SotD: Shot Difficulty and Efficiency

[Los_29]

Fred and Gary rarely shoot at the rim, but they have to head toward it in order to shift the defense or draw fouls. Where the Raptors suffer a little is that Precious is bad here, as was Birch. They've addressed that they need a big that can put pressure on the rim, and they just don't have that with their line-ups. I think the chart is a little misleading because it implies that Fred and Gary are launching constant bricks and killing the offense, but they aren't. Gary's more comparable to a shooter like Desmond Bane (not as good, but similar role).

Players who take bad shots can also be good at them.

Our guys take bad shots and are bad at them.

You do know what your infographic shows right?

It's not showing overall shot quality and shot efficiency. Can I ask you why big men are predominantly on the right side of that infographic and why guards are on the left side of that infographic?

[Jcity08]

Fred and Gary bottom left while Scottie and Siakam top right tells you everything you need to know about this teams offense

Edit nvm that's AD not Siakam can't find Siakam

**** you're right. You can see the lakers jersey peeping out.

Damn Im searching but cant find Siakam, I think they obscured him with a bunch of other players on top.

[DelAbbot]

Fred and Gary bottom left while Scottie and Siakam top right tells you everything you need to know about this teams offense

Edit nvm that's AD not Siakam can't find Siakam

**** you're right. You can see the lakers jersey peeping out.

Damn Im searching but can find Siakam, I think they obscured him with a bunch of other players on top.

Who is blocking Westbrick?

[Los_29]

Fred and Gary rarely shoot at the rim, but they have to head toward it in order to shift the defense or draw fouls. Where the Raptors suffer a little is that Precious is bad here, as was Birch. They've addressed that they need a big that can put pressure on the rim, and they just don't have that with their line-ups. I think the chart is a little misleading because it implies that Fred and Gary are launching constant bricks and killing the offense, but they aren't. Gary's more comparable to a shooter like Desmond Bane (not as good, but similar role).

Players who take bad shots can also be good at them.

Our guys take bad shots and are bad at them.

And that's why they rarely take them. Fred only had 158 shots between 0-5 feet (50.6%) and Gary had 143 shots between 0-5 feet (52.4%). To put that into perspective, Jayson Tatum had 476 attempts, Trae Young had 350 attempts and Lamelo had 347 attempts.

You have to look at overall shot quality. It cannot be stressed enough the importance of showing the whole picture. Cherry picking data is just not going to contribute to a productive discussion because you know that most people aren't going to dig deeper. You can't name a thread "shot difficulty and efficiency" and not mention that it's solely about rim shot making and quality. There is no mention of what this infographic is actually showing. Not saying you did this intentionally but it really is important to not exclude important data. I can't stress it enough. It will just lead to richer and healthier discussion.

[TorontoRapsFan]

The rim shot quality label is kind of misleading. It should be difficulty. And even though Steelo has put difficulty in the title, I feel the 'quality' label is adding on the idea of good/bad decision making. The website's write up is:

"Our Shot Quality at Rim rating seeks to capture how difficult a player’s attempts at the rim were. We do so by incorporating multiple variables such as shot distance, the way a player got to their shot (dump off vs drive, etc.), the spacing of the lineups they are in, whether the shot was set up by a teammate or not, and the rim protecting abilities of the defensive team."

I don't think the stat alone is good enough to make judgment about IQ. The website's finishing at rim and getting to rim rating would add a lot to the story here. So far the negative view is FVV and GTJ take bad shots, and can't hit them. The positive view is they have low % because the game play requires them to take the most difficult shots. If this was last year or before I'd say yeah, the eye test tells you how often FVV drives into trees putting up bad layup attempts. But that wasn't the case this year. Obviously there were exceptions, but he was much better in decision making about his shots, and drives. Personally I think it's a combination of both mediocre finishing and having to take difficult shots due to offense. Neither GTJ or FVV are good at acrobatic finishes at the rim. And both of them have moments of being single minded. Add the Raptors style and I think that is a much better understanding of why they are as low as they are on this chart.

[Los_29]

The rim shot quality label is kind of misleading. It should be difficulty. And even though Steelo has put difficulty in the title, I feel the 'quality' label is adding on the idea of good/bad decision making. The website's write up is:

"Our Shot Quality at Rim rating seeks to capture how difficult a player’s attempts at the rim were. We do so by incorporating multiple variables such as shot distance, the way a player got to their shot (dump off vs drive, etc.), the spacing of the lineups they are in, whether the shot was set up by a teammate or not, and the rim protecting abilities of the defensive team."

I don't think the stat alone is good enough to make judgment about IQ. The website's finishing at rim and getting to rim rating would add a lot to the story here. So far the negative view is FVV and GTJ take bad shots, and can't hit them. The positive view is they have low % because the game play requires them to take the most difficult shots. If this was last year or before I'd say yeah, the eye test tells you how often FVV drives into trees putting up bad layup attempts. But that wasn't the case this year. Obviously there were exceptions, but he was much better in decision making about his shots, and drives. Personally I think it's a combination of both mediocre finishing and having to take difficult shots due to offense. Neither GTJ or FVV are good at acrobatic finishes at the rim. And both of them have moments of being single minded. Add the Raptors style and I think that is a much better understanding of why they are as low as they are on this chart.

Exactly and the problem here is people aren't digging deeper. Fred and Gary barely took shots at the rim. Tatum and Morant tripled them in attempts at the rim. Trae and Lamelo more than doubled their attempts and yet still shot in the low-mid 50's.

Wouldn't recognizing that you're not a great finisher therefore taking less shots at the rim point to how high your IQ is?

This thread is just hilarious.

[Syd-TK3]

I mean whether or not they barely took shots at the rim the fact that when they did take them they were extremely hard and not finishing still matters.

But maybe that's my personal preference of wishing we actually had some sorta guard that could attack the rim

[Courtside]

Fred and Gary bottom left while Scottie and Siakam top right tells you everything you need to know about this teams offense

Edit nvm that's AD not Siakam can't find Siakam

**** you're right. You can see the lakers jersey peeping out.

Damn Im searching but cant find Siakam, I think they obscured him with a bunch of other players on top.

Pascal is the white headband in the upper right most corner - basically the second best player on the chart, right there among Giannis and Lebron and Nikola and Joel and... Scottie! Here is the headshot they used, which is easy to find once you know what to look for. I think that's Jarrett Allen that is the only player in the corner beyond Pascal.



These are shots at the rim, though, so it's no wonder that the left side is dominated by guards and the right side is dominated by forwards and bigs.

[pingpongrac]

I mean whether or not they barely took shots at the rim the fact that when they did take them they were extremely hard and not finishing still matters.

But maybe that's my personal preference of wishing we actually had some sorta guard that could attack the rim

As TorontoRapsFan quoted from BBall Index on how they determine shot difficulty, it's not as simple as taking low IQ shots.

How did they get their shot off? For both FVV and GTJ, they typically create their own offence – especially inside the arc; 155 of FVV's 200 2FGM were unassisted (78%) and 142 of GTJ's 241 2FGM were unassisted (59%). Already, they're at a major disadvantage whereas the players on the right side are generally being spoon-fed easy buckets outside of a few outliers (Giannis, LeBron, Jokic, etc.).

How was the spacing? It was probably not very good considering both FVV and GTJ were very good three-point shooters for us while the rest of the team outside of OG was generally a collection of poor three-point shooting players; FVV+GTJ combined to make almost half of our total 3FGM (or ~7 per game they played) on 38% while our other main pieces (Siakam+Scottie+OG+Achiuwa+Boucher) combined for ~5 3FGM on 33%. That doesn't even include Svi+Flynn+Yuta+Banton+Birch+Thad making ~32% of their attempts either.

[Jcity08]

Fred and Gary bottom left while Scottie and Siakam top right tells you everything you need to know about this teams offense

Edit nvm that's AD not Siakam can't find Siakam

**** you're right. You can see the lakers jersey peeping out.

Damn Im searching but cant find Siakam, I think they obscured him with a bunch of other players on top.

Pascal is the white headband in the upper right most corner - basically the second best player on the chart, right there among Giannis and Lebron and Nikola and Joel and... Scottie! Here is the headshot they used, which is easy to find once you know what to look for. I think that's Jarrett Allen that is the only player in the corner beyond Pascal.



These are shots at the rim, though, so it's no wonder that the left side is dominated by guards and the right side is dominated by forwards and bigs.

Its AD, you can see his jersey peeking out behind Jokic.

And he has the same headband + fro.

[Madhouse]

**** you're right. You can see the lakers jersey peeping out.

Damn Im searching but cant find Siakam, I think they obscured him with a bunch of other players on top.

Pascal is the white headband in the upper right most corner - basically the second best player on the chart, right there among Giannis and Lebron and Nikola and Joel and... Scottie! Here is the headshot they used, which is easy to find once you know what to look for. I think that's Jarrett Allen that is the only player in the corner beyond Pascal.



These are shots at the rim, though, so it's no wonder that the left side is dominated by guards and the right side is dominated by forwards and bigs.

Its AD, you can see his jersey peeking out behind Jokic.

And he has the same headband + fro.

Great catch, lol. AD makes more sense that high up. but where is Siakam then?

[WaltFrazier]

Fred and Gary rarely shoot at the rim, but they have to head toward it in order to shift the defense or draw fouls. Where the Raptors suffer a little is that Precious is bad here, as was Birch. They've addressed that they need a big that can put pressure on the rim, and they just don't have that with their line-ups. I think the chart is a little misleading because it implies that Fred and Gary are launching constant bricks and killing the offense, but they aren't. Gary's more comparable to a shooter like Desmond Bane (not as good, but similar role).

"Addressed that they need a big that can pressure the rim"? Who addressed that? When? Addressed it how?

[vini_vidi_vici]

Damn, 2 guys jacking up ill advised shots, meanwhile Barnes in some elite company.

Jacking up shots? hes in the 18th percentile. this is a mod with 7K posts, embarrassing.

No wonder this place is awful, people cant even understand what they are reading, and are predictably negative about stats they dont comprehend.

I could rip these narratives apart, but its not even interesting. Most of the posters addressed the bigger issues, like the title being wrong. Yea, FVV/GTJ arent great at finishing at the rim, and thus limit the amount of shots they take at the rim, like all low IQ players. Not only that, but most of these finishes are predicated on transition/PnR and being ASTd on. If you primarily create for yourself, and not a rim finisher (FVV is uses his drives as an elite drive/kick player), youre already hurt immensely.



I guess Scottie is a low IQ player?? Ofcourse not, you like him. Not only is FVV taking hard shots, but hes elite at making them.

Would like to filter by shots being assisted (self created), but probably won't have that information for missed shot.

I wonder if we have a better finisher or lob threat, would that make our finishing better. But lack of spacing definitely contribute to poor finishing at rim by our guards.

89% of FVVs % of rim UnASTd (93rd percentile), GTJ in the 86th percentile. So yea, its not like the high IQ players who evidently get set up for their rim finishes.

To your point, and this is a much larger and productive discussion, its about our lack of gravity.

For those that wanted the plots with just Raps, Rim...


Overall Shots...


No surprise, FVV/GTJ/Spicy take the harder shots, and are the best shot makers as a whole.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Fred and Gary rarely shoot at the rim, but they have to head toward it in order to shift the defense or draw fouls. Where the Raptors suffer a little is that Precious is bad here, as was Birch. They've addressed that they need a big that can put pressure on the rim, and they just don't have that with their line-ups. I think the chart is a little misleading because it implies that Fred and Gary are launching constant bricks and killing the offense, but they aren't. Gary's more comparable to a shooter like Desmond Bane (not as good, but similar role).

"Addressed that they need a big that can pressure the rim"? Who addressed that? When? Addressed it how?

Nurse addressed it (who) in his post-season press conference (when) using his words (how).

"I think that probably lifts a little bit of pressure for guys like Fred (VanVleet) and Gary, OG, those guys that could get more open corner looks because of the pressure being put on the rim on the weak side," said Raptors coach Nick Nurse on the topic of adding a lob threat to a Raptors team that ranked 24th in the league in field goals in the restricted area.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Pascal is the white headband in the upper right most corner - basically the second best player on the chart, right there among Giannis and Lebron and Nikola and Joel and... Scottie! Here is the headshot they used, which is easy to find once you know what to look for. I think that's Jarrett Allen that is the only player in the corner beyond Pascal.



These are shots at the rim, though, so it's no wonder that the left side is dominated by guards and the right side is dominated by forwards and bigs.

Its AD, you can see his jersey peeking out behind Jokic.

And he has the same headband + fro.

Great catch, lol. AD makes more sense that high up. but where is Siakam then?

Siakam must be stuck behind Allen's giant Fro, then.

[ruckus]

Damn, 2 guys jacking up ill advised shots, meanwhile Barnes in some elite company.

Jacking up shots? hes in the 18th percentile. this is a mod with 7K posts, embarrassing.

No wonder this place is awful, people cant even understand what they are reading, and are predictably negative about stats they dont comprehend.

I could rip these narratives apart, but its not even interesting. Most of the posters addressed the bigger issues, like the title being wrong. Yea, FVV/GTJ arent great at finishing at the rim, and thus limit the amount of shots they take at the rim, like all low IQ players. Not only that, but most of these finishes are predicated on transition/PnR and being ASTd on. If you primarily create for yourself, and not a rim finisher (FVV is uses his drives as an elite drive/kick player), youre already hurt immensely.



I guess Scottie is a low IQ player?? Ofcourse not, you like him. Not only is FVV taking hard shots, but hes elite at making them.

Would like to filter by shots being assisted (self created), but probably won't have that information for missed shot.

I wonder if we have a better finisher or lob threat, would that make our finishing better. But lack of spacing definitely contribute to poor finishing at rim by our guards.

89% of FVVs % of rim UnASTd (93rd percentile), GTJ in the 86th percentile. So yea, its not like the high IQ players who evidently get set up for their rim finishes.

To your point, and this is a much larger and productive discussion, its about our lack of gravity.

For those that wanted the plots with just Raps, Rim...


Overall Shots...


No surprise, FVV/GTJ/Spicy take the harder shots, and are the best shot makers as a whole.

Mic drop

[Fairview4Life]

Before posting a statistic a user should be required to submit their interpretation of it to vvv for approval first.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Before posting a statistic a user should be required to submit their interpretation of it to vvv for approval first.

Or they could just read the x and y axis, but hey, maybe im asking for too much.

[Basketball_Jones]

Precious had a reeeaalllyy awful start to the season. I mean, post all star break I thought he was automatic on his finishes. Would be interesting to see how his numbers looked post all star break, I thought he was just incredible to finish the season.

[WaltFrazier]

Fred and Gary rarely shoot at the rim, but they have to head toward it in order to shift the defense or draw fouls. Where the Raptors suffer a little is that Precious is bad here, as was Birch. They've addressed that they need a big that can put pressure on the rim, and they just don't have that with their line-ups. I think the chart is a little misleading because it implies that Fred and Gary are launching constant bricks and killing the offense, but they aren't. Gary's more comparable to a shooter like Desmond Bane (not as good, but similar role).

"Addressed that they need a big that can pressure the rim"? Who addressed that? When? Addressed it how?

Nurse addressed it (who) in his post-season press conference (when) using his words (how).

"I think that probably lifts a little bit of pressure for guys like Fred (VanVleet) and Gary, OG, those guys that could get more open corner looks because of the pressure being put on the rim on the weak side," said Raptors coach Nick Nurse on the topic of adding a lob threat to a Raptors team that ranked 24th in the league in field goals in the restricted area.

Awesome, I hope it happens. Unlike all the no-center crowd here who don't think we need a big