Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again)

[macNcheese3]

He deserved it down right.

[kuclas]

If we go by analytics. Charles Barkley should have a lot more mvp over Jordan.

[wade44]

Well deserved. This isn't a Steve Nash scenario either Jokic legit earned it dragging a bunch of bums to 48 wins while putting up historic numbers

[dhsilv2]

He’s getting the Steve Nash treatment — that’s what happens when you’re an analytics darling.

Let’s just give it to him next year too while we’re at it. Nash nearly won 3 years in row.

He’s gonna have a better record next year & that will justify it.

I’ve been saying it for months.

What was the analytics argument for nash? I don't recall that at all. If anything the "analytics" guy at the time, Hollinger, was talking about how Amare was the sun's best player.

Yup this. I bought Hollingers book back in the day and he put Amare on the cover and was touting him as the real mvp of the suns.

I swear it's gotten to where anytime someone disagrees with a popular opinion, they just assume it's "those evil analytics people" without even bothering to read anything on the topic. We have people posting about how Jokic is all analytics bs and Giannis is the real MVP. Meanwhile...those same anlytics think Giannis ALSO is in the middle of a top 10 all time peak. I guess they analytics just accidentally saw how great Giannis was, but are stupid about Jokic.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

He’s getting the Steve Nash treatment — that’s what happens when you’re an analytics darling.

Let’s just give it to him next year too while we’re at it. Nash nearly won 3 years in row.

He’s gonna have a better record next year & that will justify it.

I’ve been saying it for months.

What was the analytics argument for nash? I don't recall that at all. If anything the "analytics" guy at the time, Hollinger, was talking about how Amare was the sun's best player.

At the time of his first MVP +/- stats were not widely available, analytics guys were more on boxscore and this underrated Nash.
The narrative changes were he missed those 5 games and their offense collapsed they lost all of them.
Then RAPM arrived and people retroactively realized he was having one of the greatest offensive stretches ever while being slightly negative on defense.

___
Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

[BelgradeNugget]

Philly was 45-23 when Embiid played this year. He has more help, yes, but open your eyes. Miami was going to sweep Philly without Embiid, pretty easily. Hes an extremely effective and valuable player, to say he didnt belong in the conversation is just nonsense.That means philly without him is really worse than an 8 seed (also evidenced by their 6-8 RS record without him), and with him they are title contenders. Giannis was also a much better player with anyone for an eye for it, and is proving so by continuing to lead his team without Middleton (it can be done!).

Honestly, who cares about MVP anymore though. Its a flawed award based on the RS, which nobody ultimately judges great players on, which Jokic is. Probably because its such a slog and hard for teams to practice and gameplan fully. Its too bad we only saw Jokic for 5 games this post season, none of which he took over. When teams are in a playoff series, going against the best teams with extremely tight gameplans, we see who the best and most valuable players are.

You answered to my post but you didn't answer to my question. My question about Embiid wasn't is he a great player or not. Question is simple. If Jokic shouldn't win MVP because of 6th seed how can Embiid be in conversation being 4th in the east? How many times has someone won MVP in the last 20 years with his team being below 3rd in its conference?

And your comment about Jokic not taking over any game in the POs this year tells me all I need to know about you waching Nuggets games

I didnt say anything about Jokic not deserving it bc his team was 6 seed, or embiid deserving it because his team was a 4 seed. I know the award typically goes to a player on a team with a better record, but times have changed. Lots of the top teams either have multiple stars (taking away their case as "MVP")or extremely good depth. Embiid, Luka, Giannis and Jokic were the clear top candidates for the award this year. You saying Embiid didnt belong in the conversation tells me everything I need to know about you following teams outside the nuggets. I dont have a favorite team, nor do I dislike Jokic, but Im a neutral fan and can see his advanced stats, impressive as they are, are inflated due to him being the lone superstar on his team as you see across the board with great players on losing teams/poor rosters.

I am saying though that playoffs show who the best and most valuable players are each year. Jokic wasnt it (i watched 4 of their 5 games vs GS). He didnt take over any of those games,by any means, against a team with no bigs, and was a problem for his team defensively not covering ground to close driving lanes, deterring at the rim and obviously struggled with switches, understandably. I dont think hes deserving of back to back MVPs, despite being really good, and the playoff eye test is backing it up. What game in his quick 5 did he take over?

Man, why you are trying to argue with me? Let me try to explain my argument again - THERE ARE SOME 76ers fans who think Jokic shouldn't win MVP because of low seed in his conference. My question was for them. If low seed disqualifies Jokic it disqualifies Embiid too. Simple as that.

As far as all you sad about Embiid's value to 76ers, his influence on the game, I agree. Great player. But for those who think that Jokic shouldn't win MVP because of low seed the same argument should be used for Embiid.

[dhsilv2]

If we go by analytics. Charles Barkley should have a lot more mvp over Jordan.

By my count MJ would have ~9 MVP and Chuck 0 if we used box metrics which are the only analytics we have for that era.

[Cubbies2120]

If we go by analytics. Charles Barkley should have a lot more mvp over Jordan.

Except it’s not just analytics, he passes the “eye test” too.

Wanna talk about him getting abused by Curry? Let’s talk about Embiid getting abused by Precious Achiuwa (there’s a full 3 minute compilation of Raptors players who aren’t on Curry’s level straight up abusing him on perimeter). Let’s talk about Jimmy Butler bullying him in the post repeatedly last night.

But he kept up with Oladipo for a possession!

[dhsilv2]

He’s getting the Steve Nash treatment — that’s what happens when you’re an analytics darling.

Let’s just give it to him next year too while we’re at it. Nash nearly won 3 years in row.

He’s gonna have a better record next year & that will justify it.

I’ve been saying it for months.

What was the analytics argument for nash? I don't recall that at all. If anything the "analytics" guy at the time, Hollinger, was talking about how Amare was the sun's best player.

At the time of his first MVP +/- stats were not widely available, analytics guys were more on boxscore and this underrated Nash.
The narrative changes were he missed those 5 games and their offense collapsed they lost all of them.
Then RAPM arrived and people retroactively realized he was having one of the greatest offensive stretches ever while being slightly negative on defense.

___
Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

Nash was 26th in RAPM in 2005 and 10th in 2006


https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2006-rapm

[Bruin]

Read on Twitter

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[Cubbies2120]

Well deserved. This isn't a Steve Nash scenario either Jokic legit earned it dragging a bunch of bums to 48 wins while putting up historic numbers

There was a Sixers fan calling Campazzo a solid player in this thread.

I’m sure in their minds Aaron Gordon = Amare, Barton > Diaw, etc

[Bank Shot]

Congrats to Jokic. Well deserved. One of the best seasons this league has seen.

[Ni Da Ye]

Where was the EmbiidCrying.png ?

[Sharkboy242]

Check out r/Sixers for a good laugh

Its a total salt mine down there.

[hardenASG13]

You answered to my post but you didn't answer to my question. My question about Embiid wasn't is he a great player or not. Question is simple. If Jokic shouldn't win MVP because of 6th seed how can Embiid be in conversation being 4th in the east? How many times has someone won MVP in the last 20 years with his team being below 3rd in its conference?

And your comment about Jokic not taking over any game in the POs this year tells me all I need to know about you waching Nuggets games

I didnt say anything about Jokic not deserving it bc his team was 6 seed, or embiid deserving it because his team was a 4 seed. I know the award typically goes to a player on a team with a better record, but times have changed. Lots of the top teams either have multiple stars (taking away their case as "MVP")or extremely good depth. Embiid, Luka, Giannis and Jokic were the clear top candidates for the award this year. You saying Embiid didnt belong in the conversation tells me everything I need to know about you following teams outside the nuggets. I dont have a favorite team, nor do I dislike Jokic, but Im a neutral fan and can see his advanced stats, impressive as they are, are inflated due to him being the lone superstar on his team as you see across the board with great players on losing teams/poor rosters.

I am saying though that playoffs show who the best and most valuable players are each year. Jokic wasnt it (i watched 4 of their 5 games vs GS). He didnt take over any of those games,by any means, against a team with no bigs, and was a problem for his team defensively not covering ground to close driving lanes, deterring at the rim and obviously struggled with switches, understandably. I dont think hes deserving of back to back MVPs, despite being really good, and the playoff eye test is backing it up. What game in his quick 5 did he take over?

Man, why you are trying to argue with me? Let me try to explain my argument again - THERE ARE SOME 76ers fans who think Jokic shouldn't win MVP because of low seed in his conference. My question was for them. If low seed disqualifies Jokic it disqualifies Embiid too. Simple as that.

As far as all you sad about Embiid's value to 76ers, his influence on the game, I agree. Great player. But for those who think that Jokic shouldn't win MVP because of low seed the same argument should be used for Embiid.

Im trying to argue with you based on the initial quote of yours you posted saying Embiid didnt even belong in the conversation. I dont think Jokic deserved back to back MVPs, as I dont see him as the best player in the league, and there are historical implications when a guy wins back to back. The playoffs are further backing that up. What game did Jokic take over?

[DroseReturnChi]

This is a damn shame. Embiid robbed.

he can win final mvp but even that will be his last time.embiid is older and will be out of his prime similar to harden.
jokic will dominate embiid for next decade and rob his 1st all nba.

[Wolfgang630]

:lol:

Read on Twitter

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Lmao

[kuclas]

If we go by analytics. Charles Barkley should have a lot more mvp over Jordan.

Except it’s not just analytics, he passes the “eye test” too.

Wanna talk about him getting abused by Curry? Let’s talk about Embiid getting abused by Precious Achiuwa (there’s a full 3 minute compilation of Raptors players who aren’t on Curry’s level straight up abusing him on perimeter). Let’s talk about Jimmy Butler bullying him in the post repeatedly last night.

But he kept up with Oladipo for a possession!

Embiid plays defense when he wants to. As for the Toronto layup drill 3rd quarter. Put it in perspective. He had just pickup his 3rd foul. And didn’t contest any of the shots in that 3 minute span to pickup his fourth foul. Have u mentioned that ?

Perspective man.

Sure embiid takes off plays on defensive. But he’s been really good for most of the playoffs on defense when he’s engaged and not wanting to pickup fouls.

I see it as it is.

[hardenASG13]

Honestly, who cares about MVP anymore though. Its a flawed award based on the RS, which nobody ultimately judges great players on, which Jokic is. Probably because its such a slog and hard for teams to practice and gameplan fully. Its too bad we only saw Jokic for 5 games this post season, none of which he took over. When teams are in a playoff series, going against the best teams with extremely tight gameplans, we see who the best and most valuable players are.

Jokic
Game 1 - 25pts, 10rbs, 6as, 3st, 1bl
Game 2 - 26pts, 11rbs, 4as, 1st, 2bl
Game 3 - 37pts, 18rbs, 5as, 3st
Game 4 - 37pts, 8rbs, 6as
Game 5 - 30pts, 19rbs, 8as, 1st, 2bl
Totals: 31ppg, 13.2rpg, 5.8apg, 1.6spg, 1bpg

Embiid
Game 1 - 19pts, 15rbs, 4as, 0st, 1bl
Game 2 - 31pts, 11rbs
Game 3 - 33pts, 13rbs, 2as, 0st, 1bl
Game 4 - 21pts, 8rbs, 3as
Game 5 - 20pts, 11rbs, 4as
Totals: 24.8ppg, 11.6rpg, 2.6apg, 0spg, 0.4bpg

Jokic against the Warriors (3rd seed) while Embiid was against the Raptors (5th seed)

Jokic with Morris, Barton, Jeff Green, and Gordon
Embiid with Maxey, Harden, Danny Green, and Harris

Yes he has less help, and thus has to do more and produce higher numbers. Philly without embiid was about to get swept vs Miami, playing at the level of an 8 seed or worse. Im not referring to those numbers though, as they only paint part of the picture. Jokic didnt take over a single game in the way an MVP player does, and was a problem for his team on the defensive end. What game was his standout game, where his impact was too overwhelming and he elevated his teams play, like a 2 time MVP should?

[soxfan2003]

Its a regular season award, not a playoff award. Weird to see some people litigate the award using highlights/lowlights from the playoffs.

Jokic had a great season and he really deserved it.

Even if it was a playoff award:

Jokic: 31/13/6 on 64% TS against the Warriors, who have 4 all-stars on their roster and are favourites to come out of the West.

Embiid: 25/11/2 on 62% TS against the Raptors who were expected to miss the playoffs this year, and who had injuries to 3/5 starters.

I've defended Wiggins as being better right now than some his critics allege but at most the Warriors have 2 legit all-stars if the 24 best NBA players were selected before the playoffs. The league was down due to injuries this year but your point of Jokic's roster 2-15 being awful compared to what Steph Curry was playing with is 100% true. These Warriors are different than their teams of the past... They are more defined by their impressive high quality depth than having ridiculous top end talent like they had in the recent past.