misleading awards, past and present

[sp6r=underrated]

Voters for all defense awards struggle with accuracy because defensive value is much less related to on ball play than offense. Not just in the obvious sense that defenders don't touch the ball as much as offensive players but that on ball defense is far less important than on ball offense.

As viewers the way we learn to view a basketball game is to focus attention on the basketball. This creates warped perception on offense. Except for extreme ball dominant players, Luka, the ball is in their hands a majority of the time. You really need to observe what they are doing off the ball. On defense it creates enormously warped perceptions because so much of defense value are critical and timely rotation that occur away from the ball that cuts off a pass before it can be made.

To really accurately evaluate defense you need to force yourself to not focus so much on the basketball which is very hard to do as it is so ingrained.

[Colbinii]

Many all-defensive awards are bad in part because all-defensive team awards are typically voted by reputation and reputation takes years ti build.

[trex_8063]

I don't know if these qualify as awards, but those star offensive wings with multiple all-defensive teams they didn't have any business being on. Kobe is the most oft cited player, but Mike too. And him having a DPOY allows the myth makers to go crazy.

I think you've summarized the main core/type of awards that will be misleading: the defensive ones. They consistently are the ones that have the widest margin for [and highest frequency of] error.

When looking at things like number of All-Star selections [which is where most people start when first dabbling their toes into historical player comparisons] there will always be a select few players overrated by this (e.g. Joe Johnson??) and players underrated (e.g. Kevin Johnson, Reggie Miller), too.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

One of the most bizarre ones when basketball was less positionless compared to today.

In 1994-95 Dikembe won the DPOY award and yet was voted to the 2nd team all NBA team amongst Centers behind David Robinson who was voted to the 1st team all NBA defensive team.

[Colbinii]

One of the most bizarre ones when basketball was less positionless compared to today.

In 1994-95 Dikembe won the DPOY award and yet was voted to the 2nd team all NBA team amongst Centers behind David Robinson who was voted to the 1st team all NBA defensive team.

2012 DPOY: Tyson Chandler
All-Defensive 2nd team: Tyson Chandler

2013 DPOY: Marc Gasol
All-Defensive 2nd team: Marc Gasol

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Cool to know. I never knew this happened outside of the 94-95 season

[prolific passer]

Cool to know. I never knew this happened outside of the 94-95 season

Bill Russell won the 58 and 62 mvps.
Made the all nba 2nd team in both those seasons.

[GSWFan1994]

One of the most bizarre ones when basketball was less positionless compared to today.

In 1994-95 Dikembe won the DPOY award and yet was voted to the 2nd team all NBA team amongst Centers behind David Robinson who was voted to the 1st team all NBA defensive team.

I believe that happened (and still happens) because the DPOY is voted by the press, while the All-Defensive teams are voted by the coaches.

We had a year, if I'm not mistaken, where Marc Gasol was the DPOY and was All-Defensive 2nd team at the same time.

Same for the 50s/60s MVPs, I think (Russell example above).

[cupcakesnake]

I don't know if these qualify as awards, but those star offensive wings with multiple all-defensive teams they didn't have any business being on. Kobe is the most oft cited player, but Mike too. And him having a DPOY allows the myth makers to go crazy.

I think you've summarized the main core/type of awards that will be misleading: the defensive ones. They consistently are the ones that have the widest margin for [and highest frequency of] error.

When looking at things like number of All-Star selections [which is where most people start when first dabbling their toes into historical player comparisons] there will always be a select few players overrated by this (e.g. Joe Johnson??) and players underrated (e.g. Kevin Johnson, Reggie Miller), too.

So many misleading numbers of all-star appearances came out of the conferences having a huge talent discrepancy in the 2000s. Chris Bosh with 11 (almost twice as many as Pau Gasol! more than Webber and Sheed combined! more than Griffin and Love combined!), Joe Johnson with 7. No way Vince Carter had 8 seasons as a top 24 player. Al Horford and Derozan with 5.

[tsherkin]

Chris Bosh with 11 (almost twice as many as Pau Gasol! more than Webber and Sheed combined!

I think this is the right message (Bosh made the ASG more than he should have) with the wrong examples.

Sheed wasnt a dominant, perennial All-Star. Webber was riddled with injury issues and basically made the ASG any time he averaged 20+ ppg in enough games, his last run in Philly notwithstanding.

more than Griffin and Love combined!), Joe Johnson with 7. No way Vince Carter had 8 seasons as a top 24 player. Al Horford and Derozan with 5.

"No way" Vince deserved to be an All-Star 8 times? You remember that he was a 25/5/4 player across that span, an electric in-game dunker and got himself back together in Jersey after some injury drag at the end of his time with Toronto, yes? and that he didnt make it again after 07? His selections were quite appropriate.

Edit: that's a limited argument, of course, averages only, but im phone-posting. will cheerily expound later, sorry.

[cupcakesnake]

Chris Bosh with 11 (almost twice as many as Pau Gasol! more than Webber and Sheed combined!

I think this is the right message (Bosh made the ASG more than he should have) with the wrong examples.

Sheed wasnt a dominant, perennial All-Star. Webber was riddled with injury issues and basically made the ASG any time he averaged 20+ ppg in enough games, his last run in Philly notwithstanding.

more than Griffin and Love combined!), Joe Johnson with 7. No way Vince Carter had 8 seasons as a top 24 player. Al Horford and Derozan with 5.

"No way" Vince deserved to be an All-Star 8 times? You remember that he was a 25/5/4 player across that span, an electric in-game dunker and got himself back together in Jersey after some injury drag at the end of his time with Toronto, yes? and that he didnt make it again after 07? His selections were quite appropriate.

Edit: that's a limited argument, of course, averages only, but im phone-posting. will cheerily expound later, sorry.

I gave more examples than Sheed and Webber.
To be clear on what I'm saying:
- Sheed might have been a 6x all-star (instead of 4) playing in a normal or weak conference. 2002, 2003 are the years I'm looking at. Sheed had some weak all-star seasons that would have gotten him in in the East. (Ironically, he got a little Bosh treatment late in his career).
- Sheed/Webber/Gasol all had to fight for the scraps of Duncan/Dirk/Sheed (and a bit of late-career Karl Malone). While it's hard to find another all-star year for Webber, it's easy to find 2-3 seasons each for Pau and Sheed where posted at least weak all-star level seasons.
- Blake and Love had it slightly easier than their WC big brothers, but still had to compete with Aldridge, Amar'e, Zbo, Dirk, Duncan.
- Bosh's all-star competition at power forward: Rashard Lewis, Antawn Jamison, Al Horford, and the late careers versions of Sheed, Amar'e, and Jermaine O'Neal.
- Overall, had conferences been more equal from 2000-2015, this whole group is probably all 6-8 time all-stars, rather than Bosh standing heads and shoulders over the entire group.

With Vince, I think he would have been a 6-time all-star in a stronger conference. I'm not forgetting about his New Jersey renaissance and I don't think I'm underrating his career. Look at Vince from 2003-2005. Despite injuries and dispirited play, Vince was coasting into the all-star game, usually with the fan vote. The 2005 season starts with 20 games of Vince sulking his way to 15ppg and tanking his trade value into the Aaron/Eric Williams+Zo's contract+FRP. In a normal conference you don't bounce back and make the all-star game, even if he was immediately awesome in New Jersey. The 2003 season he was straight up injured for a lot of the first half of the season, but made the game as a starter with the fan vote. I'm not saying Vince should not be a multi-time all-star, just that 8 really paints an incorrect narrative of how many of those seasons were all-star level from him.

[MartinToVaught]

Finals MVP and Sixth Man of the Year are both highly misleading awards in general.

Finals MVP is small sample size theater by definition and, because of the arbitrary unwritten rule of not giving it to a player on the losing team, it doesn't even always reward the most valuable player in the one series it covers. For instance, LeBron was inarguably the most valuable player on the court in 2015, but instead of acknowledging this, the voters decided to punish him for not beating a mega-stacked team with Matthew Dellavedova as his second-best player. What's even the point of this award?

Hockey does it so much better with the Conn Smythe, which rewards players for sustained excellence through a whole playoff run, not just a few games at the end.

Sixth Man of the Year usually rewards players for being volume chuckers and scoring lots of points against other teams' backups. Defense, efficiency and team play don't even factor into the equation. The Clippers have had three different Sixth Men of the Year in the past decade and all three have been fools' gold when it matters.

[An Unbiased Fan]

a good easy example is kobe late career all-D giving people the idea he was a lockdown defender well into his 30's

No Kobe deserved those All-D teams. He was still a lockdown defender. The only misleading awards at RAPM rankings which give false impressions. Like for example, look at Luka's defensive numbers in comparison to Giannis this season.