How good could have Bernard King have been if he hadn't injured his knee

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Re: How good could have Bernard King have been if he hadn't injured his knee 

Post#21 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu May 12, 2022 6:18 pm

70sFan wrote:It's more of a narrative than reality though. Knicks offense wasn't good in that series and in fact, it wasn't nearly as close as some may believe when you look at point differential.

That's the whole problem - we assume that King had no help similary to how Iverson had no help in 2001. King had elite defensive team around him with excellent coach. We shouldn't focus too much on volume scoring. This team was literally the best defense in the league that year.

The reality is that both players went to Conference Semis and Dantley also played very well against the Suns. If you go by pace, the difference isn't big either:

Sure, King peaked higher in playoffs but his playoffs averages are inflated by his Pistons series when he faced all-offense and no defense Pistons in the first round. His scoring numbers against Celtics looks much more normal.

Then again, I could be wrong but I feel that Dantley gives you a little more outside of scoring. He was better offensive rebounder, more willing passer, better shooter and I don't think there is a huge difference on defense either (I'd actually take Pistons Dantley over King, but he was a bit lazy on that end in Utah).


No, I'm not really assuming anything tbh. I've been following the nba long enough to understand all the nuances and how teams are built and all that. I think its fair though to recognize how good King was and how he had two insanely good scoring nights to get the series to 7 games(against a Celtic team which destroyed Mil before winning the title) after he demolished Det for almost 43ppg on 60% shooting. Det's defense was closer to league average than the bottom that year as well. Regardless of how we portray all that though my larger point was that if you pair him up with Ewing and he stays healthy I think he'd be thought of as top 40-60 all time(obviously a ring gets him in the lower range). Close to Gervin though I think.
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Re: How good could have Bernard King have been if he hadn't injured his knee 

Post#22 » by tsherkin » Thu May 12, 2022 6:33 pm

Cavsfansince84 wrote:Regardless of how we portray all that though my larger point was that if you pair him up with Ewing and he stays healthy I think he'd be thought of as top 40-60 all time(obviously a ring gets him in the lower range). Close to Gervin though I think.


That's possible. It would have been interesting to see how those two co-existed, given the spots that they both liked and that King wasn't an especially remarkable playmaker. But it would have been very interesting to watch, and it's a shame it never happened. If you look at him relative to some of the other big-name SFs of the 80s, he certainly stacks up enough to merit discussion. Vandeweghe, English, Nique (once you settle folks down from the excitement of his dunks), a bit of older Erving, Mark Aguirre, Dantley, right? And we see where some of those guys ranked in the Top 100 project. Anywhere from 18 (Erving) to 55 (Dantley), 68 (English), 73 (Wilkins) and so forth.

King with Ewing. Hmm. Well, Ewing played well enough with little guards who liked the ball above the arc and slashing in. Dunno how he'd have enjoyed a mid-post wing, but let's say they figured it out. A few more years of lighting it up and top 80 certainly makes some sense, and naturally if they ever won, higher than that. There's a broad range where he might have fit in, and I guess it depends on exactly how incendiary his scoring was and for how long in terms of how he'd place relative to his peers.
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Re: How good could have Bernard King have been if he hadn't injured his knee 

Post#23 » by 70sFan » Thu May 12, 2022 6:43 pm

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
70sFan wrote:It's more of a narrative than reality though. Knicks offense wasn't good in that series and in fact, it wasn't nearly as close as some may believe when you look at point differential.

That's the whole problem - we assume that King had no help similary to how Iverson had no help in 2001. King had elite defensive team around him with excellent coach. We shouldn't focus too much on volume scoring. This team was literally the best defense in the league that year.

The reality is that both players went to Conference Semis and Dantley also played very well against the Suns. If you go by pace, the difference isn't big either:

Sure, King peaked higher in playoffs but his playoffs averages are inflated by his Pistons series when he faced all-offense and no defense Pistons in the first round. His scoring numbers against Celtics looks much more normal.

Then again, I could be wrong but I feel that Dantley gives you a little more outside of scoring. He was better offensive rebounder, more willing passer, better shooter and I don't think there is a huge difference on defense either (I'd actually take Pistons Dantley over King, but he was a bit lazy on that end in Utah).


No, I'm not really assuming anything tbh. I've been following the nba long enough to understand all the nuances and how teams are built and all that. I think its fair though to recognize how good King was and how he had two insanely good scoring nights to get the series to 7 games(against a Celtic team which destroyed Mil before winning the title) after he demolished Det for almost 43ppg on 60% shooting. Det's defense was closer to league average than the bottom that year as well. Regardless of how we portray all that though my larger point was that if you pair him up with Ewing and he stays healthy I think he'd be thought of as top 40-60 all time(obviously a ring gets him in the lower range). Close to Gervin though I think.

Fair enough, I didn't try to imply that you overrate King - more than you underrate Dantley here :wink:
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Re: How good could have Bernard King have been if he hadn't injured his knee 

Post#24 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu May 12, 2022 7:02 pm

70sFan wrote:
Fair enough, I didn't try to imply that you overrate King - more than you underrate Dantley here :wink:


The thing is I tend to rate Dantley higher than most do. I argued on his behalf quite a bit in the top 100 project. Its just that people don't associate much with his Jazz teams and by the time he got to Det they had slowed down the offense and he wasn't featured as much. King otoh if he had stayed healthy I think keeps putting up 28-30ppg seasons and would have played on very good teams while he was doing it. So I think he gets remembered differently(than Dantley is).
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Re: How good could have Bernard King have been if he hadn't injured his knee 

Post#25 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu May 12, 2022 7:55 pm

70sFan wrote:
Fair enough, I didn't try to imply that you overrate King - more than you underrate Dantley here :wink:


You know its still unbelievable to me that he got in at 55. I had to go back and see how that voting went and I saw he wasn't even on my ballot yet and that you didn't vote either but made a post about how even you wouldn't have had him that high on your list.
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Re: How good could have Bernard King have been if he hadn't injured his knee 

Post#26 » by 70sFan » Thu May 12, 2022 8:07 pm

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Fair enough, I didn't try to imply that you overrate King - more than you underrate Dantley here :wink:


You know its still unbelievable to me that he got in at 55. I had to go back and see how that voting went and I saw he wasn't even on my ballot yet and that you didn't vote either but made a post about how even you wouldn't have had him that high on your list.

He's probably not top 55 on my list, but he's definitely top 5 in my heart :D

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