Jalen Brunson obsession

[thebuzzardman]

Looks IQ could become a good player. Just add Brunson and ensure IQ gets his 30 mpg by getting rid of D. Rose and Burks.
Then work on getting rid of Fournier so there's time for Grimes

[Knicksfan1992]

Fournier is a much better player than Conley at this stage of his career IMO. He's a better, more diverse shooter. They're probably equal defensively at this point and Fournier is the bigger body so easier to hide on that end. Conley is still a true pg and organizer which has value but he's not really bringing anything outside of that anymore...

There's no reason to trade Fournier to open up cap space since realistically the Knicks can not operate as an under the cap team for the foreseeable future. Doing this for a diminishing player like Conley is especially dumb IMO because it is again another roadblock to starting IQ..

If you're going to trade Fournier, then, ideally, you are packaging him with 1-2 other mid tier contracts in a consolidation move for a bigger deal that could also open up playing time for your younger guys. Maybe for Hayward? Tobias Harris? Something along those lines...

[Deeeez Knicks]

IQ is the clear choice to start at PG for the Knicks next season. They owe him a shot in year 3 to prove it. Brunson or Jones aren't superstars that will make this a championship team so why spend the money and assets when there is an in house option. I would bring over Rokas and start him before giving those 2 $15-20 mil a year.

Yea, i keep forgetting about Rokas.

Every other option is likely going to cost too much or we won't get anyway. We made our bed by wasting cap space last year. At this point might as well see what we have with IQ, Rokas. Deuce with Rose as the vet

[Polk377]

IQ is the clear choice to start at PG for the Knicks next season. They owe him a shot in year 3 to prove it. Brunson or Jones aren't superstars that will make this a championship team so why spend the money and assets when there is an in house option. I would bring over Rokas and start him before giving those 2 $15-20 mil a year.

Yea, i keep forgetting about Rokas.

Every other option is likely going to cost too much or we won't get anyway. We made our bed by wasting cap space last year. At this point might as well see what we have with IQ, Rokas. Deuce with Rose as the vet

They dodged a bullet by not having cap space to spend on these guys this offseason. Neither is worth it.

[Jalen Bluntson]

IQ is the clear choice to start at PG for the Knicks next season. They owe him a shot in year 3 to prove it. Brunson or Jones aren't superstars that will make this a championship team so why spend the money and assets when there is an in house option. I would bring over Rokas and start him before giving those 2 $15-20 mil a year.

Yea, i keep forgetting about Rokas.

Every other option is likely going to cost too much or we won't get anyway. We made our bed by wasting cap space last year. At this point might as well see what we have with IQ, Rokas. Deuce with Rose as the vet

Thibs is the HC. He isn't gonna give Deuce or Rokas a shot. It'll be Burks before any of them. IQ would be lucky to get a shot with a healthy D Rose in the rotation.

[Deeeez Knicks]

IQ is the clear choice to start at PG for the Knicks next season. They owe him a shot in year 3 to prove it. Brunson or Jones aren't superstars that will make this a championship team so why spend the money and assets when there is an in house option. I would bring over Rokas and start him before giving those 2 $15-20 mil a year.

Yea, i keep forgetting about Rokas.

Every other option is likely going to cost too much or we won't get anyway. We made our bed by wasting cap space last year. At this point might as well see what we have with IQ, Rokas. Deuce with Rose as the vet

Thibs is the HC. He isn't gonna give Deuce or Rokas a shot. It'll be Burks before any of them. IQ would be lucky to get a shot with a healthy D Rose in the rotation.

True, I'm sure they will pick up someone like Wall, Rubio, Dragic or Payton and start them with Rose off the bench. IQ will be back to 15-20mpg and pulled whenever he misses a shot

[Jalen Bluntson]

Yea, i keep forgetting about Rokas.

Every other option is likely going to cost too much or we won't get anyway. We made our bed by wasting cap space last year. At this point might as well see what we have with IQ, Rokas. Deuce with Rose as the vet

Thibs is the HC. He isn't gonna give Deuce or Rokas a shot. It'll be Burks before any of them. IQ would be lucky to get a shot with a healthy D Rose in the rotation.

True, I'm sure they will pick up someone like Wall, Rubio, Dragic or Payton and start them with Rose off the bench. IQ will be back to 15-20mpg and pulled whenever he misses a shot

It's depressing. You just know they are gonna do some stupid **** this summer. The draft. FA. Trades or lack of trades Then we get to see orc face and his ridiculous rotations. 5+ months until opening night!! Yawn.

[Jay10]

Looks IQ could become a good player. Just add Brunson and ensure IQ gets his 30 mpg by getting rid of D. Rose and Burks.
Then work on getting rid of Fournier so there's time for Grimes

Quickley is getting Obi minutes with Brunson on the roster.

[nedleeds]

Thibs is the HC. He isn't gonna give Deuce or Rokas a shot. It'll be Burks before any of them. IQ would be lucky to get a shot with a healthy D Rose in the rotation.

True, I'm sure they will pick up someone like Wall, Rubio, Dragic or Payton and start them with Rose off the bench. IQ will be back to 15-20mpg and pulled whenever he misses a shot

It's depressing. You just know they are gonna do some stupid **** this summer. The draft. FA. Trades or lack of trades Then we get to see orc face and his ridiculous rotations. 5+ months until opening night!! Yawn.

Looks like Elf and Rose are back on the menu!

[moocow007]

IQ is the clear choice to start at PG for the Knicks next season. They owe him a shot in year 3 to prove it. Brunson or Jones aren't superstars that will make this a championship team so why spend the money and assets when there is an in house option. I would bring over Rokas and start him before giving those 2 $15-20 mil a year.

Yea, i keep forgetting about Rokas.

Every other option is likely going to cost too much or we won't get anyway. We made our bed by wasting cap space last year. At this point might as well see what we have with IQ, Rokas. Deuce with Rose as the vet

Thibs is the HC. He isn't gonna give Deuce or Rokas a shot. It'll be Burks before any of them. IQ would be lucky to get a shot with a healthy D Rose in the rotation.

There are reports that the front office has realized that they made a mistake last season misjudging how close they were to be a competitive team and will try to move some of their role playing vets. Of all their role playing vets Burks is probably the easiest one to move as he's the most useful/versatile relative to the contract and health among them all.

[moocow007]

Yea, i keep forgetting about Rokas.

Every other option is likely going to cost too much or we won't get anyway. We made our bed by wasting cap space last year. At this point might as well see what we have with IQ, Rokas. Deuce with Rose as the vet

Thibs is the HC. He isn't gonna give Deuce or Rokas a shot. It'll be Burks before any of them. IQ would be lucky to get a shot with a healthy D Rose in the rotation.

True, I'm sure they will pick up someone like Wall, Rubio, Dragic or Payton and start them with Rose off the bench. IQ will be back to 15-20mpg and pulled whenever he misses a shot

Better Rubio for a small contract than maxing out someone that will be here long term at big dollars clogging up the other young players future...unless you're sure that that someone can really move the needle significantly relative to the cap space he's going to consume.

[thebuzzardman]

Yea, i keep forgetting about Rokas.

Every other option is likely going to cost too much or we won't get anyway. We made our bed by wasting cap space last year. At this point might as well see what we have with IQ, Rokas. Deuce with Rose as the vet

Thibs is the HC. He isn't gonna give Deuce or Rokas a shot. It'll be Burks before any of them. IQ would be lucky to get a shot with a healthy D Rose in the rotation.

There are reports that the front office has realized that they made a mistake last season misjudging how close they were to be a competitive team and will try to move some of their role playing vets. Of all their role playing vets Burks is probably the easiest one to move as he's the most useful/versatile relative to the contract and health among them all.

Unfortunately, the role playing vets are all mediocre and interest in them will be luke warm at best, even if they are expiring.
Oh, and Knicks will have to take on salary, as the only way to get rid of them is to take on another mediocre vet, but with another year or two remaining.

[moocow007]

I'll be very honest here...

I don't think that Jalen Brunson is a true PG. I think he's a very talented combo guard that may be best off as an elite 6th man type player.

He has a lot of things to like about his game for sure, but the pure PG related skills (running an offense, managing tempo, getting his teammates easier shots, etc.) aren't really among them. Now if this team already had someone else at some other position that has those type of skills, then sure, it may be a better fit. But I just want to remind everyone that the Knicks best "that type of guy" is the guy that most of you want to string up and filet...and want off this team asap. There are no supporting guys that can offset Brunson's lack of true PG skills that would make pegging Brunson in as the starting PG and (let's be honest) no.1 option going to make this likely work out well.

To add a guy like Brunson to a team that you also want to remove who was basically their defacto PG is just asking for disappointment...ESPECIALLY at what it will likely take to sign him. It's what I have been talking about over and over again. It's the same type of reason why I said going all out for FVV last offseason also wasn't a good idea (and NO it doesn't mean what the Knicks ended up doing was a good idea either...just because what they did was stupid, doesn't mean that anything else would have been smart...it just would have been less stupid).

Assuming the Knicks try (and likely fail) to land an actual top tier elite "star" PG, hopefully they are willing to admit that they are much farther along than what a Jalen Brunson at near max will do for them and just give the young guys they already have a chance. While by no means is IQ an ideal PG either but he's only 22 and if you are willing to accept that this (getting this franchise back on track) will take time, then committing to a young player that looked terrific after the All-Star break (since we seem to be focused on the "what have you done lately" mantra) may be the better option.

Get a veteran PG (that's actually been a real PG not a guy like Burks or Payton) that can help in the short term while you continue to let IQ grow into it. For everyone rubbing Brunson's jock, if you look at IQ's numbers after the All-Star break it's actually comparable to what Brunson did this season. And they already have IQ and he will only cost them $2.3 million next season and $4.1 million after that (or basically more than 1/10th what it will cost them to get Brunson on the roster for those 2 seasons).

Yeah yeah I get it, having Brunson the player is better than not having him, but having the cap space and a young player that may very well be on track to do what Brunson can do AND keeping the assets that they will have to move to get Brunson may actually be better long term. The Knicks will have cap space again once their overpaid vet role players contracts expire after next season. If Brunson can be had for a reasonable contract then by all means, but the Knicks do not need to get into a bidding war with another team (be it Dallas or Detroit or whomever) for a guy that isn't really a true PG nor a proven star especially since the cost isn't just going to be cap space that will be locked up but also the assets needed to acquire Brunson in a sign and trade AND the minutes lost to young guys that many of you guys are complaining should be getting more playing time.

If I was Dallas I would expect to get IQ, Toppin and a 1st. That's not chump change specially considering how good both the young guys looked after the All-Star break. And then to take a chance on a guy that likely will get a contract that may be way overvalued for what he can do for a team like the Knicks? That's not sound basketball IMO.

[moocow007]

Thibs is the HC. He isn't gonna give Deuce or Rokas a shot. It'll be Burks before any of them. IQ would be lucky to get a shot with a healthy D Rose in the rotation.

There are reports that the front office has realized that they made a mistake last season misjudging how close they were to be a competitive team and will try to move some of their role playing vets. Of all their role playing vets Burks is probably the easiest one to move as he's the most useful/versatile relative to the contract and health among them all.

Unfortunately, the role playing vets are all mediocre and interest in them will be luke warm at best, even if they are expiring.
Oh, and Knicks will have to take on salary, as the only way to get rid of them is to take on another mediocre vet, but with another year or two remaining.

Why would the Knicks need to take on a mediocre vet with 2 years remaining if they are moving a vet with 1 year remaining that actually is productive in the right role? Alec Burks not being a starting PG doesn't mean that he has no value at all to a team looking for a productive and versatile vet off the bench.

[thebuzzardman]

There are reports that the front office has realized that they made a mistake last season misjudging how close they were to be a competitive team and will try to move some of their role playing vets. Of all their role playing vets Burks is probably the easiest one to move as he's the most useful/versatile relative to the contract and health among them all.

Unfortunately, the role playing vets are all mediocre and interest in them will be luke warm at best, even if they are expiring.
Oh, and Knicks will have to take on salary, as the only way to get rid of them is to take on another mediocre vet, but with another year or two remaining.

Why would the Knicks need to take on a mediocre vet with 2 years remaining if they are moving a vet with 1 year remaining that actually is productive in the right role? Alec Burks not being a starting PG doesn't mean that he has no value at all to a team looking for a productive and versatile vet off the bench.

So the Knicks are going to move their role playing vets for some more role playing vets?

The only way that Thibs doesn't play them is if the front office intervenes. If the front office intervenes and Burks and Noel and maybe Taj rightfully play no minutes or Randle gets him minutes reduced etc, then why bother doing any trades? That could be accomplished by just benching them.

And the reason I state that the Knicks will have to take back salary is, who really wants Burks or Noel for a TPE? How many team can even absorb them into space? It would, at the least, be a trade for another player who is also expiring, so what's the point.
I don't really see a scenario where the Knicks are able to "bundle" these players together for a more useful player, but again, if they do, that's a player that will play over the youth.

Unless, finally, Knicks are looking to put a couple of vets WITH some of the youth and land a better player that way, though again, that feels unlikely.

[8516knicks]

I'll be very honest here...

I don't think that Jalen Brunson is a true PG. I think he's a very talented combo guard that may be best off as an elite 6th man type player.

He has a lot of things to like about his game for sure, but the pure PG related skills (running an offense, managing tempo, getting his teammates easier shots, etc.) aren't really among them. Now if this team already had someone else at some other position that has those type of skills, then sure, it may be a better fit. But I just want to remind everyone that the Knicks best "that type of guy" is the guy that most of you want to string up and filet...and want off this team asap. There are no supporting guys that can offset Brunson's lack of true PG skills that would make pegging Brunson in as the starting PG and (let's be honest) no.1 option going to make this likely work out well.

To add a guy like Brunson to a team that you also want to remove who was basically their defacto PG is just asking for disappointment...ESPECIALLY at what it will likely take to sign him. It's what I have been talking about over and over again. It's the same type of reason why I said going all out for FVV last offseason also wasn't a good idea (and NO it doesn't mean what the Knicks ended up doing was a good idea either...just because what they did was stupid, doesn't mean that anything else would have been smart...it just would have been less stupid).

Assuming the Knicks try (and likely fail) to land an actual top tier elite "star" PG, hopefully they are willing to admit that they are much farther along than what a Jalen Brunson at near max will do for them and just give the young guys they already have a chance. While by no means is IQ an ideal PG either but he's only 22 and if you are willing to accept that this (getting this franchise back on track) will take time, then committing to a young player that looked terrific after the All-Star break (since we seem to be focused on the "what have you done lately" mantra) may be the better option.

Get a veteran PG (that's actually been a real PG not a guy like Burks or Payton) that can help in the short term while you continue to let IQ grow into it. For everyone rubbing Brunson's jock, if you look at IQ's numbers after the All-Star break it's actually comparable to what Brunson did this season. And they already have IQ and he will only cost them $2.3 million next season and $4.1 million after that (or basically more than 1/10th what it will cost them to get Brunson on the roster for those 2 seasons).

Yeah yeah I get it, having Brunson the player is better than not having him, but having the cap space and a young player that may very well be on track to do what Brunson can do AND keeping the assets that they will have to move to get Brunson may actually be better long term. The Knicks will have cap space again once their overpaid vet role players contracts expire after next season. If Brunson can be had for a reasonable contract then by all means, but the Knicks do not need to get into a bidding war with another team (be it Dallas or Detroit or whomever) for a guy that isn't really a true PG nor a proven star especially since the cost isn't just going to be cap space that will be locked up but also the assets needed to acquire Brunson in a sign and trade AND the minutes lost to young guys that many of you guys are complaining should be getting more playing time.

If I was Dallas I would expect to get IQ, Toppin and a 1st. That's not chump change specially considering how good both the young guys looked after the All-Star break. And then to take a chance on a guy that likely will get a contract that may be way overvalued for what he can do for a team like the Knicks? That's not sound basketball IMO.

*****
I don't think the Knicks get Brunson; he's the second best player on a team that has made the 2nd round. He'll get paid with them and not have to deal with the Knick circus.

But I'm curious who these mythical TRUE point guards you mention are? Care to list them?

You know, the guys who are elite at "running an offense, managing tempo, getting his teammates easier shots, etc." ?

Does the list begin and end with Steph Curry and Chris Paul - who I'm sure many in your camp would argue are on the downhill or overpaid or too costly/unable to be acquired?

Just who are these COMPLETE TRUE PGs you speak of? Especially the ones not making over $20M/year.

I'm curious how many there are in the entire NBA that meet your qualifications.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Thibs is the HC. He isn't gonna give Deuce or Rokas a shot. It'll be Burks before any of them. IQ would be lucky to get a shot with a healthy D Rose in the rotation.

True, I'm sure they will pick up someone like Wall, Rubio, Dragic or Payton and start them with Rose off the bench. IQ will be back to 15-20mpg and pulled whenever he misses a shot

Better Rubio for a small contract than maxing out someone that will be here long term at big dollars clogging up the other young players future...unless you're sure that that someone can really move the needle significantly relative to the cap space he's going to consume.

Yea and since we are over the cap it’s looking bleak for move the needle type options…even Brunson is out of our range, whether he even moves the needle enough or not.

Rubio is an ok vet and won’t break the bank but I really wouldn’t even be interested in him unless we make some other changes. Thibs would play him 30+mpg and we have so many vets. At this point I would rather audition younger players and try to find the next Tyus Jones/Alvarado/Brunson for cheap

[8516knicks]

True, I'm sure they will pick up someone like Wall, Rubio, Dragic or Payton and start them with Rose off the bench. IQ will be back to 15-20mpg and pulled whenever he misses a shot

Better Rubio for a small contract than maxing out someone that will be here long term at big dollars clogging up the other young players future...unless you're sure that that someone can really move the needle significantly relative to the cap space he's going to consume.

Yea and since we are over the cap it’s looking bleak for move the needle type options…even Brunson is out of our range, whether he even moves the needle enough or not.

Rubio is an ok vet and won’t break the bank but I really wouldn’t even be interested in him unless we make some other changes. Thibs would play him 30+mpg and we have so many vets. At this point I would rather audition younger players and try to find the next Tyus Jones/Alvarado/Brunson for cheap

That would be the best way BUT Thibs/Dolan/Leon won't do that. The only way the Knicks will play a young PG is if he's a top 3 pick in the draft. We had our chance - if either RJ or Porzingas had been a PG. They weren't so we're looking for next years Burke, Burks, Mudiay, Gallloway, Kemba, Jose OLE, .... don't you guys get tired of 37 win seasons???

[Jalen Bluntson]

Yea, i keep forgetting about Rokas.

Every other option is likely going to cost too much or we won't get anyway. We made our bed by wasting cap space last year. At this point might as well see what we have with IQ, Rokas. Deuce with Rose as the vet

Thibs is the HC. He isn't gonna give Deuce or Rokas a shot. It'll be Burks before any of them. IQ would be lucky to get a shot with a healthy D Rose in the rotation.

There are reports that the front office has realized that they made a mistake last season misjudging how close they were to be a competitive team and will try to move some of their role playing vets. Of all their role playing vets Burks is probably the easiest one to move as he's the most useful/versatile relative to the contract and health among them all.

Where are these reports? I haven't heard anything like that. I don't believe you!

[moocow007]

Thibs is the HC. He isn't gonna give Deuce or Rokas a shot. It'll be Burks before any of them. IQ would be lucky to get a shot with a healthy D Rose in the rotation.

There are reports that the front office has realized that they made a mistake last season misjudging how close they were to be a competitive team and will try to move some of their role playing vets. Of all their role playing vets Burks is probably the easiest one to move as he's the most useful/versatile relative to the contract and health among them all.

Where are these reports? I haven't heard anything like that. I don't believe you!

It's been in the news from various sources. Blurbs and tidbits here and there lol. Could just be conjecture on the writers part since it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the Knicks offseason moves were a disaster and that pretty much every one of their returning free agents flubbed badly.