Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again)

[HardenToSixers]

people are welcome to think Jokic is MVP. I just think Embiid is the more dominant player that you would rather have on most teams on a playoff run. I also think that it's pretty lame focusing so much on single-number all encompassing stats like BPM, PER or VORP, especially for conclusions as ridiculous as Jokic is as good at defense as Embiid when it is very obvious that is not the case.

He's so dominant that his scoring drops from the regular season to the playoffs.

I prefer his scoring dropping. He is elite defensively and keeps getting doubled teamed because we are playing teams that are undermanned to handle his physicality. Quick passes out of the double team and focusing on defense and rebounding is the better way to play for us to win games thus far.

Not that I should actually expect hot take artists on the GB to have a nuanced discussion about anything or actually watch games.

[Cubbies2120]

I mean there's no Magic/Bird comp when there's zero rivalry. And both are great, but far from head and shoulders above the pack. Definitely disagree with his take. The NBA does not have a "best player" currently.

These guys are well on their way to challenging for top 10 all time man. We are seeing two absolute living legends in their prime right now.

putting Giannis and Jokic in the same sentence like that is just disrespectful. They aren't super close legacy-wise and they aren't super close in terms of value right now

Remind me what Giannis has done before Jrue Holiday, an elite defender who can drop 20ppg, joined the team?

Exactly what Jokic has done without elite guard play - put up incredible stats that eventually got him bounced in the playoffs because, and stay with me for a min here…teammates matter

If it’s disrespectful to put Jokic and Giannis in the same sentence, then it’s borderline criminal to put Embiid and Jokic in the same sentence.

[Mickey8]

So you think Shaq and/or Kobe could have taken a team with Will Barton and Aaron Gordon as their next best options to the 2nd round?

I think MVP Shaq could very easily take Aaron Gordon and Will Barton to the second round, yes

Those players have averaged 14 points per game for the season, even with the all open shots Jokic was creating for them, not to mention their low basketball iq's. I wish every team in the league to have multiple Bartons on their rosters, so fans can enjoy their stupidity on the nightly basis.

[Chanel Bomber]

Why haven't we gotten rid of MVP of the regular season yet? MVP of the whole season including the playoffs would be so much better.

I think you then run the risk of overreacting to one series as opposed to the entire body of work.

I think it would make more sense to have regular season MVP and playoff MVP, although that would probably dilute the Finals MVP award.

I don't see the problem anyway. Jokic was arguably the best player in the NBA during the regular season. Nobody expected him to win a round in the playoffs,

My issue is then you have guys with multiple MVP's who haven't won a title yet. Like how many MVP's should you be allowed to win without producing a championship? Historically I don't know if there are even any 3x MVP's who've never won a title.

I think I'm fine with that in the sense that you still need a team to win a championship. I don't know that there's a single player in NBA history who could have carried Jokic's supporting cast to a championship. So it's really relative to how much these players elevate their teams.

I see what you mean, and share your sentiment to some degree (not fully), but I think if anything more importance should be given to the playoffs. I would be totally fine with splitting the award between the regular season MVP and the playoffs MVP. My guess is people would - in time - give more importance to the playoff MVP award.

[dhsilv2]

I mean there's no Magic/Bird comp when there's zero rivalry. And both are great, but far from head and shoulders above the pack. Definitely disagree with his take. The NBA does not have a "best player" currently.

These guys are well on their way to challenging for top 10 all time man. We are seeing two absolute living legends in their prime right now.

putting Giannis and Jokic in the same sentence like that is just disrespectful. They aren't super close legacy-wise and they aren't super close in terms of value right now

They absolutely are. These guys have won the last 4 MVP's. They are crushing it in the regular season and playoffs. If they were playing with the likes of McHale and Kareem they'd be meeting in the finals year after year. Sadly, that's not ever going to happen as they're not in mega markets. jokic is the magic and Giannis the Bird of this era.

[Sharkboy242]

people are welcome to think Jokic is MVP. I just think Embiid is the more dominant player that you would rather have on most teams on a playoff run. I also think that it's pretty lame focusing so much on single-number all encompassing stats like BPM, PER or VORP, especially for conclusions as ridiculous as Jokic is as good at defense as Embiid when it is very obvious that is not the case.

He's so dominant that his scoring drops from the regular season to the playoffs.

I prefer his scoring dropping. He is elite defensively and keeps getting doubled teamed because we are playing teams that are undermanned to handle his physicality. Quick passes out of the double team and focusing on defense and rebounding is the better way to play for us to win games thus far.

Not that I should actually expect hot take artists on the GB to have a nuanced discussion about anything or actually watch games.

I actually agree with what you wrote. For the Sixers to reach their potential, Embiid needs to do less and get his teammates involved. I was just giving you s*** because you're in a Jokic thread talking s***, so please don't act like you're above poor takes. If you were as nuanced as you claim to be you would understand that Jokic doesn't have the luxury of being able to drop his scoring production. Embiid has 3 teammates averaging over 18 PPG in the playoffs, Jokic didn't have a single player behind him sniff 15 PPG. Not to mention that the Warriors are simply way better than Toronto and Miami. Acknowledge the context, mr. nuance.

[Willie Colon]

I think MVP Shaq could very easily take Aaron Gordon and Will Barton to the second round, yes

Very easily is a bit of a stretch. Shaq always more or less needed reliable SG/PG's to feed him the ball and also shooters that he could kick it out when he was doubled. Jokic on the other hand is the exact opposite. He actually needs competent people that he can pass the ball to when he is creating offense.

I'm not trying to argue who is a better player obviously but i'm not sure Shaq could have just easily carried this team to the 2nd round. Specially because you can't use elbows anymore like in the past.

not exactly, Shaq in his prime always had an all time great guard next to him.
He went from Penny to Kobe to Wade. Even in those years Kobe was too young he still had NVL and Eddie Jones next to him.
No big man in history had this kind of luxury.



___
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Embiid has had Simmons, Harris, Butler, Horford, and now Harden and Maxey. A handful of excellent role players as well.

[Chanel Bomber]

Why haven't we gotten rid of MVP of the regular season yet? MVP of the whole season including the playoffs would be so much better.

I think you then run the risk of overreacting to one series as opposed to the entire body of work.

I think it would make more sense to have regular season MVP and playoff MVP, although that would probably dilute the Finals MVP award.

I don't see the problem anyway. Jokic was arguably the best player in the NBA during the regular season. Nobody expected him to win a round in the playoffs,

i agree
this is the modern NBA MVP bar

its funny as hell someone tried to troll me about LaMelo earlier in this thread. LaMelo got more hate for losing a couple play-in games at age 19-20 than Jokic gets for losing in the first round as a 2x MVP. same with Trae. i don't get why the standards are so low for the guy

Much like Westbrook, Jokic elevated what would've been a 18-to-20 win team without him to the 6th seed in the Western Conference. The Nuggets wouldn't have been better with any player instead of him as their best player.

So again, it's all relative.

There was no clear-cut MVP this season, and none of the best candidates ended up with a top 3 seed in either Conference, besides Ja. This muddied the waters a little bit, and introduced statistical achievements and advanced statistics into the conversation, where Jokic was the clear leader.

I really don't see the issue with Jokic winning MVP. It was well-deserved. I love Trae but his team - which didn't have to deal with as many injury issues as the Nuggets - wouldn't have made the playoffs without the play-in tournament, and he will likely get rewarded for his individual season with an All-NBA spot anyway.

[Mickey8]

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Take Steps MVPs away? Not a great defender.

This guy is just being petty since his boy got shorthanded yet again Embiid fan base is classless as Embiid is himself

[BoatsNZones]

We do not. Jokic is the best player in the league right now with Giannis a legit close 2nd imo, but it's a real debate. Jokic and Giannis are this era's Magic and Bird.

I mean there's no Magic/Bird comp when there's zero rivalry. And both are great, but far from head and shoulders above the pack. Definitely disagree with his take. The NBA does not have a "best player" currently.

These guys are well on their way to challenging for top 10 all time man. We are seeing two absolute living legends in their prime right now.

Maybe. It's a tough list to crack and getting tougher in the next few seasons as Curry+KD continue to put up All NBA seasons + potential title runs well into their 30's. Luka is on pace for these talks in the future as well.

I am a fan of both but Magic/Bird specifically were a sports shattering iconic rivalry that transcended the game. They were also unquestionably the alphas of the NBA and took turns leading their teams to titles. Lebron/Curry with a sprinkle of KD is the closest we had to that. These two are just... not that at this point.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

The real MVP is doing battle in Miami.

You're overrating Kyle Lowry a smidgeon, pally.

[HardenToSixers]

He's so dominant that his scoring drops from the regular season to the playoffs.

I prefer his scoring dropping. He is elite defensively and keeps getting doubled teamed because we are playing teams that are undermanned to handle his physicality. Quick passes out of the double team and focusing on defense and rebounding is the better way to play for us to win games thus far.

Not that I should actually expect hot take artists on the GB to have a nuanced discussion about anything or actually watch games.

I actually agree with what you wrote. For the Sixers to reach their potential, Embiid needs to do less and get his teammates involved. I was just giving you s*** because you're in a Jokic thread talking s***, so please don't act like you're above poor takes. If you were as nuanced as you claim to be you would understand that Jokic doesn't have the luxury of being able to drop his scoring production. Embiid has 3 teammates averaging over 18 PPG in the playoffs, Jokic didn't have a single player behind him sniff 15 PPG. Not to mention that the Warriors are simply way better than Toronto and Miami. Acknowledge the context, mr. nuance.

I'm in a Jokic thread talking **** because I'm fairly confident that the only reason he won MVP is because some idiots convinced themselves that using BPM PER and VORP as a barometer for who is the best player is actually a good idea and a bunch of media members are running with it.

I personally think that you would rather have Embiid than Jokic on a playoff run but understand it's very much up for debate between Jokic Embiid Giannis. I also think that Embiid's defense should give him the edge IMO over Jokic, because Embiid plays at his DPOY at important times throughout the year, vs. Jokic's defensive improvement is again based off of some advanced defensive metrics that are laughable at best.

And if it's a total toss up, I wish it would've gone to the guy who hasn't won one before, and who has been through so much in his career with people doubting he would ever play more games than times he's tweeted, after he had a remarkably healthy season.

I'm fine with anybody winning it but it seems like this conversation was dominated by people caring too much about advanced stats, particularly by people who refuse to watch a game and admit that Embiid is a tier above Jokic defensively and instead fall back on some kind of bogus metrics that are widely accepted by NBA minds as not actually being predictive.

[dhsilv2]

Why haven't we gotten rid of MVP of the regular season yet? MVP of the whole season including the playoffs would be so much better.

I think you then run the risk of overreacting to one series as opposed to the entire body of work.

I think it would make more sense to have regular season MVP and playoff MVP, although that would probably dilute the Finals MVP award.

I don't see the problem anyway. Jokic was arguably the best player in the NBA during the regular season. Nobody expected him to win a round in the playoffs,

My issue is then you have guys with multiple MVP's who haven't won a title yet. Like how many MVP's should you be allowed to win without producing a championship? Historically I don't know if there are even any 3x MVP's who've never won a title.

Only 8 guys have ever won 3 MVPs. And yes all of them eventually won a title.

Kareem - 6x MVP but only won the title in 2 of those 6 seasons.
Russell - 5x and yes 5 titles
Jordan - 5x MVP and won 4 titles in those 5 years
Wilt - 4x MVP only 1 title in an MVP season
Lebron - 4x MVP and 2 titles in those years
Bird - 3x MVP 2 titles
Magic - 3x MVP 1 titles in those years
Moses - 3x MVP 1 titles (after forcing his way to the runner up the prior year)

So there's your list.

Now guys with 2 both Nash and Karl Malone never won. Bob Pettit won thanks to Russell being hurt otherwise I doubt that happens. Giannis has a title but did it the year after his back to back MVP seasons. and that leaves Duncan and Curry (both 2 MVP's and 1 title in their MVP seasons).

That said historically all the top 4ish or so teams had a top 3 player on them. Unless you think Curry or Tatum or CP3/Booker are that guy...or Gobert. This was a unique season.

[Sharkboy242]

I prefer his scoring dropping. He is elite defensively and keeps getting doubled teamed because we are playing teams that are undermanned to handle his physicality. Quick passes out of the double team and focusing on defense and rebounding is the better way to play for us to win games thus far.

Not that I should actually expect hot take artists on the GB to have a nuanced discussion about anything or actually watch games.

I actually agree with what you wrote. For the Sixers to reach their potential, Embiid needs to do less and get his teammates involved. I was just giving you s*** because you're in a Jokic thread talking s***, so please don't act like you're above poor takes. If you were as nuanced as you claim to be you would understand that Jokic doesn't have the luxury of being able to drop his scoring production. Embiid has 3 teammates averaging over 18 PPG in the playoffs, Jokic didn't have a single player behind him sniff 15 PPG. Not to mention that the Warriors are simply way better than Toronto and Miami. Acknowledge the context, mr. nuance.

I'm in a Jokic thread talking **** because I'm fairly confident that the only reason he won MVP is because some idiots convinced themselves that using BPM PER and VORP as a barometer for who is the best player is actually a good idea and a bunch of media members are running with it.

I personally think that you would rather have Embiid than Jokic on a playoff run but understand it's very much up for debate between Jokic Embiid Giannis. I also think that Embiid's defense should give him the edge IMO over Jokic, because Embiid plays at his DPOY at important times throughout the year, vs. Jokic's defensive improvement is again based off of some advanced defensive metrics that are laughable at best.

And if it's a total toss up, I wish it would've gone to the guy who hasn't won one before, and who has been through so much in his career with people doubting he would ever play more games than times he's tweeted, after he had a remarkably healthy season.

I'm fine with anybody winning it but it seems like this conversation was dominated by people caring too much about advanced stats, particularly by people who refuse to watch a game and admit that Embiid is a tier above Jokic defensively and instead fall back on some kind of bogus metrics that are widely accepted by NBA minds as not actually being predictive.

If you think Jokic only won on the basis of advanced stats, then you should take your own advice and watch him play games.

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[KembaWalker]

I prefer his scoring dropping. He is elite defensively and keeps getting doubled teamed because we are playing teams that are undermanned to handle his physicality. Quick passes out of the double team and focusing on defense and rebounding is the better way to play for us to win games thus far.

Not that I should actually expect hot take artists on the GB to have a nuanced discussion about anything or actually watch games.

I actually agree with what you wrote. For the Sixers to reach their potential, Embiid needs to do less and get his teammates involved. I was just giving you s*** because you're in a Jokic thread talking s***, so please don't act like you're above poor takes. If you were as nuanced as you claim to be you would understand that Jokic doesn't have the luxury of being able to drop his scoring production. Embiid has 3 teammates averaging over 18 PPG in the playoffs, Jokic didn't have a single player behind him sniff 15 PPG. Not to mention that the Warriors are simply way better than Toronto and Miami. Acknowledge the context, mr. nuance.

I'm in a Jokic thread talking **** because I'm fairly confident that the only reason he won MVP is because some idiots convinced themselves that using BPM PER and VORP as a barometer for who is the best player is actually a good idea and a bunch of media members are running with it.

stats are easy to tweet. nuanced arguments are hard to tweet. if writers dont go with the tweets, they get blasted on social media. most would rather not deal with it

[Sharkboy242]

I actually agree with what you wrote. For the Sixers to reach their potential, Embiid needs to do less and get his teammates involved. I was just giving you s*** because you're in a Jokic thread talking s***, so please don't act like you're above poor takes. If you were as nuanced as you claim to be you would understand that Jokic doesn't have the luxury of being able to drop his scoring production. Embiid has 3 teammates averaging over 18 PPG in the playoffs, Jokic didn't have a single player behind him sniff 15 PPG. Not to mention that the Warriors are simply way better than Toronto and Miami. Acknowledge the context, mr. nuance.

I'm in a Jokic thread talking **** because I'm fairly confident that the only reason he won MVP is because some idiots convinced themselves that using BPM PER and VORP as a barometer for who is the best player is actually a good idea and a bunch of media members are running with it.

stats are easy to tweet. nuanced arguments are hard to tweet. if writers dont go with the tweets, they get blasted on social media. most would rather not deal with it

Thinking Jokic won simply on the basis of advanced is not just lazy, but also bad faith.

[SalmonsSuperfan]

people are talking about first round exits as though half the nuggets' payroll wasn't injured and not playing.

still a team game, guys.

[Sharkboy242]

Sixers' social media commentators = enlightened geniuses who watched all of Jokic games and made their vote based on that

MVP voters = Didn't watch Embiid play, slaves to advanced analytics.

[warriorschamps]

Because Steph missed the last month of the season if I had a vote I would of voted for Giannis. But I'm not crazy upset about Jokic winning this year. The more egregious Jokic MVP vote was last year when Steph should have won.

Doesn't matter though until Jokic win a chip nobody is going to take him serious as a top player.

[HardenToSixers]

I actually agree with what you wrote. For the Sixers to reach their potential, Embiid needs to do less and get his teammates involved. I was just giving you s*** because you're in a Jokic thread talking s***, so please don't act like you're above poor takes. If you were as nuanced as you claim to be you would understand that Jokic doesn't have the luxury of being able to drop his scoring production. Embiid has 3 teammates averaging over 18 PPG in the playoffs, Jokic didn't have a single player behind him sniff 15 PPG. Not to mention that the Warriors are simply way better than Toronto and Miami. Acknowledge the context, mr. nuance.

I'm in a Jokic thread talking **** because I'm fairly confident that the only reason he won MVP is because some idiots convinced themselves that using BPM PER and VORP as a barometer for who is the best player is actually a good idea and a bunch of media members are running with it.

I personally think that you would rather have Embiid than Jokic on a playoff run but understand it's very much up for debate between Jokic Embiid Giannis. I also think that Embiid's defense should give him the edge IMO over Jokic, because Embiid plays at his DPOY at important times throughout the year, vs. Jokic's defensive improvement is again based off of some advanced defensive metrics that are laughable at best.

And if it's a total toss up, I wish it would've gone to the guy who hasn't won one before, and who has been through so much in his career with people doubting he would ever play more games than times he's tweeted, after he had a remarkably healthy season.

I'm fine with anybody winning it but it seems like this conversation was dominated by people caring too much about advanced stats, particularly by people who refuse to watch a game and admit that Embiid is a tier above Jokic defensively and instead fall back on some kind of bogus metrics that are widely accepted by NBA minds as not actually being predictive.

If you think Jokic only won on the basis of advanced stats, then you should take your own advice and watch him play games.

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I've watched plenty of Jokic though and think he's a fantastic player. I even see why he has merits over Embiid because he plays a style of game that meshes with the offense more, vs. Embiid who tries to force the issue at times which works to the team's detriment. However, this year, Embiid took a step forward offensively IMO to be in the ballpark with Jokic, and then I give him the edge defensively because he is clearly the better defensive player. And when people begin to try to tell me that Jokic is as good defensively as Embiid, that's when I can come up with no other conclusion aside from them marrying themselves to advanced stats.