Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again)

[Bergmaniac]

Given that the a lot of the MVP voters are media personalities who consider analytics to be some incomprehensible mumbo-jumbo for nerds and wouldn't dream of using stats like VORP, the narrative that it was the advanced stats which swung it for Jokic is pretty funny.

[CBS7]

It’s embarrassing the mvp came from a 6th seed

Nuggets won 48 games
Sixers/Bucks won 51
Does 3 wins make or break an MVP case?

[AleksandarN]

Read on Twitter

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Lol salty Philadelphia beat-writer.

He is right. Jokic has anger management issues and can't be on the floor during key defensive plays, but hey advanced stats say he's an elite defender.

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How many people said Jokic was a elite defender? A minority if that. He is a good defender with physical limitations.

[Cubbies2120]

I'm in a Jokic thread talking **** because I'm fairly confident that the only reason he won MVP is because some idiots convinced themselves that using BPM PER and VORP as a barometer for who is the best player is actually a good idea and a bunch of media members are running with it.

I personally think that you would rather have Embiid than Jokic on a playoff run but understand it's very much up for debate between Jokic Embiid Giannis. I also think that Embiid's defense should give him the edge IMO over Jokic, because Embiid plays at his DPOY at important times throughout the year, vs. Jokic's defensive improvement is again based off of some advanced defensive metrics that are laughable at best.

And if it's a total toss up, I wish it would've gone to the guy who hasn't won one before, and who has been through so much in his career with people doubting he would ever play more games than times he's tweeted, after he had a remarkably healthy season.

I'm fine with anybody winning it but it seems like this conversation was dominated by people caring too much about advanced stats, particularly by people who refuse to watch a game and admit that Embiid is a tier above Jokic defensively and instead fall back on some kind of bogus metrics that are widely accepted by NBA minds as not actually being predictive.

If you think Jokic only won on the basis of advanced stats, then you should take your own advice and watch him play games.

Read on Twitter

I've watched plenty of Jokic though and think he's a fantastic player. I even see why he has merits over Embiid because he plays a style of game that meshes with the offense more, vs. Embiid who tries to force the issue at times which works to the team's detriment. However, this year, Embiid took a step forward offensively IMO to be in the ballpark with Jokic, and then I give him the edge defensively because he is clearly the better defensive player. And when people begin to try to tell me that Jokic is as good defensively as Embiid, that's when I can come up with no other conclusion aside from them marrying themselves to advanced stats.

Peoples main argument that Jokic is a bad defender is because he couldn’t keep up with Curry, Poole on the perimeter, and they say because Embiid guarded Oladipo successfully for a 10 sec highlight clip, he could. They seem to ignore the full 3 minute compilation from the Raptors series that showed offensive geniuses like Precious, OG leaving Embiid in the dust.

They ignore that Jokic has the most deflections as a Center. They ignore that Jokic led the entire league in CONTESTED rebounds that he had to fight for.

A 5 game sample size against the best team in the league (according to the betting odds that Embiid fans were quoting all year) erases all of that, but the Raptors picking Embiid apart an entire quarter doesn’t get brought up at all…

[Wigginstime]

It’s embarrassing the mvp came from a 6th seed

Nuggets won 48 games
Sixers/Bucks won 51
Does 3 wins make or break an MVP case?

Actually

Jokic won 46 games in 2022
Embiid won 45 games in 2022
Giannis won 45 games in 2022

Jokic won more games than either Embiid or Giannis by 1 game. The difference in record for additional wins results from how each of their teammates played when those guys missed games.

Giving MVP based on wins means you either give it to Jokic or you give it to Embiid/Giannis based on games they never played in.

[HardenToSixers]

If you think Jokic only won on the basis of advanced stats, then you should take your own advice and watch him play games.

Read on Twitter

I've watched plenty of Jokic though and think he's a fantastic player. I even see why he has merits over Embiid because he plays a style of game that meshes with the offense more, vs. Embiid who tries to force the issue at times which works to the team's detriment. However, this year, Embiid took a step forward offensively IMO to be in the ballpark with Jokic, and then I give him the edge defensively because he is clearly the better defensive player. And when people begin to try to tell me that Jokic is as good defensively as Embiid, that's when I can come up with no other conclusion aside from them marrying themselves to advanced stats.

Peoples main argument that Jokic is a bad defender is because he couldn’t keep up with Curry, Poole on the perimeter, and they say because Embiid guarded Oladipo successfully for a 10 sec highlight clip, he could. They seem to ignore the full 3 minute compilation from the Raptors series that showed offensive geniuses like Precious, OG leaving Embiid in the dust.

They ignore that Jokic has the most deflections as a Center. They ignore that Jokic led the entire league in CONTESTED rebounds that he had to fight for.

A 5 game sample size against the best team in the league (according to the betting odds that Embiid fans were quoting all year) erases all of that, but the Raptors picking Embiid apart an entire quarter doesn’t get brought up at all…

watch the games bro. it goes much longer than a couple tweets from the past week that you want to hang onto.

[RRFB]

This suggestion that Jokic only won MVP because of his VORP and that he somehow doesn’t pass the “eye test” is a made up narrative with no basis in reality. The only people spouting this nonsense are Sixers fans and national media members who have long been exposed as morons.

I’m honestly blown away by the number of truly terrible takes that have been shared today by people who claim to be knowledgeable of this sport and league.

[Cubbies2120]

It’s embarrassing the mvp came from a 6th seed

Nuggets won 48 games
Sixers/Bucks won 51
Does 3 wins make or break an MVP case?

Reminder: Jokic was on the court for more wins than Giannis/Embiid.

Unless we are giving them credit for sitting in suits on the sidelines as their team won games.

[Cubbies2120]

I've watched plenty of Jokic though and think he's a fantastic player. I even see why he has merits over Embiid because he plays a style of game that meshes with the offense more, vs. Embiid who tries to force the issue at times which works to the team's detriment. However, this year, Embiid took a step forward offensively IMO to be in the ballpark with Jokic, and then I give him the edge defensively because he is clearly the better defensive player. And when people begin to try to tell me that Jokic is as good defensively as Embiid, that's when I can come up with no other conclusion aside from them marrying themselves to advanced stats.

Peoples main argument that Jokic is a bad defender is because he couldn’t keep up with Curry, Poole on the perimeter, and they say because Embiid guarded Oladipo successfully for a 10 sec highlight clip, he could. They seem to ignore the full 3 minute compilation from the Raptors series that showed offensive geniuses like Precious, OG leaving Embiid in the dust.

They ignore that Jokic has the most deflections as a Center. They ignore that Jokic led the entire league in CONTESTED rebounds that he had to fight for.

A 5 game sample size against the best team in the league (according to the betting odds that Embiid fans were quoting all year) erases all of that, but the Raptors picking Embiid apart an entire quarter doesn’t get brought up at all…

watch the games bro. it goes much longer than a couple tweets from the past week that you want to hang onto.

Same thing for Jokic though, generational defender Draymond Green said it himself that he improved a lot as a defender, he had plenty of game saving blocks in the regular season, led a bunch of defensive categories, but all that goes out the window because of a 5 game sample…

But it doesn’t go out the window for Joel?

[AleksandarN]

Think Antoine Walker knows a little more about basketball than you maybe? Just maybe?

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Then maybe just maybe the people who actually voted for the award know more about basketball than you? Food for thought

Bunch of advanced stats media nerds, who most probably haven't touched a basketball in their life? It's telling that many current and former players think Embiid was the MVP.

A bunch ? Many? You are at this again i see. Lol. At least you didn’t say majority this time.

[Desiderium]

Has a single player not on the nuggets congratulated him on his MVP? The blatant disrespect is real

No one congratulated to him last year either, only Luka I think, from the star players.

I hate to bring race into things but there's clearly something going on here.

[Sharkboy242]

I'm in a Jokic thread talking **** because I'm fairly confident that the only reason he won MVP is because some idiots convinced themselves that using BPM PER and VORP as a barometer for who is the best player is actually a good idea and a bunch of media members are running with it.

I personally think that you would rather have Embiid than Jokic on a playoff run but understand it's very much up for debate between Jokic Embiid Giannis. I also think that Embiid's defense should give him the edge IMO over Jokic, because Embiid plays at his DPOY at important times throughout the year, vs. Jokic's defensive improvement is again based off of some advanced defensive metrics that are laughable at best.

And if it's a total toss up, I wish it would've gone to the guy who hasn't won one before, and who has been through so much in his career with people doubting he would ever play more games than times he's tweeted, after he had a remarkably healthy season.

I'm fine with anybody winning it but it seems like this conversation was dominated by people caring too much about advanced stats, particularly by people who refuse to watch a game and admit that Embiid is a tier above Jokic defensively and instead fall back on some kind of bogus metrics that are widely accepted by NBA minds as not actually being predictive.

If you think Jokic only won on the basis of advanced stats, then you should take your own advice and watch him play games.

Read on Twitter

I've watched plenty of Jokic though and think he's a fantastic player. I even see why he has merits over Embiid because he plays a style of game that meshes with the offense more, vs. Embiid who tries to force the issue at times which works to the team's detriment. However, this year, Embiid took a step forward offensively IMO to be in the ballpark with Jokic, and then I give him the edge defensively because he is clearly the better defensive player. And when people begin to try to tell me that Jokic is as good defensively as Embiid, that's when I can come up with no other conclusion aside from them marrying themselves to advanced stats.

I respect that your take isn't just low level s***posting but I think your emphasis on defense for a regular season award is misplaced. It simply doesn't matter as much in the regular season seeing as teams don't hunt for mismatches. Its not like the Nuggets were perceived as bad defensively either (I think they ranked 15th despite losing their best perimeter defender in Dozier for the season). Not to mention that defense is just way less of an individual thing and way more team oriented. Its all about switching, recovering, schemes and effort. Good defensive players wont be good if the 4 players beside them aren't. Defense isn't as tied to individuals as it is to teams

To Jokic credit he's a real good stealer and deflector and had 3 game winning blocks. If Embiid was so much more impactful defensively during the regular season then wouldn't he have won more games and ran away with it via the W column? It didn't happen.

[rapstarter]

The guy makes nearly 60% of his shots, rebounds 14 a game, and is one of the best passers the league's ever seen, but no, he doesn't pass the eye test LOL

[whatisacenter]

Congratulations Jokic, well deserved! Wouldn’t have been mad if Embiid or Giannis had won it either.

[Bank Shot]

To argue for Embiid, you have to ignore all the numbers, not just the advanced ones. Jokic's box score numbers are better too.

[CBS7]

It’s embarrassing the mvp came from a 6th seed

Nuggets won 48 games
Sixers/Bucks won 51
Does 3 wins make or break an MVP case?

Actually

Jokic won 46 games in 2022
Embiid won 45 games in 2022
Giannis won 45 games in 2022

Jokic won more games than either Embiid or Giannis by 1 game. The difference in record for additional wins results from how each of their teammates played when those guys missed games.

Giving MVP based on wins means you either give it to Jokic or you give it to Embiid/Giannis based on games they never played in.

Even better

[kuclas]

Jamal Murray basically will be 19 months removed from acl surgery (a normal 10-12 month recovery period) MPJ almost 12 months from back surgery (a normal 4-5 month recovery period). No excuses that Jokic has not help or that those guys are “just working themselves back from surgery”

Jokic deserves the regular season injury. But the narrative for a third mvp will be extremely difficult. Outside of Murray going nba bubble Murray. Jokic would be stuck with the same narrative as embiid in the playoffs. Second round exits.

The reality is embiid lost the mvp cause of the 9 games he missed due to Covid. Sixers went 2-7. He has been really healthy this season. Swing those games he missed. And embiid team record can easily swing to 54-55 games. Enough to convince voters.

And anyone thinking Harris was playing great. Harris stunk most of the year. Maxey played out of position. Half the sixers team out with Covid for 3 different stretches of the first half of the season with Covid. Embiid Carried them. And sixers record with or without harden was the same which all points to embiid being the main factor.

[HardenToSixers]

Peoples main argument that Jokic is a bad defender is because he couldn’t keep up with Curry, Poole on the perimeter, and they say because Embiid guarded Oladipo successfully for a 10 sec highlight clip, he could. They seem to ignore the full 3 minute compilation from the Raptors series that showed offensive geniuses like Precious, OG leaving Embiid in the dust.

They ignore that Jokic has the most deflections as a Center. They ignore that Jokic led the entire league in CONTESTED rebounds that he had to fight for.

A 5 game sample size against the best team in the league (according to the betting odds that Embiid fans were quoting all year) erases all of that, but the Raptors picking Embiid apart an entire quarter doesn’t get brought up at all…

watch the games bro. it goes much longer than a couple tweets from the past week that you want to hang onto.

Same thing for Jokic though, generational defender Draymond Green said it himself that he improved a lot as a defender, he had plenty of game saving blocks in the regular season, led a bunch of defensive categories, but all that goes out the window because of a 5 game sample…

But it doesn’t go out the window for Joel?

I never said he didn't improve. Embiid is one of the top defenders in the league on a regular basis and Jokic is somebody who improved and is an above average defender given the below average tools he was dealt.

[rapstarter]

Jamal Murray basically will be 19 months removed from acl surgery (a normal 10-12 month recovery period) MPJ almost 12 months from back surgery (a normal 4-5 month recovery period). No excuses that Jokic has not help or that those guys are “just working themselves back from surgery”

Jokic deserves the regular season injury. But the narrative for a third mvp will be extremely difficult. Outside of Murray going nba bubble Murray. Jokic would be stuck with the same narrative as embiid in the playoffs. Second round exits.

The reality is embiid lost the mvp cause of the 9 games he missed due to Covid. Sixers went 2-7. He has been really healthy this season. Swing those games he missed. And embiid team record can easily swing to 54-55 games. Enough to convince voters.

And anyone thinking Harris was playing great. Harris stunk most of the year. Maxey played out of position. Half the sixers team out with Covid for 3 different stretches of the first half of the season with Covid. Embiid Carried them. And sixers record with or without harden was the same which all points to embiid being the main factor.

Sixers were 6-8 without Embiid, Nuggets 2-6 without Jokic. For all the criticism of Harris, Maxey and Harden, they are all significantly better than Gordon, Morris and Barton.

Also, while it's no guarantee that Murray and MPJ will be back to 100%, I'm sure Jokic would much rather have them than not. He doesn't seem to care about MVP as much as Embiid and his fans.

[Cubbies2120]

The guy makes nearly 60% of his shots, rebounds 14 a game, and is one of the best passers the league's ever seen, but no, he doesn't pass the eye test LOL

If I told you 3 years ago there's a player that averaged 27/14 on 58% from the field, people would say "Yeah, that's why Shaq is the most dominant ever".

Except it's not Shaq doing it, and the guy doing it is putting up more assists than prime LeBron while doing it...