2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[MartinToVaught]

How do you guys feel as far as Giannis being the best player in the league after this series? Still on board with it?

Tbh I find that all the contenders for that title have disappointed me to varying degrees in these playoffs.

Still firmly on board. This series was not on Giannis. The only other contenders are Jokic and a healthy Kawhi, IMO.

[Texas Chuck]

Ugh. If Dallas doesn't win tonight there is not a single team left in the playoffs anyone can actually root for. What an unlikable 3 of the final 4 teams and the Suns aren't any better.

Dallas has to win to save the NBA.

So, I get that a bunch of smart people hear don't like the Warriors, but you do realize they are very popular amongst the "anyones" of the basketball world, right?

Doc I'm speaking only for myself. I thought that was abundantly clear how tongue in cheek I was being.

But since not, I understand full well that the Warriors and Celtics are very popular teams and that the NBA is probably rooting for that exact matchup.

[falcolombardi]

i feel like it really needs to be remindes that boston was held fairly below their regular season offense

bucks defense performed really well, but we have game 7 fresh in our minds right now

[MyUniBroDavis]

How do you guys feel as far as Giannis being the best player in the league after this series? Still on board with it?

Tbh I find that all the contenders for that title have disappointed me to varying degrees in these playoffs.

It’s pretty much between him and jokic, and both of them have a thing where a certain matchup makes him way worse on one side of the floor

I’d still have giannis, given the load he carried he was still great, and this Celtics team was ridiculously well equipped at defending him. Basically while obviously his defense I obviously isn’t as impactful as jokic’s offense, I think the drop in his offense isn’t as important as the drop to jokic’s defense. Beyond that I do think when you have The type of run giannis did last year, to take that title you have to have one of your own.

I expect bron to do something next years playoffs if their offseason goes well though lol

[MartinToVaught]

their antiquated defensive plan was working incredblly well during the series (and last playoffs)

they, however, were too late to switch tactics when brook started to struggle in closing out to the corner in the 3rd quarter

in hindsight if they go small in the third quarter the game may have stayed within reach

but at the end of the day theie defense was great overall in the series, it was everyone but giannis offense that left bucks down (hence, the hurting absence of middletom to raise the offensive floor with his iso game)

Conceding wide-open threes to modern NBA players is a really stupid gamble even if you get lucky a few times in a series.

the idea is to focus on the paint and corner 3's and domt worry abouy average shooters shooting above the break

it works more often that it doesnt as evidenced by the fact bucks defense held boston fairly beloe their average scoring

it backfired this game (and bud was too late to realize it) but defense was not why bucks lost this series but their weak offense

It was always going to backfire at some point. Now, they probably would have gotten away with it if Middleton was playing and raising their margin of error. But without him, it was only a matter of time before they let the Celtics heat up like they did today, and they were screwed.

It's a fine strategy for 1992. Not so much in 2022. Even average shooters can look like unstoppable for a game if you keep giving them wide-open shots.

[70sFan]

There isnt anything unlikeable about Brook, Pat, Wes.... but theyre just there. Not likeable or unlikeable. Dont standout

How dare you, Brook is the coolest basketball player on the planet

[Doctor MJ]

I've been harping on the fact the Bucks' strategy focuses on protecting the interior and daring teams to beat them from 3.

As we look at the data from this series through the lens of the regular season:

In the regular season, Boston shots 37.1 3's per game on 35.6% shooting, placing them at 1.6 more 3's per game than league average and slightly above average %.

In the regular season, Milwaukee allowed 40.6 3's per game on 35.6% shooting, thus allowing 5.4 more 3's per game than league average with slightly below average in %.

In this series, Boston shot 41.7 3's per game on 37.6% shooting.

They obviously could have won the series if Boston's D wasn't so good, but yeah there's still an exploit in the Bucks' defensive strategy able to be exploited if you have enough skill.

how was their offense compared to regular season?

i think bucks defense discussion is a red herring when boston struggled to score this series, the series was lost by their offense

essentislly reverse nets series where brooklyn offense scored well but their defense got them swept

I'll have to wait to see the end ORtg for the Celtics but:

After 6 games, the Celtics had an ORtg of 109.5, which was 4.9 below their average for the year. It'll surely go up after today, but probably not enough to make it a bad defensive performance in the absolute sense, or a bad performance relative the Bucks' RS levels.

But remember, after the Bulls series, the Bucks' D looked plenty elite again.

The Bulls had a mere 95.3 ORtg against the Bucks, which was 17.9 below their regular season average.

And let's note that the Bulls were last in the league in 3PA & 3Pr this season. They were basically the best case scenario for the Bucks' D, and when they instead went up against a Top 10-ish level 3-team, we saw the exploits.

As I said, Bucks still could have won if they scored more points, but I don't think anyone should doubt that the Bucks' defense isn't geared to stop a 3-point assault and that makes them vulnerable against the (rising number of) teams that could successfully mount one.

[mikejames23]

As far as the Bucks future, I wouldn't change much about the roster at all. It's pretty clear they'd have won had Middleton played in the series.

Giannis is still the best IMO. A little better than Jokic due to his advantage as a interior defender. Curry is a bit behind both as he's 34 and has more off nights, while Tatum isn't quite the best player in the league, but he's certainly proving himself to be borderline Top 5.

I am down to watch Luka vs Suns tonight. Quite entertaining.

[eminence]

My gut reaction is that Jokic keeps his lead over Giannis in my POY standings with Giannis going out. Don't really see Tatum passing Giannis with this one though.

Other initial reactions?

[70sFan]

Conceding wide-open threes to modern NBA players is a really stupid gamble even if you get lucky a few times in a series.

the idea is to focus on the paint and corner 3's and domt worry abouy average shooters shooting above the break

it works more often that it doesnt as evidenced by the fact bucks defense held boston fairly beloe their average scoring

it backfired this game (and bud was too late to realize it) but defense was not why bucks lost this series but their weak offense

It was always going to backfire at some point. Now, they probably would have gotten away with it if Middleton was playing and raising their margin of error. But without him, it was only a matter of time before they let the Celtics heat up like they did today, and they were screwed.

It's a fine strategy for 1992. Not so much in 2022.

Bucks stopped Celtics offense 6 points per100 below their RS average. Their defense wasn't a problem, the problem was that they couldn't score against Boston's defense.

[MyUniBroDavis]

How do you guys feel as far as Giannis being the best player in the league after this series? Still on board with it?

Tbh I find that all the contenders for that title have disappointed me to varying degrees in these playoffs.

It has to be Giannis or Jokic no one else is close. We're too used to to a Goat in Bron being the best so now in naturally we'll be more disappointed by the next best since they wont hold a candle to him w/ much more weaknesses to their game. But theyre still great in their own right

That’s kinda where I’m at to. It almost feels wrong to crown a guy after showing clear weaknesses and struggles at times, but no one’s exactly just dominating across the board to the extent that LeBron did, so it has to be either Giannis or Jokic. Scoring on 51.6% TS, turning it over 5.1 times a game, and generally just struggling to impose himself against an older Horford all leave a bad taste in my mouth though.

I think there was a point in time where with bron the only thing that could stop him was getting hurt.

I honestly think 2020 bron is better than both as a player still, and I don’t think a resurgence is out of the question

[MartinToVaught]

the idea is to focus on the paint and corner 3's and domt worry abouy average shooters shooting above the break

it works more often that it doesnt as evidenced by the fact bucks defense held boston fairly beloe their average scoring

it backfired this game (and bud was too late to realize it) but defense was not why bucks lost this series but their weak offense

It was always going to backfire at some point. Now, they probably would have gotten away with it if Middleton was playing and raising their margin of error. But without him, it was only a matter of time before they let the Celtics heat up like they did today, and they were screwed.

It's a fine strategy for 1992. Not so much in 2022.

Bucks stopped Celtics offense 6 points per100 below their RS average. Their defense wasn't a problem, the problem was that they couldn't score against Boston's defense.

How'd it work out for them today with the season on the line? I still think that defensive system is just tempting fate in a seven-game series.

[70sFan]

I've been harping on the fact the Bucks' strategy focuses on protecting the interior and daring teams to beat them from 3.

As we look at the data from this series through the lens of the regular season:

In the regular season, Boston shots 37.1 3's per game on 35.6% shooting, placing them at 1.6 more 3's per game than league average and slightly above average %.

In the regular season, Milwaukee allowed 40.6 3's per game on 35.6% shooting, thus allowing 5.4 more 3's per game than league average with slightly below average in %.

In this series, Boston shot 41.7 3's per game on 37.6% shooting.

They obviously could have won the series if Boston's D wasn't so good, but yeah there's still an exploit in the Bucks' defensive strategy able to be exploited if you have enough skill.

how was their offense compared to regular season?

i think bucks defense discussion is a red herring when boston struggled to score this series, the series was lost by their offense

essentislly reverse nets series where brooklyn offense scored well but their defense got them swept

I'll have to wait to see the end ORtg for the Celtics but:

After 6 games, the Celtics had an ORtg of 109.5, which was 4.9 below their average for the year. It'll surely go up after today, but probably not enough to make it a bad defensive performance in the absolute sense, or a bad performance relative the Bucks' RS levels.

But remember, after the Bulls series, the Bucks' D looked plenty elite again.

The Bulls had a mere 95.3 ORtg against the Bucks, which was 17.9 below their regular season average.

And let's note that the Bulls were last in the league in 3PA & 3Pr this season. They were basically the best case scenario for the Bucks' D, and when they instead went up against a Top 10-ish level 3-team, we saw the exploits.

As I said, Bucks still could have won if they scored more points, but I don't think anyone should doubt that the Bucks' defense isn't geared to stop a 3-point assault and that makes them vulnerable against the (rising number of) teams that could successfully mount one.

Celtics had 108.8 ORtg in that series via nba.com

That's -5.6 defense for the Bucks. That's also 3 points per100 worse than what Bucks allowed in RS (granted, without Lopez for full season).

Again, I don't see how this series proves anything about Bucks defense. Other than it is not enough when Bucks are playing at 99.7 ORtg level on the other end of the floor.

Seriously, how can anybody say anything negative about Bucks defense? It was the only thing that kept them in the series, they literally had one good offensive game in the whole series.

[70sFan]

It was always going to backfire at some point. Now, they probably would have gotten away with it if Middleton was playing and raising their margin of error. But without him, it was only a matter of time before they let the Celtics heat up like they did today, and they were screwed.

It's a fine strategy for 1992. Not so much in 2022.

Bucks stopped Celtics offense 6 points per100 below their RS average. Their defense wasn't a problem, the problem was that they couldn't score against Boston's defense.

How'd it work out for them today with the season on the line? I still think that defensive system is just tempting fate in a seven-game series.

You want to know how? Boston had 113.7 ORtg in game 7, which is worse than their RS average. Guess what though - Bucks had 100.0 ORtg and that's the reason of blowout.

Celtics offense wasn't unstoppable at all in that game.

[TheGOATRises007]

The Bucks' offense was putrid all series.

I thought they learned last season when they stopped having Giannis constantly attack at the top of the key that just ends up wearing him out.

Whenever they used a Jrue/Giannis PNR, it always led to good possessions.

They went back to their old bad habits.

[MartinToVaught]

Bucks stopped Celtics offense 6 points per100 below their RS average. Their defense wasn't a problem, the problem was that they couldn't score against Boston's defense.

How'd it work out for them today with the season on the line? I still think that defensive system is just tempting fate in a seven-game series.

You want to know how? Boston had 113.7 ORtg in game 7, which is worse than their RS average. Guess what though - Bucks had 100.0 ORtg and that's the reason of blowout.

Celtics offense wasn't unstoppable at all in that game.

The Celtics made 22 threes to the Bucks' 4. And Bud's defensive system made it very easy for them to make those shots. That was the game right there. I don't see how this is a vindication, not an indictment, of Bud's system despite the ORtg.

[Peregrine01]

Marcus Smart on Giannis changed this whole series. Opened up the entire floor on offense and it turned out he was their best defender on Giannis anyway.

Dpoy

But he isnt a better Giannis defender than Grant and Horford

Grant has an argument. But Horford gets beat a lot when Giannis has a running start. Also have to consider Smart's defense on Giannis within a team context. He could hold his own with Giannis getting to the rim, leaving the Celts' bigs to clean up the boards.

[GSP]

The Bucks' offense was putrid all series.

I thought they learned last season when they stopped having Giannis constantly attack at the top of the key that just ends up wearing him out.

Whenever they used a Jrue/Giannis PNR, it always led to good possessions.

They went back to their old bad habits.

We started switching it more with Smart and they couldnt do it as effectively. That play was mainly automatic whenever we switched with Jaylen as Giannis barely missed against him. Also whoever was guarding Jrue gave him more space so we could play the pass on the roll which we got some turnovers on so Jrue was forced to shoot more off the dribble which is where they missed Khris whos their best off dribble creator/shooter by miles. Tatum on Jrue was a big adjustment there too since he can switch to Giannis but if Jaylen was guarding Jrue as the handler hed get abused by Giannis or screened off

[70sFan]

How'd it work out for them today with the season on the line? I still think that defensive system is just tempting fate in a seven-game series.

You want to know how? Boston had 113.7 ORtg in game 7, which is worse than their RS average. Guess what though - Bucks had 100.0 ORtg and that's the reason of blowout.

Celtics offense wasn't unstoppable at all in that game.

The Celtics made 22 threes to the Bucks' 4. And Bud's defensive system made it very easy for them to make those shots. That was the game right there. I don't see how this is a vindication, not an indictment, of Bud's system despite the ORtg.

You miss one small point:

- in RS, Celtics took 50.3 2PA on average and made 54.7% of them,
- in game 7, Celtics took 33 2PA and made 45.5% of them.

Yeah, Celtics took a lot of threes and they made them on unusually high rate. It didn't lead to efficient offense though. It was league average offense, despite making 22 threes. The truth is that you can live even with such a hot shooting night as long as your opponent can't create any shots at the rim.

Bucks making only 4 threes had nothing to do with their defense. Their offense was terrible throughout the whole series and that's the reason why they lost. I really don't understand how you can criticize their defense when their offense was all-time bad.

[MartinToVaught]

You want to know how? Boston had 113.7 ORtg in game 7, which is worse than their RS average. Guess what though - Bucks had 100.0 ORtg and that's the reason of blowout.

Celtics offense wasn't unstoppable at all in that game.

The Celtics made 22 threes to the Bucks' 4. And Bud's defensive system made it very easy for them to make those shots. That was the game right there. I don't see how this is a vindication, not an indictment, of Bud's system despite the ORtg.

You miss one small point:

- in RS, Celtics took 50.3 2PA on average and made 54.7% of them,
- in game 7, Celtics took 33 2PA and made 45.5% of them.

Yeah, Celtics took a lot of threes and they made them on unusually high rate. It didn't lead to efficient offense though. It was league average offense, despite making 22 threes. The truth is that you can live even with such a hot shooting night as long as your opponent can't create any shots at the rim.

Bucks making only 4 threes had nothing to do with their defense. Their offense was terrible throughout the whole series and that's the reason why they lost. I really don't understand how you can criticize their defense when their offense was all-time bad.

The Bucks' offense was always going to take a huge hit without Middleton. There was no getting around that no matter what. The least Bud could have done was not put another obstacle in the way of his own team by conceding a ton of wide-open threes when it was going to be hard enough already for them to win the series.