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What do Championship Caliber teams have in common?

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Re: What do Championship Caliber teams have in common? 

Post#21 » by drsd » Sat May 14, 2022 9:47 am

tiderulz wrote:you dont really get to short cut. you typically go from the 2nd worst team in the league to fringe playoff team and continue to build from there. I dont think Orlando can do anything short of a superstar to make the 2nd round of the playoffs (Assuming you dont mean 1-past playin)


Where is the And-2 button?

Look at the teams that improved: Atlanta and Cleveland. Both went from horrible to OK. How did that happen? For both teams it was imroved guard play. And how does such a team go from OK to contender? Get better on defense.

So: Orlando needs to bet the house on either Fultz or Suggs getting better in 2022/23. And having the every individual member of the whole team to get better in their individual eFG%; without an exception. And then have a rock-solid team defense for 2023/24. Those are the rational targets for this team to make-noise from 2024, and onward.

These are achievable goals.


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Re: What do Championship Caliber teams have in common? 

Post#22 » by Skybox » Sat May 14, 2022 12:48 pm

drsd wrote:
tiderulz wrote:you dont really get to short cut. you typically go from the 2nd worst team in the league to fringe playoff team and continue to build from there. I dont think Orlando can do anything short of a superstar to make the 2nd round of the playoffs (Assuming you dont mean 1-past playin)


Where is the And-2 button?

Look at the teams that improved: Atlanta and Cleveland. Both went from horrible to OK. How did that happen? For both teams it was imroved guard play. And how does such a team go from OK to contender? Get better on defense.

So: Orlando needs to bet the house on either Fultz or Suggs getting better in 2022/23. And having the every individual member of the whole team to get better in their individual eFG%; without an exception. And then have a rock-solid team defense for 2023/24. Those are the rational targets for this team to make-noise from 2024, and onward.

These are achievable goals.


..


Agree...and some say ATL tried to skip steps and blew it...I don't see why that has to be true, they've still got (unrealized) good young guys with upside in Okongwu and Jalen Johnson and could look at moving Collins for a considerable return, Gallinari (most people's exhibit A for short-sightedness) is now a large expiring - I think not fully guaranteed also. They're not done...and ORL doesn't have to follow OKC's horrible model either.
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Re: What do Championship Caliber teams have in common? 

Post#23 » by pepe1991 » Sat May 14, 2022 1:05 pm

Skybox wrote:
drsd wrote:
tiderulz wrote:you dont really get to short cut. you typically go from the 2nd worst team in the league to fringe playoff team and continue to build from there. I dont think Orlando can do anything short of a superstar to make the 2nd round of the playoffs (Assuming you dont mean 1-past playin)


Where is the And-2 button?

Look at the teams that improved: Atlanta and Cleveland. Both went from horrible to OK. How did that happen? For both teams it was imroved guard play. And how does such a team go from OK to contender? Get better on defense.

So: Orlando needs to bet the house on either Fultz or Suggs getting better in 2022/23. And having the every individual member of the whole team to get better in their individual eFG%; without an exception. And then have a rock-solid team defense for 2023/24. Those are the rational targets for this team to make-noise from 2024, and onward.

These are achievable goals.


..


Agree...and some say ATL tried to skip steps and blew it...I don't see why that has to be true, they've still got (unrealized) good young guys with upside in Okongwu and Jalen Johnson and could look at moving Collins for a considerable return, Gallinari (most people's exhibit A for short-sightedness) is now a large expiring - I think not fully guaranteed also. They're not done...and ORL doesn't have to follow OKC's horrible model either.



I was always very low on Atlanta and their rebuild.However, let's add some facts into conversation.
Atlanta didn't want to do any of it. It's their main star, Trae Young, who said after year 2 of nba that he is sick of losing. After they lost 11th game in a row two years ago he made a scene in lockerooom and they had to promise him they will add help.

Same would happen to Bucks or Dallas if they tried to convice Giannis or Luka to "wait " .


Galinari is overpayed but isn't their problem. Their problem is roster structure. There was no reason to keep Okonwgu ( or pick in general) . Same with Jalen Johnson. They kept that bum Reddist for ages until he devalued into nothingness.
They also resigned Huerter for no reason, since Bogdanovic offers same , just does it better.

Once you plant your feet into max contract of player you drafted, your ceiling becomes his quality. For Trae that's entertaining team that probably , during normal season, can't pass second round of playoffs due his limitations.
On top of that Collins is overpayed AND doesn't fit roster structure around Trae .

If i'm Hawks i would look to build taller, strong roster around Trae. Something like Trae- Brogdon- Hunter-Jeremy Grant- Capela.
Add off bench Bogdanovic, Galo if you can't get rid of him, some bully like Morris twins and some rimrunning C like McGee. I think that roster would fit Trae way more than roster where majority of players , much like Trae, can't defend anybody and rely heavily on fast pace offense to produce points.
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Re: What do Championship Caliber teams have in common? 

Post#24 » by Skybox » Sat May 14, 2022 1:40 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Skybox wrote:
drsd wrote:
Where is the And-2 button?

Look at the teams that improved: Atlanta and Cleveland. Both went from horrible to OK. How did that happen? For both teams it was imroved guard play. And how does such a team go from OK to contender? Get better on defense.

So: Orlando needs to bet the house on either Fultz or Suggs getting better in 2022/23. And having the every individual member of the whole team to get better in their individual eFG%; without an exception. And then have a rock-solid team defense for 2023/24. Those are the rational targets for this team to make-noise from 2024, and onward.

These are achievable goals.


..


Agree...and some say ATL tried to skip steps and blew it...I don't see why that has to be true, they've still got (unrealized) good young guys with upside in Okongwu and Jalen Johnson and could look at moving Collins for a considerable return, Gallinari (most people's exhibit A for short-sightedness) is now a large expiring - I think not fully guaranteed also. They're not done...and ORL doesn't have to follow OKC's horrible model either.



I was always very low on Atlanta and their rebuild.However, let's add some facts into conversation.
Atlanta didn't want to do any of it. It's their main star, Trae Young, who said after year 2 of nba that he is sick of losing. After they lost 11th game in a row two years ago he made a scene in lockerooom and they had to promise him they will add help.

Same would happen to Bucks or Dallas if they tried to convice Giannis or Luka to "wait " .


Galinari is overpayed but isn't their problem. Their problem is roster structure. There was no reason to keep Okonwgu ( or pick in general) . Same with Jalen Johnson. They kept that bum Reddist for ages until he devalued into nothingness.
They also resigned Huerter for no reason, since Bogdanovic offers same , just does it better.

Once you plant your feet into max contract of player you drafted, your ceiling becomes his quality. For Trae that's entertaining team that probably , during normal season, can't pass second round of playoffs due his limitations.
On top of that Collins is overpayed AND doesn't fit roster structure around Trae .

If i'm Hawks i would look to build taller, strong roster around Trae. Something like Trae- Brogdon- Hunter-Jeremy Grant- Capela.
Add off bench Bogdanovic, Galo if you can't get rid of him, some bully like Morris twins and some rimrunning C like McGee. I think that roster would fit Trae way more than roster where majority of players , much like Trae, can't defend anybody and rely heavily on fast pace offense to produce points.


I would welcome a young guy who is SICK OF LOSING regardless of the team's present situation/long term plan/trajectory...it's certainly sweet that we get to hear how they all get along and play video games together but I'd doubt you'd get that from Michael Jordan, Jimmy Butler, Ja, or Draymond. I don't want nice, patient players, who see the big picture...the FO has a master plan and longer term perspective, players should live and die with every game. For the greats, even practices were not to be taken lightly.
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Re: What do Championship Caliber teams have in common? 

Post#25 » by Skybox » Sat May 14, 2022 1:52 pm

Skybox wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Skybox wrote:
Agree...and some say ATL tried to skip steps and blew it...I don't see why that has to be true, they've still got (unrealized) good young guys with upside in Okongwu and Jalen Johnson and could look at moving Collins for a considerable return, Gallinari (most people's exhibit A for short-sightedness) is now a large expiring - I think not fully guaranteed also. They're not done...and ORL doesn't have to follow OKC's horrible model either.



I was always very low on Atlanta and their rebuild.However, let's add some facts into conversation.
Atlanta didn't want to do any of it. It's their main star, Trae Young, who said after year 2 of nba that he is sick of losing. After they lost 11th game in a row two years ago he made a scene in lockerooom and they had to promise him they will add help.

Same would happen to Bucks or Dallas if they tried to convice Giannis or Luka to "wait " .


Galinari is overpayed but isn't their problem. Their problem is roster structure. There was no reason to keep Okonwgu ( or pick in general) . Same with Jalen Johnson. They kept that bum Reddist for ages until he devalued into nothingness.
They also resigned Huerter for no reason, since Bogdanovic offers same , just does it better.

Once you plant your feet into max contract of player you drafted, your ceiling becomes his quality. For Trae that's entertaining team that probably , during normal season, can't pass second round of playoffs due his limitations.
On top of that Collins is overpayed AND doesn't fit roster structure around Trae .

If i'm Hawks i would look to build taller, strong roster around Trae. Something like Trae- Brogdon- Hunter-Jeremy Grant- Capela.
Add off bench Bogdanovic, Galo if you can't get rid of him, some bully like Morris twins and some rimrunning C like McGee. I think that roster would fit Trae way more than roster where majority of players , much like Trae, can't defend anybody and rely heavily on fast pace offense to produce points.





I would welcome a young guy who is SICK OF LOSING regardless of the team's present situation/long term plan/trajectory...it's certainly sweet that we get to hear how they all get along and play video games together but I'd doubt you'd get that from Michael Jordan, Jimmy Butler, Ja, or Draymond. I don't want nice, patient players, who see the big picture...the FO has a master plan and longer term perspective, players should live and die with every game. For the greats, even practices were not to be taken lightly.


I would add that I would welcome being held accountable by a young star. "Stop screwing around and build a winner or I'm out first opportunity". That's why MIA kills every year...Riley has no patience and his staff has the talent to get it done. Like **** Steve Jobs demanding features that are "impossible" from his design team-they cursed him, then got it done. I've employed Marketers for years and routinely told them that I want to be scared of them or, at least, scared of life without them. They should strive to be able to demand a raise and not have me have to think about it or laugh at them...This is how NBA FA recruiting used to be-teams would decorate the facility, have dumb videos from local celebrities, bags of cash of course...but, most importantly, lay out a plan for how the franchise would be built to maximize their success and contend....I see that crazy competitiveness in Donovan Mitchell, who I understand is not a complete 2-way player but I feel is a fierce competitor and could be an emotional leader.
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Re: What do Championship Caliber teams have in common? 

Post#26 » by magickingdom » Sat May 14, 2022 4:09 pm

I’m think when there is no expectation on you, like last year, you don’t play with that edge. You want to win, but if you don’t, somebody got better and that was a emotional win.
I’m hoping that next year that is all gone.
They need to be expected to win and held accountable. There has to be ramifications for not playing to win from now on.
They got their year to gel and know what they need to work in this summer. Not it’s time to show up and play. Also to know that if your not going to help the team win, you might not stick around.
Play time is over, now it’s time to get to serious work!
I hoping that just that mental change and everyone getting better, should make for a better year next season.
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Re: What do Championship Caliber teams have in common? 

Post#27 » by drsd » Sat May 14, 2022 4:35 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Once you plant your feet into max contract of player you drafted, your ceiling becomes his quality. For Trae that's entertaining team that probably , during normal season, can't pass second round of playoffs due his limitations.


You might as well be describing Dominique "the Human Highlight Film" Wilkins.

82 Lost E. Conf. 1st Rnd
83 Lost E. Conf. 1st Rnd
84 missed playoffs
85 Lost E. Conf. Semis
86 Lost E. Conf. Semis
87 Lost E. Conf. Semis
88 Lost E. Conf. 1st Rnd
89 missed playoffs
90 Lost E. Conf. 1st Rnd
91 missed playoffs
92 Lost E. Conf. 1st Rnd
93 Lost E. Conf. 1st Rnd



Does anyone seriously believe Mr. Young's playoff career will look much different than Mr. Wilkins?


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Re: What do Championship Caliber teams have in common? 

Post#28 » by drsd » Sat May 14, 2022 4:38 pm

Skybox wrote:I would welcome a young guy who is SICK OF LOSING regardless of the team's present situation/long term plan/trajectory...it's certainly sweet that we get to hear how they all get along and play video games together but I'd doubt you'd get that from Michael Jordan, Jimmy Butler, Ja, or Draymond. I don't want nice, patient players, who see the big picture...the FO has a master plan and longer term perspective, players should live and die with every game. For the greats, even practices were not to be taken lightly.


If Young was seriously "SICK OF LOSING", he would learn how to play defense.

What do three of your players have in common: Michael Jordan, Jimmy Butler, or Draymond? They all play(ed) defense.
(( Morant's defensive liabilities are hidden by his roster; but he should also look close at his reflection in the mirror and commit to defense. ))


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Re: What do Championship Caliber teams have in common? 

Post#29 » by Skybox » Sat May 14, 2022 9:08 pm

drsd wrote:
Skybox wrote:I would welcome a young guy who is SICK OF LOSING regardless of the team's present situation/long term plan/trajectory...it's certainly sweet that we get to hear how they all get along and play video games together but I'd doubt you'd get that from Michael Jordan, Jimmy Butler, Ja, or Draymond. I don't want nice, patient players, who see the big picture...the FO has a master plan and longer term perspective, players should live and die with every game. For the greats, even practices were not to be taken lightly.


If Young was seriously "SICK OF LOSING", he would learn how to play defense.

What do three of your players have in common: Michael Jordan, Jimmy Butler, or Draymond? They all play(ed) defense.
(( Morant's defensive liabilities are hidden by his roster; but he should also look close at his reflection in the mirror and commit to defense. ))


..



So, if Draymond really cared…he would learn to dribble better?

Trae is a savage who, on a nightly basis, puts that team on his back - from the day he came in the NBA. He’s small and not the most athletic…he’ll never be an exceptional defender but he’s definitely an exceptional player. Maybe he IS working hard on his defense…or maybe he understands how he can best help his team win.
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Re: What do Championship Caliber teams have in common? 

Post#30 » by drsd » Sat May 14, 2022 11:55 pm

Skybox wrote:Trae is a savage who, on a nightly basis, puts that team on his back - from the day he came in the NBA.


As was Dominique "the Human Highlight Film" Wilkins.


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