best players by archetype

[Doctor MJ]

Defensive Quarterback:
Pioneer: Kevin Garnett
Best: Draymond Green
Future: ???

What makes you think Green is better in that role than Garnett? Also, why do you think KG is a pioneer? Do you think such role didn't exist until last 15 years?

To be clear, when we combine Defensive Quarterback & Goaltender, I'd be inclined to rate KG above Dray, but I think that when it comes to be the quickest brain with the quickest mouth, I tend to think of Dray.

Re: Role didn't exist until last 15 years. I tend to see it as a thing that took on new life when they loosened illegal defense rules. Would you disagree? Who comes to mind for you?

[70sFan]

I have been tracking best centers games for last two years and I actually went very in-depth with breaking down their post games. Shaq scored points in the post at around 50 TS% (in like 35 games from 200-01 sample), he wasn't that efficient of an isolation scorer mostly because of his FT%, but he wasn't very efficient converting those hooks, turnarounds and deep finishes from the field either (only around 51 FG% and that included power moves and dunks/lobs from overplays).

In comparison, Kareem scored from the post much more efficiently - at around 57 TS% if I remember correctly (don't have the laptop in front of me right now). That's absurdly good efficiency from isolation. He didn't draw as many fouls as Shaq, but he converted those FTs and he was far better at making his shots from the field as well.

Shaq's absurd efficiency comes from his offensive rebounding and inside finishing, not from his post game.

I suppose it begins to come down to what you define as "post game." To me, moving off-ball in and around the post for quick touches, just-in-time cuts, offensive rebounding and all that other stuff IS post game. Post isolation is typically inefficient. If you want to say that Shaq wasn't as efficient as Kareem at specifically isolation scoring, sure. It sounds like you have tracking data to prove that and it doesn't super surprise me because Kareem was unearthly tall/long and that skyhook was insane, plus he had good counters. But I guess we have a semantic disagreement over what counts as "post offense," which is fine. I see your point and that research is good stuff

I mean, I define post game as anything that starts with Shaq trying to establish position in the post. That wouldn't include only typical behind the basket game, but also lobs from overplays, quick catches after establishing deep position or beating fronting defenses. Quick touched are included in my sample, I didn't include putbacks though.

[70sFan]

Defensive Quarterback:
Pioneer: Kevin Garnett
Best: Draymond Green
Future: ???

What makes you think Green is better in that role than Garnett? Also, why do you think KG is a pioneer? Do you think such role didn't exist until last 15 years?

To be clear, when we combine Defensive Quarterback & Goaltender, I'd be inclined to rate KG above Dray, but I think that when it comes to be the quickest brain with the quickest mouth, I tend to think of Dray.

Re: Role didn't exist until last 15 years. I tend to see it as a thing that took on new life when they loosened illegal defense rules. Would you disagree? Who comes to mind for you?

Well, I thought about Bill Russell of course. We have to remember that there was an era before illegal defense and teams were allowed to play more fluid gameplans then. I think someone like Dave Cowens also worked within similar archetype.

[tsherkin]

I mean, I define post game as anything that starts with Shaq trying to establish position in the post. That wouldn't include only typical behind the basket game, but also lobs from overplays, quick catches after establishing deep position or beating fronting defenses. Quick touched are included in my sample, I didn't include putbacks though.

I think offensive rebounding from a dude spending that much time near the rim is fairly important. And it creates offense, so I generally count it. But again, that's a semantic division, not an absolute, for sure.

[Doctor MJ]

What makes you think Green is better in that role than Garnett? Also, why do you think KG is a pioneer? Do you think such role didn't exist until last 15 years?

To be clear, when we combine Defensive Quarterback & Goaltender, I'd be inclined to rate KG above Dray, but I think that when it comes to be the quickest brain with the quickest mouth, I tend to think of Dray.

Re: Role didn't exist until last 15 years. I tend to see it as a thing that took on new life when they loosened illegal defense rules. Would you disagree? Who comes to mind for you?

Well, I thought about Bill Russell of course. We have to remember that there was an era before illegal defense and teams were allowed to play more fluid gameplans then. I think someone like Dave Cowens also worked within similar archetype.

I can't speak to their level of in-game communication with the same confidence, but by all means: Expound!

[asindc]

point forward. pioneer: magic

Strictly speaking, Magic didn't pioneer that position. Oscar Robertson was a tall, ball-handling guard before him and Rick Barry was definitely a prototype large ball-handler in the 70s. And you can bandy about semantics as well, since Magic was more properly actually a guard than a forward. John Johnson on the Sonics, also in the 70s. Even Bird was more of an actual "point forward," per se. Robert Reid in Houston. Anyway, even if you look off Marques Johnson and all the other guys who did it during Magic's actual career, and if you consider Oscar "just a guard" or whatever, it remains true that Barry and John Johnson were doing it before Magic was in the NBA.

Any mention of pioneering the point forward (not big guard/forward but strictly forward) position should include Paul Pressey. Pressey quite often originated Milwaukee’s offense from the wing.

[tsherkin]

point forward. pioneer: magic

Strictly speaking, Magic didn't pioneer that position. Oscar Robertson was a tall, ball-handling guard before him and Rick Barry was definitely a prototype large ball-handler in the 70s. And you can bandy about semantics as well, since Magic was more properly actually a guard than a forward. John Johnson on the Sonics, also in the 70s. Even Bird was more of an actual "point forward," per se. Robert Reid in Houston. Anyway, even if you look off Marques Johnson and all the other guys who did it during Magic's actual career, and if you consider Oscar "just a guard" or whatever, it remains true that Barry and John Johnson were doing it before Magic was in the NBA.

Any mention of pioneering the point forward (not big guard/forward but strictly forward) position should include Paul Pressey. Pressey quite often originated Milwaukee’s offense from the wing.

And I thought of him, but he is relatively quite late in the development of the big ballhandler, you know? Pressey under Donn Nelson is another of those mile markers, and a precursor to other things but he wasnt even drafted until 82.