Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again)

[Raps in 4]

Its a regular season award, not a playoff award. Weird to see some people litigate the award using highlights/lowlights from the playoffs.

Jokic had a great season and he really deserved it.

Even if it was a playoff award:

Jokic: 31/13/6 on 64% TS against the Warriors, who have 4 all-stars on their roster and are favourites to come out of the West.

Embiid: 25/11/2 on 62% TS against the Raptors who were expected to miss the playoffs this year, and who had injuries to 3/5 starters.

[soxfan2003]

He is right. Jokic has anger management issues and can't be on the floor during key defensive plays, but hey advanced stats say he's an elite defender.

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Yeah, can't be on the floor at the end of close games because of his defense....

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Even from the bench he called the play, and helped his team defense. Great basketball mind. That is why a lot of ex-players, media guys and fans can't appreciate him, you have to have basketball IQ above average to recognize a genious.

Jokic being a big white eastern European/Serbian playing in a city not really known for basketball hurts him among his NBA peers that have a lot of black Americans within the group. Probably less than 10% of black and white American NBA players could identify Serbia on a map despite Serbia having an excellent basketball tradition.

If Jokic played exactly the same way and was a white center that had gone to lets say UCLA, Kentucky or UNC after growing up in America and had a similar season for the Knicks/Heat after previously being a lottery pick, any controversy around his candidacy would be dramatically reduced. He would be thought of as a "healthy Bill Walton" even if they were somewhat different.

Bird got a lot of respect fairly instantaneously in the NBA since he had the college credentials having taking a mid major to the title game when the NCAA was a higher caliber of ball than it is now with all of the 1 year college players.

Coming out of nowhere Americans can identify after being a 2nd round pick and having a different sort of game hurts him.

I don't think Nash deserved more than 1 MVP. I wouldn't have given an MVP to Iverson or Rose either but Jokic deserves his 2 MVPs. With all of the games players are missing nowadays, MVP does not mean you are the best player in the game. Who the real best player in the game today is more debatable right now.

But what fans and NBA players alike need to understand, 4-5 NBA MVPS in this era if Jokic ever gets that amount is simple not the same as a player winning that many before 2010. When top players are missing so many games often with minor injuries to rest, the award does mean a little bit less IMO.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

This board definitely has a problem discussing race, it is reflective of society as well.

If you want to discuss race and it’s impact on the league, you’re totally free to discuss it. And I’m sure many will entertain it, myself included. But the way you brought race into this particular discussion has no substance

For the media to go out of it's way with a podcast blitz, through mostly white created Zach Lowe cronies about how it was a catastrophe that Jokic wasn't leading the MVP straw poll midseason was despicable. Literally every single podcast that I listened to, had something about how Jokic wasn't getting his due credit. They couldn't stand that their precious advanced stats weren't being lauded.

Let's also talk about precedent. When was the last time that an NBA MVP, did worse record wise but still won the MVP? In a season where there was another candidate who had a better record, and hadn't won the MVP, did the media really have to go out of their way to say, OMG, for the love of humanity, Jokic needs to get a 2nd MVP. Seriously?

No worries though, Embiid has a far better chance at actually winning an NBA championship than Jokic, so even if he never wins an MVP, with a few tweaks, he'll win a ring in the next 1-3 years. Even with Murray and Porter Jr. back, I don't think the Nuggets will. Offensively they will be great, but defensively good luck.

1) Zack Lowe >>>>>>> Antoine Walker
2) In terms of wins, both Jokic's 48 and Embiid's 51 is very low for an MVP. Only jordon in 88 and Russ in 17 won a sinilar amount, in the last 40 years. Just there were no candidates with more wins

___
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[bebopdeluxe]

I should have known better to get involved in this. At the end of the day, the best proof statement about who is "most valuable" is what is happening on the court NOW. The Sixers just went from death-warmed-over against Miami to having seized the momentum of the series - simply by having Embiid back on the floor. The guy is obviously not 100% - playing with a torn thumb, a fractured face and a Phantom of the Opera mask - but his impact on the series is the literal DEFINITION of "most valuable player".

Impacting games IN MAY. Not November. Not February. MAY.

This thread reminded me why I took a break from the GB recently. Have fun, guys.

[Infinite Llamas]

He’s getting the Steve Nash treatment — that’s what happens when you’re an analytics darling.

Let’s just give it to him next year too while we’re at it. Nash nearly won 3 years in row.

He’s gonna have a better record next year & that will justify it.

I’ve been saying it for months.

What was the analytics argument for nash? I don't recall that at all. If anything the "analytics" guy at the time, Hollinger, was talking about how Amare was the sun's best player.

Yup this. I bought Hollingers book back in the day and he put Amare on the cover and was touting him as the real mvp of the suns.

[Sharkboy242]

I should have known better to get involved in this. At the end of the day, the best proof statement about who is "most valuable" is what is happening on the court NOW. The Sixers just went from death-warmed-over against Miami to having seized the momentum of the series - simply by having Embiid back on the floor. The guy is obviously not 100% - playing with a torn thumb, a fractured face and a Phantom of the Opera mask - but his impact on the series is the literal DEFINITION of "most valuable player".

Impacting games IN MAY. Not November. Not February. MAY.

This thread reminded me why I took a break from the GB recently. Have fun, guys.

Thats cute, notify me/us when Embiid gets his finals MVP.

[rapstarter]

I should have known better to get involved in this. At the end of the day, the best proof statement about who is "most valuable" is what is happening on the court NOW. The Sixers just went from death-warmed-over against Miami to having seized the momentum of the series - simply by having Embiid back on the floor. The guy is obviously not 100% - playing with a torn thumb, a fractured face and a Phantom of the Opera mask - but his impact on the series is the literal DEFINITION of "most valuable player".

Impacting games IN MAY. Not November. Not February. MAY.

This thread reminded me why I took a break from the GB recently. Have fun, guys.

Yeah, and if the Nuggets were without Jokic, 1) they are the worst team in the league, and 2) they would have lost every game against the Warriors by 50 instead of being close in 3 games and even winning 1.

And no, the MVP award is not about what happens in May. So yeah, feel free to show yourself out because you are just embarrassing yourself.

[PlatinumState]

To think how many people thought Embiid would win

[Raps in 4]

I should have known better to get involved in this. At the end of the day, the best proof statement about who is "most valuable" is what is happening on the court NOW. The Sixers just went from death-warmed-over against Miami to having seized the momentum of the series - simply by having Embiid back on the floor. The guy is obviously not 100% - playing with a torn thumb, a fractured face and a Phantom of the Opera mask - but his impact on the series is the literal DEFINITION of "most valuable player".

Impacting games IN MAY. Not November. Not February. MAY.

This thread reminded me why I took a break from the GB recently. Have fun, guys.

Kind of like that time Jokic impacted games by taking his team to the conference finals, something Embiid has never done?

[Big J]

Good for him. He’s going to have to go further in the playoffs if he wants to win more of these. That’s the bar that was set for Giannis and others who won 2 MVPs without a chip.

[HEKTOR]

Honestly, who cares about MVP anymore though. Its a flawed award based on the RS, which nobody ultimately judges great players on, which Jokic is. Probably because its such a slog and hard for teams to practice and gameplan fully. Its too bad we only saw Jokic for 5 games this post season, none of which he took over. When teams are in a playoff series, going against the best teams with extremely tight gameplans, we see who the best and most valuable players are.

Jokic
Game 1 - 25pts, 10rbs, 6as, 3st, 1bl
Game 2 - 26pts, 11rbs, 4as, 1st, 2bl
Game 3 - 37pts, 18rbs, 5as, 3st
Game 4 - 37pts, 8rbs, 6as
Game 5 - 30pts, 19rbs, 8as, 1st, 2bl
Totals: 31ppg, 13.2rpg, 5.8apg, 1.6spg, 1bpg

Embiid
Game 1 - 19pts, 15rbs, 4as, 0st, 1bl
Game 2 - 31pts, 11rbs
Game 3 - 33pts, 13rbs, 2as, 0st, 1bl
Game 4 - 21pts, 8rbs, 3as
Game 5 - 20pts, 11rbs, 4as
Totals: 24.8ppg, 11.6rpg, 2.6apg, 0spg, 0.4bpg

Jokic against the Warriors (3rd seed) while Embiid was against the Raptors (5th seed)

Jokic with Morris, Barton, Jeff Green, and Gordon
Embiid with Maxey, Harden, Danny Green, and Harris

[hardenASG13]

One question for all Embiid fans crying here about him being snubbed.

How many times has a player with his team being lover than 3th place in his conference won MVP in the last 20 years (I didn't search further, I was lazy). One time and that was Westbrook with his historical season. This season Jokic has done something historical, and won with his team being 6th.

What has Embiid done historically this season to win MVP with his team being 4th in the East. He had historically to deal with Simmons quitting on his team and the city. That is it? Fact is if Jokic doesn't have argument for MVP, Embiid shouldn't be in the conversation.

Philly was 45-23 when Embiid played this year. He has more help, yes, but open your eyes. Miami was going to sweep Philly without Embiid, pretty easily. Hes an extremely effective and valuable player, to say he didnt belong in the conversation is just nonsense.That means philly without him is really worse than an 8 seed (also evidenced by their 6-8 RS record without him), and with him they are title contenders. Giannis was also a much better player with anyone for an eye for it, and is proving so by continuing to lead his team without Middleton (it can be done!).

Honestly, who cares about MVP anymore though. Its a flawed award based on the RS, which nobody ultimately judges great players on, which Jokic is. Probably because its such a slog and hard for teams to practice and gameplan fully. Its too bad we only saw Jokic for 5 games this post season, none of which he took over. When teams are in a playoff series, going against the best teams with extremely tight gameplans, we see who the best and most valuable players are.

You answered to my post but you didn't answer to my question. My question about Embiid wasn't is he a great player or not. Question is simple. If Jokic shouldn't win MVP because of 6th seed how can Embiid be in conversation being 4th in the east? How many times has someone won MVP in the last 20 years with his team being below 3rd in its conference?

And your comment about Jokic not taking over any game in the POs this year tells me all I need to know about you waching Nuggets games

I didnt say anything about Jokic not deserving it bc his team was 6 seed, or embiid deserving it because his team was a 4 seed. I know the award typically goes to a player on a team with a better record, but times have changed. Lots of the top teams either have multiple stars (taking away their case as "MVP")or extremely good depth. Embiid, Luka, Giannis and Jokic were the clear top candidates for the award this year. You saying Embiid didnt belong in the conversation tells me everything I need to know about you following teams outside the nuggets. I dont have a favorite team, nor do I dislike Jokic, but Im a neutral fan and can see his advanced stats, impressive as they are, are inflated due to him being the lone superstar on his team as you see across the board with great players on losing teams/poor rosters.

I am saying though that playoffs show who the best and most valuable players are each year. Jokic wasnt it (i watched 4 of their 5 games vs GS). He didnt take over any of those games,by any means, against a team with no bigs, and was a problem for his team defensively not covering ground to close driving lanes, deterring at the rim and obviously struggled with switches, understandably. I dont think hes deserving of back to back MVPs, despite being really good, and the playoff eye test is backing it up. What game in his quick 5 did he take over?

[Sharkboy242]

Can't have a Jokic thread without it being completely derailed by haters. But simultaneously, according to those that trash him, he's the league darling.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Time to give the vote back to the players instead of the media.

Why stop there? Let's give the vote back to K-pop fans. Andrew Wiggins for MVP!

Ummm...what?

I make the point that the PLAYERS should have more say in this vote - you know...the guys who have to COMPETE against these players. Perhaps their assessment of who is the best player should matter more than the media. Your response to my post is to give the vote to the fans?

Perhaps your post is sarcasm...in which case I apologize.

Players are way less qualified than the media, they would not spend the same time to research and watch enough games to form a good opinion.
Playing a guy a few times per year is not enough

___
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[Prez]

I should have known better to get involved in this. At the end of the day, the best proof statement about who is "most valuable" is what is happening on the court NOW. The Sixers just went from death-warmed-over against Miami to having seized the momentum of the series - simply by having Embiid back on the floor. The guy is obviously not 100% - playing with a torn thumb, a fractured face and a Phantom of the Opera mask - but his impact on the series is the literal DEFINITION of "most valuable player".

Impacting games IN MAY. Not November. Not February. MAY.

This thread reminded me why I took a break from the GB recently. Have fun, guys.

No it isn’t, not if you’re just going to completely ignore all context entirely.

Embiid isn’t doing anything with this Nuggets team down Murray/Porter either against a title contending Warriors team. And Jokic could absolutely win a couple home games against Miami with this Sixers squad.

[rapstarter]

The funny thing about some people is that they would give KD **** for winning with great teammates, but at the same time, try to discredit the greatness of a player who actually carried his team that had Aaron Gordon as his best teammate. You think Jokic would win just one game if he had Harden, Harris and Maxey as teammtes and faced the Raptors instead of the current title favorites?

[Snakebites]

The funny thing about some people is that they would give KD **** for winning with great teammates, but at the same time, try to discredit the greatness of a player who actually carried his team that had Aaron Gordon as his best teammate. You think Jokic would win just one game if he had Harden, Harris and Maxey as teammtes and faced the Raptors instead of the current title favorites?

It's almost as though people just have players they don't like and are reasoning backwards from there...

[Jazz9]

Well deserved.
Nobody had a better season than him

[Jcity08]

I should have known better to get involved in this. At the end of the day, the best proof statement about who is "most valuable" is what is happening on the court NOW. The Sixers just went from death-warmed-over against Miami to having seized the momentum of the series - simply by having Embiid back on the floor. The guy is obviously not 100% - playing with a torn thumb, a fractured face and a Phantom of the Opera mask - but his impact on the series is the literal DEFINITION of "most valuable player".

Impacting games IN MAY. Not November. Not February. MAY.

This thread reminded me why I took a break from the GB recently. Have fun, guys.

No it isn’t, not if you’re just going to completely ignore all context entirely.

Embiid isn’t doing anything with this Nuggets team down Murray/Porter either against a title contending Warriors team. And Jokic could absolutely win a couple home games against Miami with this Sixers squad.

Not only that, if they gave the award based how many post season games a player plays, it would unfairly lean towards the player on the better overall team with the better matchup and whose team is healthier.

At that point its more of a team award, then an individual award.

Regular season MVP is already not going to be 100% perfect (although I think the vast majority of winners were the right call), this makes it even more flawed of an evaluation.

You want an award for being good in the playoffs, its the FMVP, which is contingent on the player making the finals and being the best player on any team in that series.

[cupcakesnake]

Time to give the vote back to the players instead of the media.

Why stop there? Let's give the vote back to K-pop fans. Andrew Wiggins for MVP!

Ummm...what?

I make the point that the PLAYERS should have more say in this vote - you know...the guys who have to COMPETE against these players. Perhaps their assessment of who is the best player should matter more than the media. Your response to my post is to give the vote to the fans?

Perhaps your post is sarcasm...in which case I apologize.

it's sarcasm. a reference to the flawed voting system of the all-star game. A pointed joke and not a direct rebuttal to your statement.

But have you ever checked out the player vote during the all-star game? It's jokes. Guys like D-rose and Lou Williams getting votes because... I dunno player think they're cool?

Players are garbage analysts. It's personal and social for them. They might not vote for a guy because they don't like him or hold a personal grudge. Admiration is a big part of it too. If players voted for MVP, I bet Iverson and Kobe would have 5-6 each and Tim Duncan would receive close to zero votes. Even post-playing career we see how bad players are at stuff like this. Shaq likes players that are most like him! Pippen likes players that bring down MJ a peg. There's some rare former players that makes a great analysts but I'm going put some big emphasis on rare.

I get the theory that players SHOULD know best and why. But in practice it's always proven to be not just untrue, but laughably far away from anything coherent or reasonable. Let the professional players play, and the professional analysts analyze.