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Deni Avdija

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Do you like this pick?

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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1181 » by doclinkin » Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:33 pm

dckingsfan wrote:Shouldn't the question be - given where Deni is - where do we think he will go in the next two years?

1) Will he improve his ball handling to be a true secondary initiator of the offense?
2) Will he improve his shooting to help stretch the defense?
3) Will he get better at finishing?

4) Will he continue to improve as a defender reducing the silly fouls and getting frustrated?

And that against the other forwards on the team.


I think of primary importance for Deni is your 2) & 3). I've been thinking about team building concepts since we landed Porzingis. I'll probably drop a few paragraphs in the Line-ups and Strategy thread, but basically it is this. Wes has been playing some concepts that I have daydreamed for the team since the Eddie F Jordan days. Chiefly, with a 7'3" face-up player he can run some high post center sets where the Big man parks himself above the FT line and directs the action from there.

The John Wooden UCLA offense, the Princeton Offense, the GSW Stef/Draymond championships, these all work well with a ranged Big who passes well. With Porzingis in the high post opponents have to follow the Big up top or else he will shoot over them. Hopefully his outside shot recovers, but even without that his midrange shot has been reliable this past stretch. Since he needn't put the ball on the floor, shorter players can't guard him. This opens the middle for players to cut backdoor, or if the defenders close that off, it frees up outside players for open shots. The team then relies on player movement and heads-up reaction time to create openings. You want smart players who make decisions on the fly. You don't even really need a traditional PG to dominate the ball and get people open. Short passes and player motion reduce the need for heavy dribbling.

Deni fits as the guy who makes smart passes and smart movement off the ball. He just has no confidence in his finishing ability so even if he makes a hard cut to receive a pass he tends to relay it to the next guy. It's a smart play, almost any other "next guy" on the team is more efficient at scoring. Still, if Deni had any sort of finishing move then that next guy would be more likely to have a wide open shot. He doesn't have to dunk in traffic though. A floater, a Tim Duncan bank shot, a jump hook, all of these are moves that avoid the defense. That 'old man game' stuff was developed back when teams had physical enforcers on defense, like hockey goons. Euro teams also tend to play physical defense (especially on their home court) and attackers rely on this sort of thing more than airwalking athleticism. It should look familiar to Deni.

So. A finishing move. Pick one, work it until it is unstoppable, then the rest of your game can expand from there. That and the ability to hit a wide open jumpshot from outside will keep teams honest.

I see Deni actually being able to play a Small Ball center in this sort of offense. I'd love him to watch Bill Walton's play from 12 feet and out to see pretty much all of the skills mentioned above. I'm not old enough to have seen Walton play back then, but there are enough videos of full games to study. Or hell, bring in Big Red to teach a session. Really many of the Bigs from that era had a bag of tricks to score with. Pick one.

I'm not too worried about 1) and 4) Deni has enough of a handle to blow past Bigs who guard him outside. We have seen footage of him doing it in Israel. He has enough athleticism to throw windmill dunks in warm-ups. He's simply smart enough to know against NBA talent he does not have the athletic advantage. He does have the advantage of instinct and early experience, being raised by a pro baller and having played against pros since he was 16 years old. On defense, he is ahead of the game. All young players foul and even when they start to figure it out they have to re-adjust to the scouting against them. Experience lets you anticipate, and use the scouting report yourself.

If he does develop those skills though, Deni will be versatile enough to not have to worry about competition with the other forwards, not when he can play next to them and make them look better.

The player that Kyle Kuzma thinks he is is the exact sort of player you want in these sets (outside shooter, interior finisher, offensive rebounder, smart cutter, enough of a handle to work opponent Bigs). Corey Kispert is an instant fit. The old version of Brad Beal that played well without the ball, inside and out. Any player we've got who can make smart reads and react quickly is a fit next to a tall savvy passer in a high post offense. Deni will be fine. One finishing move, and work that open 3, and it's a good start.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1182 » by Dolevi » Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:12 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
Dolevi wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:That is pretty much where I am at... Deni improved but not to the level that I would have hoped.

Seems like every year one of our offseason "hopes" is that one of the youngsters breaks through. Given that we are a bad team, I would hope we would have plenty of players with the potential.

Code: Select all

Isaiah Todd      20
Deni Avdija      21
Vernon Carey     21
Corey Kispert    23
Daniel Gafford   23
Rui Hachimura    24


I have no hope for Todd or Carey and Hachimura is getting to the end of the period where potentially will have a large jump. So, of course we are hoping for Deni to be the one to make the jump.

#sowizards

Okay but you need as a team to give him the ball to run plays not just when it's garbage. Maybe if KCP Neto and Ish will stop with their **** game and you will have more ball movement in the team, he can make the jump. You can't ignore the situation and the USG%. Deni needs not just to be given a lot of minutes (25-30+ MPG), but also needed to be used right in offense, that's something else which we haven't seen yet when we're competitive. He won't make any jump unless his USG% will go up (together with P&R actions as a Ball Handler). We all agree that 3&D isn't his type of game, so if you wanna see what he's capable of, you need at least to try and give him a real chance. His role gotta get bigger.. Let's see what will happen next season, how the rotation will be, the players, the roles. Let's see.

You make good points, but...

Deni had lots of shot opportunities that he didn't convert both at the three point line and little bunnies. He made some progress with his shot but not a jump.

And his usage did go up to 16% from 12% and that led to a higher assist/TO ratio - good for him but his handles limited his effectiveness as a shot creator.

His defense was really solid at the beginning of the year but as the year progressed and as he put more effort into the offensive side of the ball (and was scouted on D) his effectiveness dropped.

Yes, his role need to change, but... he can improve substantially even without the role change and he needs to do so in a big way.

I think you mentioned a good point there. If there's something else besides mental stuff / shooting / scoring & finishing abilities and left hand, is dribbling also. Yet i still think that even if he's not good enough right now, the potential is completely there so it's legitimate and important to run more plays for him, give him the ball more, not just when it's garbage time.

Eventually the chances he will get better through games and experience are not less higher than just working in the summer a lot. Time to practice things under pressure is really crucial in learning skills (whatever it will be).
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1183 » by dckingsfan » Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:25 pm

Dolevi wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
Dolevi wrote:Okay but you need as a team to give him the ball to run plays not just when it's garbage. Maybe if KCP Neto and Ish will stop with their **** game and you will have more ball movement in the team, he can make the jump. You can't ignore the situation and the USG%. Deni needs not just to be given a lot of minutes (25-30+ MPG), but also needed to be used right in offense, that's something else which we haven't seen yet when we're competitive. He won't make any jump unless his USG% will go up (together with P&R actions as a Ball Handler). We all agree that 3&D isn't his type of game, so if you wanna see what he's capable of, you need at least to try and give him a real chance. His role gotta get bigger.. Let's see what will happen next season, how the rotation will be, the players, the roles. Let's see.

You make good points, but...

Deni had lots of shot opportunities that he didn't convert both at the three point line and little bunnies. He made some progress with his shot but not a jump.

And his usage did go up to 16% from 12% and that led to a higher assist/TO ratio - good for him but his handles limited his effectiveness as a shot creator.

His defense was really solid at the beginning of the year but as the year progressed and as he put more effort into the offensive side of the ball (and was scouted on D) his effectiveness dropped.

Yes, his role need to change, but... he can improve substantially even without the role change and he needs to do so in a big way.

I think you mentioned a good point there. If there's something else besides mental stuff / shooting / scoring & finishing abilities and left hand, is dribbling also. Yet i still think that even if he's not good enough right now, the potential is completely there so it's legitimate and important to run more plays for him, give him the ball more, not just when it's garbage time.

Eventually the chances he will get better through games and experience are not less higher than just working in the summer a lot. Time to practice things under pressure is really crucial in learning skills (whatever it will be).

Just to reinforce this - Deni spent last summer recovering from an injury and yet still improved.

I am very optimistic that he improves more this off-season than last off season. Another way to say that - I think his improvement statistically will double year over year. I'll post my prediction on that later.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1184 » by dckingsfan » Sat Apr 23, 2022 5:31 pm

My prediction for Deni's numbers next year baring injury. I don't think he will get substantially more minutes and I think that Wes will continue to bring him off the bench regardless of how he plays unless Kuz is moved.

Code: Select all

Age   MP     TS%     3P%     FT%     AST%   TOV%   USG%   DRB%   STL%   BLK%   WS/48   VORP
20    1257   0.515   0.315   0.644    6.3    9.0   12.0   20.2   1.2    1.0    0.046   -0.4
21    1984   0.536   0.317   0.757   11.8   12.0   16.3   20.5   1.5    1.9    0.058    0.1
22    2000   0.560   0.360   0.800   16.0   13.0   18.0   20.5   1.7    2.2    0.100    1.2
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1185 » by nate33 » Sat Apr 23, 2022 5:43 pm

dckingsfan wrote:Just to reinforce this - Deni spent last summer recovering from an injury and yet still improved.

This is a really good point. I forgot about that.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1186 » by dckingsfan » Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:52 pm

“The fatigue of playing 82 games in a season definitely affected me and there were times when I had no energy,” noted Avdija. “It was a bit tough, but that’s part of sports...”


and

“There are a lot of things which I can improve. I am aware of that and I am not naive and some of them I will keep to myself. I watch videos of all of my games to see how the team plays and what my role will be for the next season. I believe that many people know what I need to work on in my game play and that I will be able to do things even better as time goes on.”


https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/sports/article-705183
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1187 » by Dolevi » Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:22 am

https://www.sport5.co.il/articles.aspx?FolderID=8166&docID=400269

Deni's interview with some Israeli media a few days ago.
He was today at the game of Maccabi against Real also.

" My confidence as a player has improved, " he continued in terms of personal ability. " The organization pushes me to show the things I know I can. I'm more mature. "

The goal is to get into the playoffs together with the Wizards: " Getting into the playoffs is never easy but we will have a good team that can do beautiful things. I for my part will continue on my way and I believe I can go as far as possible. "

About his second season he said: " I went through a lot of things, it was not easy and there was also the Corona period that it was something different, no one could visit. In the second year you already understand your development, you feel you have experience both in the game and off the field. I felt I was developing and I felt relieved off the field, there was an improvement on the field. "

" In the end, basketball is basketball, " he said, referring to the differences between the NBA and Europe. " Not everything is rosy, not everything goes smoothly, there were a lot of difficulties along the way and there were moments when I did not play, I was in a crisis. I lived every day on time, it is important to continue to improve. "
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1188 » by CntOutSmrtCrazy » Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:45 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
“The fatigue of playing 82 games in a season definitely affected me and there were times when I had no energy,” noted Avdija. “It was a bit tough, but that’s part of sports...”


and

“There are a lot of things which I can improve. I am aware of that and I am not naive and some of them I will keep to myself. I watch videos of all of my games to see how the team plays and what my role will be for the next season. I believe that many people know what I need to work on in my game play and that I will be able to do things even better as time goes on.”


https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/sports/article-705183


Got to be pleased with the keen level of self-awareness. I know players say this, that, and the other thing all the time, but sometimes there's some good detail in the nuance.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1189 » by Jay81 » Mon May 9, 2022 5:07 am

miller31time wrote:Would have loved Haliburton with the pick. When was the last time we had a rock-solid combo guard off the bench? Antonio Daniels? Deni just seems redundant with another no-defense forward in Rui.

I hope I eat my words. We’ll see.
Of course
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1190 » by Jay81 » Mon May 9, 2022 5:07 am

long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:
miller31time wrote:Would have loved Haliburton with the pick. When was the last time we had a rock-solid combo guard off the bench? Antonio Daniels? Deni just seems redundant with another no-defense forward in Rui.

I hope I eat my words. We’ll see.


I wanted Halliburton.

Denji could be a steal. Could be completely mediocre
Me too
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1191 » by Jay81 » Mon May 9, 2022 5:08 am

Meliorus wrote:He can't shoot, his advanced stats are garbage, his free throw percentage is garbage. There's a reason why he slipped, he's not an NBA player.

Back to back drafts with forwards who can't shoot or defend. Good stuff Tommy.
Nailed it
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1192 » by badinage » Mon May 9, 2022 6:28 am

At best, he lightly tapped the head of the hammer once or twice.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1193 » by nate33 » Mon May 9, 2022 1:04 pm

Jay81 wrote:
Meliorus wrote:He can't shoot, his advanced stats are garbage, his free throw percentage is garbage. There's a reason why he slipped, he's not an NBA player.

Back to back drafts with forwards who can't shoot or defend. Good stuff Tommy.
Nailed it

Um. No. Pretty much everything in this assessment has proven to be incorrect.

Avdija's advanced stats rate him as one of the better players on the roster. He ranks third by RAPTOR behind only Porzingis and Beal. He ranks 6th by EPM, behind Porzingis, Beal, Gafford, KCP and just barely behind Kuzma.

And his FT% improved from .588 in Euroball, to .644 his rookie year, to .757 this year. (He actually shot 80% over the final 72 games of the season after a rough 12-22 start in his first 9 games.)

And Avdija is obviously a very good defender. The only thing that hasn't come around is his 3-point shooting.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1194 » by FAH1223 » Mon May 9, 2022 3:48 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1195 » by nate33 » Mon May 9, 2022 4:07 pm

FAH1223 wrote:
Read on Twitter

I don't understand what the "Oz" guy means by lack of dip. Deni's form looks pretty good to me. I like that he is practicing a quick release.

His improvement in FT shooting is a good sign that he can improve his 3-ball as well. He finally has a healthy offseason to work on it.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1196 » by closg00 » Mon May 9, 2022 4:20 pm

nate33 wrote:
Jay81 wrote:
Meliorus wrote:He can't shoot, his advanced stats are garbage, his free throw percentage is garbage. There's a reason why he slipped, he's not an NBA player.

Back to back drafts with forwards who can't shoot or defend. Good stuff Tommy.
Nailed it

Um. No. Pretty much everything in this assessment has proven to be incorrect.

Avdija's advanced stats rate him as one of the better players on the roster. He ranks third by RAPTOR behind only Porzingis and Beal. He ranks 6th by EPM, behind Porzingis, Beal, Gafford, KCP and just barely behind Kuzma.

And his FT% improved from .588 in Euroball, to .644 his rookie year, to .757 this year. (He actually shot 80% over the final 72 games of the season after a rough 12-22 start in his first 9 games.)

And Avdija is obviously a very good defender. The only thing that hasn't come around is his 3-point shooting.


A major problem I see is his unwillingness to attempt shots that most small forwards would take, he is often too deferential, passing the ball when he should be launching shots in confidence. Now, towards the end of the season it appears that he began taking more of those shots instead of passing them up...
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1197 » by dobrojim » Mon May 9, 2022 4:57 pm

The shooting drill was encouraging but of course no one is guarding him, which IS something
that happens if briefly in an NBA game. One thing I wonder about the drill is whether it would
be helpful to intentionally throw less than perfect (right to his shooting pocket) passes.
To a considerable degree, the likelihood of a make varies considerably with where the shooter
catches the pass. So you either need to forego shots off bad passes or work at making
those shots.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1198 » by nate33 » Mon May 9, 2022 5:22 pm

dobrojim wrote:The shooting drill was encouraging but of course no one is guarding him, which IS something
that happens if briefly in an NBA game. One thing I wonder about the drill is whether it would
be helpful to intentionally throw less than perfect (right to his shooting pocket) passes.
To a considerable degree, the likelihood of a make varies considerably with where the shooter
catches the pass. So you either need to forego shots off bad passes or work at making
those shots.

I agree about the pocket passes. I think the drill accounts for no one guarding him because Avdija is clearly focusing on releasing quickly.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1199 » by closg00 » Mon May 9, 2022 5:29 pm

dobrojim wrote:The shooting drill was encouraging but of course no one is guarding him, which IS something
that happens if briefly in an NBA game. One thing I wonder about the drill is whether it would
be helpful to intentionally throw less than perfect (right to his shooting pocket) passes.

To a considerable degree, the likelihood of a make varies considerably with where the shooter
catches the pass. So you either need to forego shots off bad passes or work at making
those shots.


My exact thought, create some real-life shooting situations there assistant, perhaps they were just working on his form/mechanics
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#1200 » by doclinkin » Mon May 9, 2022 5:50 pm

closg00 wrote:
dobrojim wrote:The shooting drill was encouraging but of course no one is guarding him, which IS something
that happens if briefly in an NBA game. One thing I wonder about the drill is whether it would
be helpful to intentionally throw less than perfect (right to his shooting pocket) passes.

To a considerable degree, the likelihood of a make varies considerably with where the shooter
catches the pass. So you either need to forego shots off bad passes or work at making
those shots.


My exact thought, create some real-life shooting situations there assistant, perhaps they were just working on his form/mechanics


Right, you have to do it right and see some success before you can apply the approach to more dynamic situations. The best shooters can square up and stabilize even mid-air, but Deni is not that guy. If he can take and make a standstill unguarded 3 he still has utility. I personally want to see him working on core strength and his hands so that he is unafraid to take a hit on the interior and can develop a finishing move other than passing to the big guy. He hits the windmill dunk in warm-ups, let's see that aggression in game.

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