987 Lakers is the rare example of a team that had a finals that's importance dwarfed the cumulative importance of the first 3 rounds.
4. Even when that is the case the sample size and match-up nature of a single series makes player evaluation dubious.

Playoff MVP captures at least 20 games except in rare dominant runs.

But if we're keeping it voters should be okay with voting for members of the losing teams. This ain't tennis. Often times the most valuable player is on the losing team

[penbeast0]

Wes Unseld, 1978 Finals MVP
Less egregious - Darrell Griffith, 1981 ROY

Who do you give these to instead? Hayes? Kelvin Ransey? (The main other choices in contemporary voters minds)

Haven't watched this series in years, but why not Dandridge?

Could go with Dandridge (or Larry Smith for the ROY), but only listed the main talked about other choice.

Dandridge v. Hayes, Hayes was the more prolific (barely) and efficient scorer though Dandridge had been the more efficient scorer all year, Hayes was also probably the more influential defender with both Gus and DJ being attack the basket guys. Dandridge was one of my favorites on that team, but Hayes was probably the other guy most people were thinking of.

[cupcakesnake]

- Kobe winning 12x all-defense make him seem like the generational guard, rather than a point of attack defensive specialist who only played that role for a handful of seasons. I could be talked into Kobe deserving 3-4 of the early ones, but in general his continued presence on those teams undermined the award, specifically for guards.

- Jamal Crawford's 3x 6MOY making him look like the all-time great bench player, despite playing in the same generation as Manu Ginobili. Same goes for Lou Williams winning them instead of Andre Iguodala. I think Lou Will deserved 1 (2018), Crawford deserved zero, Manu deserved 3 (2008, 2010, 2014) and Iggy deserved 2 (2016, 2017).

- FMVP for Cedric Maxwell, Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Paul Pierce, Andre Iguodala. I like most of these players and was happy for them when they won, but the more distance I have, the more annoying it feels that the team's more generational players were deprived of this legacy award. Should have been Bird, Manu (or Duncan), Ben Wallace, KG, Steph. Playoff MVP would tell us a better story than Finals MVP, where a random storyline or scoring binge can sneak the award away from an important all-time great.

- Camby over Duncan for DPOY. One of the greatest defenders ever, and this was the year it was easiest to get him the award. Now we just have Marcus Camby on a list. I would have given 1 of Ben Wallace's to Duncan and Ron Artests to Wallace.

[70sFan]

Who do you give these to instead? Hayes? Kelvin Ransey? (The main other choices in contemporary voters minds)

Haven't watched this series in years, but why not Dandridge?

Could go with Dandridge (or Larry Smith for the ROY), but only listed the main talked about other choice.

Dandridge v. Hayes, Hayes was the more prolific (barely) and efficient scorer though Dandridge had been the more efficient scorer all year, Hayes was also probably the more influential defender with both Gus and DJ being attack the basket guys. Dandridge was one of my favorites on that team, but Hayes was probably the other guy most people were thinking of.

Of course I meant someone else than Big E, we all know that Elvin wasn't liked to say the least.

[penbeast0]

Haven't watched this series in years, but why not Dandridge?

Of course I meant someone else than Big E, we all know that Elvin wasn't liked to say the least.

That may be a reason Unseld won over Hayes. I think Unseld or Hayes over Dandridge may also be because the core was going to finals before Dandridge and not winning recognition.

[cupcakesnake]

I don't know if these qualify as awards, but those star offensive wings with multiple all-defensive teams they didn't have any business being on. Kobe is the most oft cited player, but Mike too. And him having a DPOY allows the myth makers to go crazy.

Doesn't have the same reputation, but Bird also got a lot of all-defensive team selection he likely didn't deserve.

I'm not going to make the case for Bird deserving for any of his 3 all-defense selections. I do want to point out that in terms of narrative, Bird's selections are the opposite of Kobe and MJ's. Kobe and MJ were good defenders who got way more credit than they deserved, and the broader fan base thinks of them as all-time perimeter defenders. Bird was a good defender (strangely poor post defender, but really great hands and timing allowed him to be a tenacious help defender) who casual fans assume was bad on defense because he has a reputation for being slow and unathletic. So in this case, I think those selections are more helpful than harmful in terms of understanding who Bird was as a player. While the MJ/Kobe ones create a fiction. People see the Bird one's and think "oh maybe he was better on defense than I assumed!" where they see the MJ/Kobe ones and think "greatest perimeter defenders of all-time?"

Bird made all-defense second team 3 times, and I hadn't really questioned them much tbh. I'm sure if someone rattled off a list of players who Bird made it over, I might see the light.

[70sFan]

I don't know if these qualify as awards, but those star offensive wings with multiple all-defensive teams they didn't have any business being on. Kobe is the most oft cited player, but Mike too. And him having a DPOY allows the myth makers to go crazy.

Doesn't have the same reputation, but Bird also got a lot of all-defensive team selection he likely didn't deserve.

I'm not going to make the case for Bird deserving for any of his 3 all-defense selections. I do want to point out that in terms of narrative, Bird's selections are the opposite of Kobe and MJ's. Kobe and MJ were good defenders who got way more credit than they deserved, and the broader fan base thinks of them as all-time perimeter defenders. Bird was a good defender (strangely poor post defender, but really great hands and timing allowed him to be a tenacious help defender) who casual fans assume was bad on defense because he has a reputation for being slow and unathletic. So in this case, I think those selections are more helpful than harmful in terms of understanding who Bird was as a player. While the MJ/Kobe ones create a fiction. People see the Bird one's and think "oh maybe he was better on defense than I assumed!" where they see the MJ/Kobe ones and think "greatest perimeter defenders of all-time?"

Bird made all-defense second team 3 times, and I hadn't really questioned them much tbh. I'm sure if someone rattled off a list of players who Bird made it over, I might see the light.

Yeah, it probably makes good things for Bird's reputation. I still think he's overrated by voters though, don't see him as all-defensive worthy even at his best.

[falcolombardi]

i think we all could agree that being a great offensive player makes your defense more recognized and valued as long as you dont get a defensive sieve reputation (which is hard to shake off)?

like how many people know about nate mcmillan defense compared to gary payton defense?

would the glove have won a dpoy if he was a defensive specialist with little offense?