Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again)

[Duke4life831]

He's the MVP of the season, but it's one of those weak MVP type years that people will look back at without context and wonder how the hell he won it that year.

What? This was one of the stronger MVP races we have had in a long time.

Jokic: 27/14/8 on 66 TS%, led in almost every advanced metric and had some historically good advanced metrics
Giannis: 30/11/6 on 63 TS%
Embiid: 30/11/4 on 61 TS%

Its the current 3 best players in the game all having so far their best years in their career. There is no way anyone can spin this as a weak MVP year.

[velkisimo]

He's the MVP of the season, but it's one of those weak MVP type years that people will look back at without context and wonder how the hell he won it that year.

What? This was one of the stronger MVP races we have had in a long time.

Jokic: 27/14/8 on 66 TS%, led in almost every advanced metric and had some historically good advanced metrics
Giannis: 30/11/6 on 63 TS%
Embiid: 30/11/4 on 61 TS%

Its the current 3 best players in the game all having so far their best years in their career. There is no way anyone can spin this as a weak MVP year.

Big J can

[-Sammy-]

Not for calling anyone out or rubbing it in (I feel for Sixers fans-- your guy had a tremendous year), but to remind all of us about the importance of good decorum in sports discussion and in everything else:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2178219&p=97795443#p97795443

[HardenToSixers]

It's annoying how many people keep bringing up these goal post shifting arguments to support their guy and just refuse to look at it holistically. This thread, and the whole MVP discourse this year, was like the old story of the blind mice arguing over when an elephant is while each of them observe only 1 individual part of the elephant. If you don't know that story, it's just longer version of "missing the forest for the trees".

- Yes winning matters in the MVP award. The problem with this year was that the clear-cut top 3 NBA players all posted unspectacular win totals. If Jokic is disqualified for 48 wins, Embiid and Giannis aren't winning with 51. Unless you are proposing we draw the line exactly at 49-51 wins, which seems a little convenient for all your arguments.
- There was not an MVP level player on a team with an awesome record this year. If you want MVP to go to a 55+ win team, your options were Devin Booker, Ja Morant, or Chris Paul. So why are all these Embiid or Giannis fans here to plead their case.
- If Philidelphia or Milwaukee had won 60 games, we'd be crowning Embiid or Giannis while Jokic fans complained.
- Jokic winning does not mean Giannis or Embiid were unworthy. We were blessed with 3 strong MVP-level seasons. All of them were all-time historically great individual performances. Embiid scored like Wilt, 2x MVP Giannis had one of his best seasons ever, and Jokic gave us the biggest scoring/playmaking synergy season ever. At the end of the day, Jokic's statistical advantage was strong enough to win the award over 2 very deserving players.

Jokic had a great season no doubt and is deserving even though I disagree. But I will never be able to take someone seriously who says Jokic deserved it because he broke the single-season PER record as if that is something anybody should actually care about or any all-encompassing, single-number metrics. It's lazy and takes all context out of discussion.

That is one stat of many that people have pointed to with Jokic on why he should've won, I dont think anyone is saying the only argument needed for Jokic is PER. Whether its VORP, BPM, WS/48, RAPTOR, or practically all of the advanced metrics. The vast majority of them all had Jokic as the leader. Many people point to his dominance in all these advanced metrics as an argument on why he won. Again I think the number of people who think he deserved to win only off his PER is extremely low.

When it comes to Jokic the argument is pretty easy to understand and the vast majority are making the same argument. The fact that Jokic had such a fantastic season statistically (raw and advanced), then add in he was without his 2 best teammates, then add in the other two MVP contenders didnt have much of a separation in the win column (again Jokic actually played in more wins). When you combine it all, Jokic is the MVP. That is the argument that the vast majority of Jokic fans (or people who just thought he deserved to win) are making.

I'm sure when Daryl Morey and Masai Ujiri are evaluating trade candidates they rank all the players by their VORP and use that as their primary gauge for player impact. I bet you Miami is really kicking themselves right now because they have Jimmy Butler instead of Trae Young. If only they had the guy with the 0.4 higher VORP they would've had more success this season.

[jokeboy86]

Jokic had a great season no doubt and is deserving even though I disagree. But I will never be able to take someone seriously who says Jokic deserved it because he broke the single-season PER record as if that is something anybody should actually care about or any all-encompassing, single-number metrics. It's lazy and takes all context out of discussion.

That is one stat of many that people have pointed to with Jokic on why he should've won, I dont think anyone is saying the only argument needed for Jokic is PER. Whether its VORP, BPM, WS/48, RAPTOR, or practically all of the advanced metrics. The vast majority of them all had Jokic as the leader. Many people point to his dominance in all these advanced metrics as an argument on why he won. Again I think the number of people who think he deserved to win only off his PER is extremely low.

When it comes to Jokic the argument is pretty easy to understand and the vast majority are making the same argument. The fact that Jokic had such a fantastic season statistically (raw and advanced), then add in he was without his 2 best teammates, then add in the other two MVP contenders didnt have much of a separation in the win column (again Jokic actually played in more wins). When you combine it all, Jokic is the MVP. That is the argument that the vast majority of Jokic fans (or people who just thought he deserved to win) are making.

I'm sure when Daryl Morey and Masai Ujiri are evaluating trade candidates they rank all the players by their VORP and use that as their primary gauge for player impact. I bet you Miami is really kicking themselves right now because they have Jimmy Butler instead of Trae Young. If only they had the guy with the 0.4 higher VORP they would've had more success this season.

Idk you put Trae Young in Miami and they would be pretty nasty because you would be surrounding Young with a stout defensive squad and he probably wouldn't have to shoot as much. Young with that roster minus Jimmy actually sounds frightening to me.

[Duke4life831]

Jokic had a great season no doubt and is deserving even though I disagree. But I will never be able to take someone seriously who says Jokic deserved it because he broke the single-season PER record as if that is something anybody should actually care about or any all-encompassing, single-number metrics. It's lazy and takes all context out of discussion.

That is one stat of many that people have pointed to with Jokic on why he should've won, I dont think anyone is saying the only argument needed for Jokic is PER. Whether its VORP, BPM, WS/48, RAPTOR, or practically all of the advanced metrics. The vast majority of them all had Jokic as the leader. Many people point to his dominance in all these advanced metrics as an argument on why he won. Again I think the number of people who think he deserved to win only off his PER is extremely low.

When it comes to Jokic the argument is pretty easy to understand and the vast majority are making the same argument. The fact that Jokic had such a fantastic season statistically (raw and advanced), then add in he was without his 2 best teammates, then add in the other two MVP contenders didnt have much of a separation in the win column (again Jokic actually played in more wins). When you combine it all, Jokic is the MVP. That is the argument that the vast majority of Jokic fans (or people who just thought he deserved to win) are making.

I'm sure when Daryl Morey and Masai Ujiri are evaluating trade candidates they rank all the players by their VORP and use that as their primary gauge for player impact. I bet you Miami is really kicking themselves right now because they have Jimmy Butler instead of Trae Young. If only they had the guy with the 0.4 higher VORP they would've had more success this season.

Honestly what are you talking about? I have no clue how you read my entire post and came away thinking that I believe VORP is the end all for this discussion. Either reading comprehension isnt your thing, or youre a little too emotionally invested to see the forest for the trees on this one.

[eyeatoma]

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=A-J2gYsftbdjfRylEyxaag

First intelligent thought Doc has had in the last decade.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

[eyeatoma]

For people who can't appreciate Embiid's defense and think that Jokic can even hold a candle to what Joel is able to do, read this.

Great analysis.

Read on Twitter

https://www.libertyballers.com/2022/5/9/23063291/joel-embiid-sixers-defense-heat-james-harden-jimmy-butler-nba-playoffs

[Cubbies2120]

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=A-J2gYsftbdjfRylEyxaag

First intelligent thought Doc has had in the last decade.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

His first intelligent thought is a vague statement (“some of the stats”)? Sure, some of them, but when 75+% of them indicate that one player is more impactful (and the other 25% are split between the other two candidates), that’s not an anomaly.

THOSE DAMN ANALYTICS FORCING US TO ABANDON MID RANGE INEFFICIENT BASKETBALL AND FORCING TEAMS TO TAKE THE TWO MOST EFFICIENT SHOTS!

Oh wait analytics are good in that case

Just not in the case where the guy I coach doesn’t get the award he wants so bad…

There’s always next year, maybe Luka comes into the season out of shape which will open the door for Embiid to win it all assuming he can stay on the court (he’s trending in the right direction - played a career high in games this year!)

[rapstarter]

Jokic had a great season no doubt and is deserving even though I disagree. But I will never be able to take someone seriously who says Jokic deserved it because he broke the single-season PER record as if that is something anybody should actually care about or any all-encompassing, single-number metrics. It's lazy and takes all context out of discussion.

Jokic didn't win it because he broke 1 single-season PER record. He won it because almost every number we can think of all agree that this was one of the best seasons ever. People who give zero **** about PER voted for him. Your argument is one of the most wildly reductive things I've read on this site.

Do you have eyeatoma on your ignore list?

[Cubbies2120]

For people who can't appreciate Embiid's defense and think that Jokic can even hold a candle to what Joel is able to do, read this.

Great analysis.

Read on Twitter

https://www.libertyballers.com/2022/5/9/23063291/joel-embiid-sixers-defense-heat-james-harden-jimmy-butler-nba-playoffs

Hey bud, I don't expect you to answer this question, but am curious...is this great defense by Embiid?

https://imgbb.com/FwWvDch
https://imgbb.com/R2qC5nm

I only ask because he was credited with stops on both of these, despite being nowhere near the shooter.

How about this?

Read on Twitter

But wait, a few possessions in the playoffs shouldn't make or break a player's body of work in the regular season, right? Yet, why is this the case for Jokic when facing one of the GOAT offensive players?

Here's a nice little article for ya since you're all about posting them now that the race is done

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nikola-jokic-bolstered-his-mvp-case-with-his-defense/

Aaaaaaandddd stiiillllllllll!

[Cubbies2120]

Since we're using MVP candidate coaches...

Read on Twitter

Shots fired

[AleksandarN]

Something we haven’t seen in 22 years means something.

Jokic put up a stat line that has never been done before, not one time in 75 years, so no 22 years means nothing.

Great now it goes back to my original argument the MVP award was never based solely on stats until this year. So going forward should the award be given to the player who had the best statistical season?

What was it based on when Kareem won it when he didn't make the playoffs or the two times Malone won it with 46 and 47 wins respectively?

[HardenToSixers]

That is one stat of many that people have pointed to with Jokic on why he should've won, I dont think anyone is saying the only argument needed for Jokic is PER. Whether its VORP, BPM, WS/48, RAPTOR, or practically all of the advanced metrics. The vast majority of them all had Jokic as the leader. Many people point to his dominance in all these advanced metrics as an argument on why he won. Again I think the number of people who think he deserved to win only off his PER is extremely low.

When it comes to Jokic the argument is pretty easy to understand and the vast majority are making the same argument. The fact that Jokic had such a fantastic season statistically (raw and advanced), then add in he was without his 2 best teammates, then add in the other two MVP contenders didnt have much of a separation in the win column (again Jokic actually played in more wins). When you combine it all, Jokic is the MVP. That is the argument that the vast majority of Jokic fans (or people who just thought he deserved to win) are making.

I'm sure when Daryl Morey and Masai Ujiri are evaluating trade candidates they rank all the players by their VORP and use that as their primary gauge for player impact. I bet you Miami is really kicking themselves right now because they have Jimmy Butler instead of Trae Young. If only they had the guy with the 0.4 higher VORP they would've had more success this season.

Honestly what are you talking about? I have no clue how you read my entire post and came away thinking that I believe VORP is the end all for this discussion. Either reading comprehension isnt your thing, or youre a little too emotionally invested to see the forest for the trees on this one.

your argument boils down to

1. Without his two best teammates: I don't care. Sixers dealt with plenty of roster turmoil. Tobias Harris played godawful for most of the year and Sixers fans were calling for his head, Maxey is a 2nd year player, Simmons was sitting out, questionable role player depth in the front court and on the wing, issues integrating Harden caused a late season slide.

2. Wins column: once again, don't care. They're close enough that it shouldn't factor in hugely. Saying "played in more wins" is a stupid argument and splitting hairs. Sixers are a higher seed in the playoffs which offsets that.

So again, your argument mostly boils down to Jokic's advanced stats were better. Congrats.

[HardenToSixers]

For people who can't appreciate Embiid's defense and think that Jokic can even hold a candle to what Joel is able to do, read this.

Great analysis.

Read on Twitter

https://www.libertyballers.com/2022/5/9/23063291/joel-embiid-sixers-defense-heat-james-harden-jimmy-butler-nba-playoffs

nah bro you need to look at his regular season RAPTOR

[HardenToSixers]

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/m8lt52/daryl_morey_on_publicly_available_advanced/

This is Daryl Morey speaking with no agenda in any of this argument a year ago, where he says that these statistics for defense "are very bad" and teams use their own statistics with tracking data which are an improvement but still not perfect. Think I'm gonna trust Daryl Morey over the GMs on this board lol. And again, just another reason why I think acting like advanced stat differences is some kind of reliable tool we should draw definitive conclusions from while ignoring all other context is such an absurd premise.

[rapstarter]

I'm sure when Daryl Morey and Masai Ujiri are evaluating trade candidates they rank all the players by their VORP and use that as their primary gauge for player impact. I bet you Miami is really kicking themselves right now because they have Jimmy Butler instead of Trae Young. If only they had the guy with the 0.4 higher VORP they would've had more success this season.

Honestly what are you talking about? I have no clue how you read my entire post and came away thinking that I believe VORP is the end all for this discussion. Either reading comprehension isnt your thing, or youre a little too emotionally invested to see the forest for the trees on this one.

your argument boils down to

1. Without his two best teammates: I don't care. Sixers dealt with plenty of roster turmoil. Tobias Harris played godawful for most of the year and Sixers fans were calling for his head, Maxey is a 2nd year player, Simmons was sitting out, questionable role player depth in the front court and on the wing, issues integrating Harden caused a late season slide.

2. Wins column: once again, don't care. They're close enough that it shouldn't factor in hugely. Saying "played in more wins" is a stupid argument and splitting hairs. Sixers are a higher seed in the playoffs which offsets that.

So again, your argument mostly boils down to Jokic's advanced stats were better. Congrats.

People "don't care" about any of your nonsensical arguments either. Congrats, at least you make people laugh.

[Cubbies2120]

I'm sure when Daryl Morey and Masai Ujiri are evaluating trade candidates they rank all the players by their VORP and use that as their primary gauge for player impact. I bet you Miami is really kicking themselves right now because they have Jimmy Butler instead of Trae Young. If only they had the guy with the 0.4 higher VORP they would've had more success this season.

Honestly what are you talking about? I have no clue how you read my entire post and came away thinking that I believe VORP is the end all for this discussion. Either reading comprehension isnt your thing, or youre a little too emotionally invested to see the forest for the trees on this one.

your argument boils down to

1. Without his two best teammates: I don't care. Sixers dealt with plenty of roster turmoil. Tobias Harris played godawful for most of the year and Sixers fans were calling for his head, Maxey is a 2nd year player, Simmons was sitting out, questionable role player depth in the front court and on the wing, issues integrating Harden caused a late season slide.

2. Wins column: once again, don't care. They're close enough that it shouldn't factor in hugely. Saying "played in more wins" is a stupid argument and splitting hairs. Sixers are a higher seed in the playoffs which offsets that.

So again, your argument mostly boils down to Jokic's advanced stats were better. Congrats.

He passes the eye test too, for many people.

Too bad that's subjective and the only argument Embiid has is a subjective one, not an objective one.

LOL @ comparing the Sixers roster issues / players playing "godawful" (godawful = 2nd best player on the Nuggets btw ), Maxey being a 2nd year player (as if years in league is an argument compared to production on the court?), and trouble integrating Harden causing a late season slide (!? their winning % was better with him than without him lol, tf you talkin about I guess you can theoretically walk up a slide, so maybe that's what you meant )

[HardenToSixers]

That is one stat of many that people have pointed to with Jokic on why he should've won, I dont think anyone is saying the only argument needed for Jokic is PER. Whether its VORP, BPM, WS/48, RAPTOR, or practically all of the advanced metrics. The vast majority of them all had Jokic as the leader. Many people point to his dominance in all these advanced metrics as an argument on why he won. Again I think the number of people who think he deserved to win only off his PER is extremely low.

When it comes to Jokic the argument is pretty easy to understand and the vast majority are making the same argument. The fact that Jokic had such a fantastic season statistically (raw and advanced), then add in he was without his 2 best teammates, then add in the other two MVP contenders didnt have much of a separation in the win column (again Jokic actually played in more wins). When you combine it all, Jokic is the MVP. That is the argument that the vast majority of Jokic fans (or people who just thought he deserved to win) are making.

I'm sure when Daryl Morey and Masai Ujiri are evaluating trade candidates they rank all the players by their VORP and use that as their primary gauge for player impact. I bet you Miami is really kicking themselves right now because they have Jimmy Butler instead of Trae Young. If only they had the guy with the 0.4 higher VORP they would've had more success this season.

Idk you put Trae Young in Miami and they would be pretty nasty because you would be surrounding Young with a stout defensive squad and he probably wouldn't have to shoot as much. Young with that roster minus Jimmy actually sounds frightening to me.

I disagree but if that's a debate you want to have then we could certainly have an informed discussion about it. You know, the kind of discussion you have when you don't act like advanced stats are some kind of objective truth used to compare player impact. Especially when they are widely considered to not reliably measure defensive impact, which is as you may know, half of the game of basketball.

[AleksandarN]

Jokic had a great season no doubt and is deserving even though I disagree. But I will never be able to take someone seriously who says Jokic deserved it because he broke the single-season PER record as if that is something anybody should actually care about or any all-encompassing, single-number metrics. It's lazy and takes all context out of discussion.

That is one stat of many that people have pointed to with Jokic on why he should've won, I dont think anyone is saying the only argument needed for Jokic is PER. Whether its VORP, BPM, WS/48, RAPTOR, or practically all of the advanced metrics. The vast majority of them all had Jokic as the leader. Many people point to his dominance in all these advanced metrics as an argument on why he won. Again I think the number of people who think he deserved to win only off his PER is extremely low.

When it comes to Jokic the argument is pretty easy to understand and the vast majority are making the same argument. The fact that Jokic had such a fantastic season statistically (raw and advanced), then add in he was without his 2 best teammates, then add in the other two MVP contenders didnt have much of a separation in the win column (again Jokic actually played in more wins). When you combine it all, Jokic is the MVP. That is the argument that the vast majority of Jokic fans (or people who just thought he deserved to win) are making.

I'm sure when Daryl Morey and Masai Ujiri are evaluating trade candidates they rank all the players by their VORP and use that as their primary gauge for player impact. I bet you Miami is really kicking themselves right now because they have Jimmy Butler instead of Trae Young. If only they had the guy with the 0.4 higher VORP they would've had more success this season.

Or we can go by the polls they have every year on who they think is the best center in the game. Guess who the NBA execs choose last year by an overwhelming margin? Hint it was not Embiid.