Can you argue that Manu peaked higher than any SG other than Jordan/Wade/West?

ceiling raiser · Post #1 » by **ceiling raiser** » Fri May 13, 2022 3:51 am

Doctor MJ noted in another recent thread that he had Manu as the number one player in the world in 2005, so this got me thinking.

Other than the obvious candidates, how many 2 guards all time have peaked higher?

Ginobili at his best was a monster player, and has sadly been somewhat forgotten by history.

xb3at band1tx · Post #2 » by **xb3at band1tx** » Fri May 13, 2022 5:10 am

Drexler, maybe?

falcolombardi · Post #3 » by **falcolombardi** » Fri May 13, 2022 5:13 am

yes, but it wouldnt be a clear cut argument

drexler, mcgrady, vince carter, ray allen, reggie all have good arguments too over ginobili

and while he is not exactly in a good spot rep wise right now, harden probably has the fourth best sg peak imo

of course a lot of this discussion is tricky precisely because is hard to decide who is a sg vs a pg or a wing vs a shooting guard

edit: forgot kobe, harden is the 5th best sg peak then for me

Jaivl · Post #4 » by **Jaivl** » Fri May 13, 2022 5:14 am

Kobe...?

TheGOATRises007 · Post #5 » by **TheGOATRises007** » Fri May 13, 2022 5:39 am

Kobe and Harden definitely peaked higher than Manu did.

Matt15 · Post #6 » by **Matt15** » Fri May 13, 2022 5:46 am

Peak wise he has no case over Kobe that’s like taking peak Paul Pierce over Julius Erving. Harden and Drexler had a few years better than Peak Ginobili as well. Manu was a very good player but his peak is not Top 5 SG all-time worthy.

ardee · Post #7 » by **ardee** » Fri May 13, 2022 5:54 am

No you cannot lol.

Kobe and Harden exist.

Manu was a wonderful player but he was a 30 mpg regular season player. If he brought his Playoff level to the RS AND played 36-37 mpg, then yeah maybe you can begin to talk about him in that top 5ish category.

Also, he wasn't the best player in the world in 2005, not even close. He was probably no. 2 in the Playoffs, behind Nash, but in the RS he's behind Nash/Dirk/Duncan/KG/Shaq/Wade at least.

migya · Post #8 » by **migya** » Fri May 13, 2022 5:59 am

Ginobili's another darling on here. Might be that Spanish accent

He didn't do that well in 2004 when the Spurs needed him. It was only his second season but he was 26 years old. Robinson did better his second season and same age. Wade in his second session was much better and almost lead the Heat to a finals, losing in a tight seventh game in ECF.

Ginobili did well but had alltime great big Duncan next to him and some good players like Parker, Bowen, Barry, Horry and Malik Rose. Was perfect situation for someone with his skill set. Put in place of Wade on the Heat and he'd be nowhere near as seemingly good.

picko · Post #9 » by **picko** » Fri May 13, 2022 6:08 am

Drexler and Ginobili had a similar peak statistical resume but Drexler had a far more pivotal role for his team compared with Ginobili. The gap in minutes and role are just too great for me to say that Ginobili was the better player.

Eight-year peak:

Ginobili (2004-05 to 2011-12): 22.9 PER ~ 0.226 WS/48 ~ 6.9 BPM
Drexler (1987-88 to 1994-95): 22.3 PER ~ 0.198 WS/48 ~ 6.5 BPM

Lou Fan · Post #10 » by **Lou Fan** » Fri May 13, 2022 6:09 am

ceiling raiser wrote:Doctor MJ noted in another recent thread that he had Manu as the number one player in the world in 2005, so this got me thinking.

Other than the obvious candidates, how many 2 guards all time have peaked higher?

Ginobili at his best was a monster player, and has sadly been somewhat forgotten by history.

Can you link Doc's post?

70sFan · Post #11 » by **70sFan** » Fri May 13, 2022 6:34 am

Where is Kobe? Manu has no case over him. I wouldn't put him over Harden either, as much as I like Manu.

The rest could be arguable. Drexler, Miller, Jones, Moncrief all have the case over Manu though. I will also mention lesser known SG who had fantastic peak - Paul Westphal. Check him out.

Edit: also, McGrady. His 2003 season is clearly ahead.

Max123 · Post #12 » by **Max123** » Fri May 13, 2022 9:31 am

70sFan wrote:Where is Kobe? Manu has no case over him. I wouldn't put him over Harden either, as much as I like Manu.

The rest could be arguable. Drexler, Miller, Jones, Moncrief all have the case over Manu though. I will also mention lesser known SG who had fantastic peak - Paul Westphal. Check him out.

Edit: also, McGrady. His 2003 season is clearly ahead.

I know almost nothing about Paul Westphal but you got me interested. Would you mind describing his game at his peak shortly?

70sFan · Post #13 » by **70sFan** » Fri May 13, 2022 12:28 pm

Max123 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Where is Kobe? Manu has no case over him. I wouldn't put him over Harden either, as much as I like Manu.

The rest could be arguable. Drexler, Miller, Jones, Moncrief all have the case over Manu though. I will also mention lesser known SG who had fantastic peak - Paul Westphal. Check him out.

Edit: also, McGrady. His 2003 season is clearly ahead.

I know almost nothing about Paul Westphal but you got me interested. Would you mind describing his game at his peak shortly?

Very crafty offensive player without any notable weakness. Although listed as SG, he was usually the main ball-handler on his team. Solid size at 6'4 with great athleticism, both in terms of traditional measurements (very good leaper), but also with those Luka-esque deceleration and body control. Very solid passer and excellent shooter. You'd be happy to have him on any team.

The only concern with him is his short prime (1976-80) caused by injuries and relatively low minutes (but still higher than Manu). I have plans to make a video about him, he's very overlooked even on this board.

Dr Positivity · Post #14 » by **Dr Positivity** » Fri May 13, 2022 7:43 pm

You could argue per minute he is as good as a player like Drexler. When you add in minutes played, nah. And that's before getting to Kobe.

eminence · Post #15 » by **eminence** » Fri May 13, 2022 7:51 pm

If speaking NBA I think there’s a couple more mentioned in this thread.

If non-NBA, then I think you can argue him over those 3 too. Led Argentina to a damn gold medal.

ceiling raiser · Post #16 » by **ceiling raiser** » Fri May 13, 2022 8:23 pm

On a per minute basis I think Manu vs Kobe is a close discussion.

When durability is taken into account, I think Kobe is in the conversation with Wade and West.

Harden I have viewed as a point guard for whatever reason, even more so than West. That omission wasn't intentional.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #17 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Fri May 13, 2022 8:58 pm

I'm going to have to go against the grain here and say I wouldn't have 05 Manu in a top 10 sg peak. As good as he was in those playoffs I wouldn't judge a player's peak purely off of that and again he was only playing around 30mpg in a lot of those playoff series. I wouldn't say he was that close to being the best player in the world that year either. I'd have Sam Jones, Miller, Gervin and a few others all ahead of him. That's just me using the method I would use to judge a peak which has to be a combination of both rs and ps. I get that people will also use Manu's defense and fiba play to boost him but I also hold his low mpg against him somewhat. Just looking at the 05 finals he got sort of shut down after the first two games.