Better peak: Sidney Moncrief vs Jimmy Butler

[70sFan]

Who would you take in terms of peak and why?

[SickMother]

I'll take Sidney for two reasons, a little more efficient scoring the ball with seasonal TS+ marks of 115, 113 and 112 (x2), compared to a career high of 109 for Jimmy.

The other thing that puts Moncrief over the top for me is that Butler has a little more volatile/mercurial disposition, which on the one hand gives him his edge, but on the other hand has already blown up on three organizations now.

[Cavsfansince84]

I'd have to give it to Jimmy on the strength of his finals run. Moncrief only played in two conf finals and played badly in both.

[kcktiny]

If you consider Butler a SG, and with both Moncrief and Butler you factor in:

- scoring
- scoring efficiency
- offensive/defensive rebounding
- steals/forcing turnovers
- man/shot defense

Then Moncrief and Butler are likely the two best all-around SGs peak-wise (say a 5-6 year stretch) next to Michael Jordan the past 4+ decades.

Gervin, Wade, K.Bryant, a couple others may arguably be better offensively, Alvin Robertson and perhaps prime Dennis Johnson better defensively, but Moncrief/Butler (and maybe Drexler) are imho the next best to Jordan.

[RCM88x]

I think Butler is just a way better playmaker/passer than Sid ever was and that puts him over the top here. Feel he's proved to have a much higher ceiling in the playoffs too, helped a lot due to his superior size and athleticism to Sid.

Sid's not as much of a lunatic though so I can see that being more appealing when building a team but that dynamic feels a bit outside this comparison of peak strict on court impact.

[falcolombardi]

I think Butler is just a way better playmaker/passer than Sid ever was and that puts him over the top here. Feel he's proved to have a much higher ceiling in the playoffs too, helped a lot due to his superior size and athleticism to Sid.

Sid's not as much of a lunatic though so I can see that being more appealing when building a team but that dynamic feels a bit outside this comparison of peak strict on court impact.

i have heard moncrief described as one of the absolute greatest wing defenders ever

how much of an edge woild he have over butler defensively? (butler is a strong defender but i have never tought of him on that kind of terms)

[RCM88x]

I think Butler is just a way better playmaker/passer than Sid ever was and that puts him over the top here. Feel he's proved to have a much higher ceiling in the playoffs too, helped a lot due to his superior size and athleticism to Sid.

Sid's not as much of a lunatic though so I can see that being more appealing when building a team but that dynamic feels a bit outside this comparison of peak strict on court impact.

i have heard moncrief described as one of the absolute greatest wing defenders ever

how much of an edge woild he have over butler defensively? (butler is a strong defender but i have never tought of him on that kind of terms)

I don't think that's accurate, but he's certainly elite. Still, I'll take the ultra switchable wing over the elite guard every time, just so much more value there.

[HeartBreakKid]

Hm...this season is looking pretty complete for Jimmy. I might lean toward him.

If we exclude this season than probably Sidney by a bit. Jimmy doesn't really have the scoring volume for me to see him as clearly better than Sidney. Sidney lacks volume, so without that advantage I don't see any separation in Jimmy's favor.

[HeartBreakKid]

I'll take Sidney for two reasons, a little more efficient scoring the ball with seasonal TS+ marks of 115, 113 and 112 (x2), compared to a career high of 109 for Jimmy.

The other thing that puts Moncrief over the top for me is that Butler has a little more volatile/mercurial disposition, which on the one hand gives him his edge, but on the other hand has already blown up on three organizations now.

I don't see how Jimmy Butler showing his disdain over his teammates for being lazy and playing poorly is that much of a con. Both teams he ended up being lotto teams...he was absolutely right, and his presence there at best just meant they were 8th seeds - it seems rather irrelevant


The third one team, which I assume you mean is Philly is lazily thinking that if a player leaves it must be because of a toxic situation. The Sixers didn't want to give Jimmy Butler a max contract because they paid 3 other all-stars who are younger than him. Jimmy Butler did not blow up on the Sixers. Where is there evidence that Jimmy Butler and Joel Embiid disliked each other, if anything I've only seen the opposite.

[70sFan]

I think Butler is just a way better playmaker/passer than Sid ever was and that puts him over the top here. Feel he's proved to have a much higher ceiling in the playoffs too, helped a lot due to his superior size and athleticism to Sid.

Sid's not as much of a lunatic though so I can see that being more appealing when building a team but that dynamic feels a bit outside this comparison of peak strict on court impact.

Butler's size advantage is definitely a factor, but I don't see him as more athletic player. Squid was crazy athletic, one of the most athletic guard I have ever seen.

[Rich Michmond]

I'd have to give it to Jimmy on the strength of his finals run. Moncrief only played in two conf finals and played badly in both.

He actually played in three conference finals (83, 84, 86).

[JordansBulls]

Well Jimmy this year is showing how good he is, the bubble thing is something I can't get with since no fans.

[Colbinii]

Well Jimmy this year is showing how good he is, the bubble thing is something I can't get with since no fans.

Yeah the no fans things hurt teams like the Lakers who would have had HCA and helped teams like the Heat who finished 5th.

[falcolombardi]

is butler really playing worse than in the bubble? people remember his crazy games against lebron but overall he played much closer to what he is doing now

the finals was an outlier series within an already great playoffs run

[trex_8063]

I'd have to give the edge to Jimmy: better passer/playmaker by the numbers and by my limited eye [limited on Moncrief, not Jimmy], and also his scoring seems slightly more playoff resilient.

It's a decent comparison, though. Scottie Pippen is the other comp I see as appropriate for Butler.

[migya]

Moncrief was the Olajuwon of guards. Had hos prime been ten years he'd be a top 50 player.