[Windhorst] Pascal Siakam Potentially Could Be Available For The Right Trade

[Psubs]

Siakam for Ayton (S&T) sounds kind of possible and fit for both teams.

Phoenix's timeline is now and they could use a #2 scorer that plays PF.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

That's the thing though, they aren't a much better team this year. They only won 3 more games and their best players played a lot more games than our best players. A LOT more. We also played a 20 year old rookie 35 minutes a night. Scottie hasn't even scratched the surface of what he can do. He's going to improve a lot more than anyone on the Celtics.

In the first couple of months the Celtics were borderline unwatchable. Tatum and Brown were playing way too much hero ball. Their offense had zero flow. They got that sorted out because they had to. If they didn't they would have been in the play-in. But that ability to get back to that brand of basketball has appeared at times in the playoffs and luckily for them the shorthanded Bucks weren't able to capitalize. The NBA is wide open now. I can't recall a time where it was this wide open. You just had the Mavs beat the Suns, Golden State has advanced to the WCF after missing the playoffs last year. Celtics were awful for a third of the year and the Heat got swept in embarrassing fashion by the Bucks last year. And yet these are the final four teams. No one had these teams in the final four at the beginning of the year. No one.

In 2020 the Celtics had Kemba Walker who averaged 20/5/4 in the playoffs that year and they still went 7 games with us despite Pascal having his struggles in the bubble and us trotting out a couple past their prime players in Ibaka and Gasol. Gasol is now retired and Ibaka doesn't play.

You also need to consider that the Celtics would've lost against the Bucks if Middleton played. They barely squeaked past them. What happened when the Sixers played without Simmons two years ago? They got bounced in the first round. What happened when the Celtics played without Brown last year? They got bounced in the first round. And yet this Bucks team took the Celtics to 7 without Middleton. I'm not saying we would beat the Celtics or that we would be favourites against them but if both teams are healthy we likely give them a good series just like we did 18 months ago. Tatum and Brown have improved but so has OG, Fred, Pascal.

i honestly think you're doing the Bucks a diservice by saying that the Celtics barely beat them (because the reasoning is that the Celtics aren't good... which isn't true). Bucks have had the best defense so far in the playoffs based on defensive rating. I would go and say that Raptors would have lost to the Bucks even if they didn't have Middleton.

Raptors struggle mightly in the playoffs because they can not efficiently and consistenly get their office going at all.

Celtics have much better half court execution than than the Raptors.

even if you don't think the Boston is that much better than the Raptors, they still are better, this year. even if we gave them a good series. and i already said that the Raptors would be a good matchup for them.

would definitely change the narrative if the Celtics somehow won the championship this year though.

I’m not doing any team a disservice. I’m just stating facts. Bucks were without their second best player. With Middleton they beat the Celtics. I don’t think anyone would disagree with this. We’re not talking about a guy like Alex Caruso or Lonzo Ball. We are talking about a 3 time all-star and NBA champion who averaged a ridiculous 24/8/6 in the playoffs last year.

I’m also not saying the Celtics aren’t a good team. They are but the reality is they caught a huge break just like the Bucks and Suns did last year, how we did in 2019 etc.

You have no idea if this team struggles offensively in the playoffs because we were never healthy. Fred wasn’t healthy from day 1, Scottie missed three games, GTJ was sick for the opening two games. Celtics got steamrolled by the Nets in 5 games last year. Why do you think that is? It’s because their 2nd best player was hurt. I watched that series and the Celtics looked absolutely awful. But you can’t draw any conclusions from it because like us, they were without some very important pieces.

And aren’t we discussing how the Raptors aren’t that far behind the Celtics? This isn’t a discussion about half court offense.

And yes the Celtics are better. Three wins better while being much healthier throughout the year. They do have more depth though and I believe as a result are better built for the playoffs. But considering they were in it to win it all year and we were in a transition year that’s to be expected. I also see no reason why Scottie, Precious and Gary Trent Jr can’t make improvements to their game next year. Who is improving for the Celtics? I’m a huge Grant Williams fan but coming out of the draft he was seen as an NBA ready but low upside player. They’ll likely improve just from having more experience with each other but I don’t see any of their guys making the kind of leaps that Scottie will be making and Precious. That alone will help close the gap.

There is a lot of recency bias here. Celtics are a great team but make no mistake about it, the Celtics would be in Cancun right now if Middleton was healthy.

first you can't say its facts when its your opinion of the Bucks beating them with a healhty Middleton. its probable but its not facts.

We weren’t a good team offensively all year long. With a healthy or hurt FVV … half court offense wasn’t good. Raptors were definitely buoyed by their transition offense all year long.

[720]

Siakam for Ayton (S&T) sounds kind of possible and fit for both teams.

Phoenix's timeline is now and they could use a #2 scorer that plays PF.

We should be getting something more back in addition to Ayton if we’re gifting them Siakam.

[Psubs]

Siakam for Ayton (S&T) sounds kind of possible and fit for both teams.

Phoenix's timeline is now and they could use a #2 scorer that plays PF.

We should be getting something more back in addition to Ayton if we’re gifting them Siakam.

I have Ayton, Crowder (filler) and as many 1st picks as it takes.

[720]

Phoenix's timeline is now and they could use a #2 scorer that plays PF.

We should be getting something more back in addition to Ayton if we’re gifting them Siakam.

I have Ayton, Crowder (filler) and as many 1st picks as it takes.

If they can give us a couple 1st’s (one being a swap thrown in to make it work) around the time this theoretical core of Siakam,CP3, and Booker decline (maybe 2-3 more years?). That might be worth thinking about because those are high value picks. Even for future trades with other teams.

[KrazyP]

Raptors fans didn’t learn that regular season wins mean little in the playoffs after the Demar and Kyle debacles.

Look at Phoenix.

Regular season wins mean little anymore. Boston would wipe the floor with us.

And last year you probably would have been saying Phoenix was an example of how to build a contender by tanking. Hot take after hot take, knee jerk reaction after knee jerk reaction.

Certain posters still dont seem to understand that the ride to the 2019 championship actually started in 2013.

Winning culture actually breeds better player development. Better player development helps increase the value of your assets. This in turn actually gives competitive teams the assets necessary to make a big move and still have adequate depth necessary to win.

Exposing guys like Siakam, OG, VanVleet, Powell, etc early actually turned them into better players and assets. A guy like OG could have easily turned into the next Stanley Johnson in a TWO environment. Powell could have easily bounced out of the NBA. VanVleet probably would have turned into a journeymen instead of an all-star. Even a vet like Kyle Lowry benefited from those "debacles"....he got better as a lead guard every year. All that development was vital to the eventual 2019 championship run.

There is inherent value in being competitive. Ujiri/Webster/Nurse all seem to understand this even though there are many posters on this forum that dont.

Most posters who actually realize what is going on know that Masai is thanking the stars Zaza hurt Kawhi otherwise it would have been Pascal, Jak, Demar, Fred, 3 first founders and more for Kawhi.

If the Kawhi trade doesnt happen, the Raps team was still STACKED and ready to make a big move.

Kyle Lowry
Demar Derozan
Pascal Siakam - on the cusp of becoming a star/2nd scoring option the team needed - it took time
Jonas Valanciunas
Fred VanVleet
Norm Powell
Serge ibaka
Delon Wright
Jakob Poeltl
OG Anunoby
Own ALL 1st round picks

Yes. Thats a well built team loaded with young assets.

Jimmy Butler was traded to the 76ers that same year for Robert Covington, Dario Saric and a pick. The Raps could have easily outbid them and might have even convinced Butler to stay.

Heck, if you just flip JV for Gasol on the team above, theres a chance they could have been the bubble champs.....niether the Heat or Lakers that year were that good. A 2nd scorer like Siakam and a vet glue guy like Gasol were the ingredients the Lowry/Derozan teams needed for years. The coaching change from Nurse to Casey also made a massive difference.

When you build well, it increases your asset base and opens up flexibility. A LOT can happen in the NBA....much of which is unpredictable.

People who think the 2019 championship was ALL Kawhi and ONLY Kawhi suffer from narrow minded tunnel vision. A trade for Kawhi would have been completely irrelevant if it wasnt for the years of team building, player development and the winning culture that preceded it.

[KrazyP]

Siakam for Ayton (S&T) sounds kind of possible and fit for both teams.

Phoenix's timeline is now and they could use a #2 scorer that plays PF.

We should be getting something more back in addition to Ayton if we’re gifting them Siakam.

I'm not a part of the Siakam should be traded immediately crowd but a Siakam - Ayton - Shai 3-way trade would be interesting. Add extra filler where required and a trade like that could theoretically work.

[wegotthabeet]

Phoenix's timeline is now and they could use a #2 scorer that plays PF.

We should be getting something more back in addition to Ayton if we’re gifting them Siakam.

I'm not a part of the Siakam should be traded immediately crowd but a Siakam - Ayton - Shai 3-way trade would be interesting. Add extra filler where required and a trade like that could theoretically work.

This is slightly less realistic, but similar. 4 teams.

To Toronto: SGA
To Indiana: Trent, 2023 PHO FRP, 2024 TOR FRP
To Phoenix: Vanvleet, Turner
To OKC: Ayton +

Barnes
SGA
OG
Siakam
Achiuwa

[tecumseh18]

We should be getting something more back in addition to Ayton if we’re gifting them Siakam.

I'm not a part of the Siakam should be traded immediately crowd but a Siakam - Ayton - Shai 3-way trade would be interesting. Add extra filler where required and a trade like that could theoretically work.

This is slightly less realistic, but similar. 4 teams.

To Toronto: SGA
To Indiana: Trent, 2023 PHO FRP, 2024 TOR FRP
To Phoenix: Vanvleet, Turner
To OKC: Ayton +

Barnes
SGA
OG
Siakam
Achiuwa

Maybe, but I think it would be OG and Trent going out. And none of our picks (except maybe the Detroit 2nd rounder).

[wegotthabeet]

I'm not a part of the Siakam should be traded immediately crowd but a Siakam - Ayton - Shai 3-way trade would be interesting. Add extra filler where required and a trade like that could theoretically work.

This is slightly less realistic, but similar. 4 teams.

To Toronto: SGA
To Indiana: Trent, 2023 PHO FRP, 2024 TOR FRP
To Phoenix: Vanvleet, Turner
To OKC: Ayton +

Barnes
SGA
OG
Siakam
Achiuwa

Maybe, but I think it would be OG and Trent going out. And none of our picks (except maybe the Detroit 2nd rounder).

I'd prefer to keep OG over FVV + pick.

[tecumseh18]

This is slightly less realistic, but similar. 4 teams.

To Toronto: SGA
To Indiana: Trent, 2023 PHO FRP, 2024 TOR FRP
To Phoenix: Vanvleet, Turner
To OKC: Ayton +

Barnes
SGA
OG
Siakam
Achiuwa

Maybe, but I think it would be OG and Trent going out. And none of our picks (except maybe the Detroit 2nd rounder).

I'd prefer to keep OG over FVV + pick.

Raptors are NOT going to trade their two best shooters for a big who hasn't proved he can shoot or defend on the perimeter.

[wegotthabeet]

Maybe, but I think it would be OG and Trent going out. And none of our picks (except maybe the Detroit 2nd rounder).

I'd prefer to keep OG over FVV + pick.

Raptors are NOT going to trade their two best shooters for a big who hasn't proved he can shoot or defend on the perimeter.

I have them trying to acquire SGA, not Ayton.

SGA
OG
Barnes
Siakam
Precious

[720]

I'd prefer to keep OG over FVV + pick.

Raptors are NOT going to trade their two best shooters for a big who hasn't proved he can shoot or defend on the perimeter.

I have them trying to acquire SGA, not Ayton.

SGA
OG
Barnes
Siakam
Precious

Oh man, what a lineup. So dynamic.

[tecumseh18]

I'd prefer to keep OG over FVV + pick.

Raptors are NOT going to trade their two best shooters for a big who hasn't proved he can shoot or defend on the perimeter.

I have them trying to acquire SGA, not Ayton.

SGA
OG
Barnes
Siakam
Precious

Sorry, right. I'm getting confused.

But I don't see OKC wanting a backcourt of Lu and Fred. Maybe we could throw in Malachi and they send us Dort.

[720]

Raptors are NOT going to trade their two best shooters for a big who hasn't proved he can shoot or defend on the perimeter.

I have them trying to acquire SGA, not Ayton.

SGA
OG
Barnes
Siakam
Precious

Sorry, right. I'm getting confused.

But I don't see OKC wanting a backcourt of Lu and Fred. Maybe we could throw in Malachi and they send us Dort.

OKC gets Ayton... He proposed a 4 team trade. Where we get SGA, Phoenix gets Vanvleet and Miles Turner, OKC gets Ayton and Indiana gets Gary and a bunch of 1st rounders.

The only team I think would say no to this is OKC. SGA is a day younger than Ayton and better. But they might like the Giddey, Ayton, whatever pick they get this year as a nice core more.

[Tha Cynic]

"I want that kind of fighter on my team. … Those things crack people, right? … To see him on that stage, fight and fight, that’s who we want to go to war with."

Raptors President Masai Uriji on Pascal Siakam in season ending press conference.

Carry on.

[wegotthabeet]

I have them trying to acquire SGA, not Ayton.

SGA
OG
Barnes
Siakam
Precious

Sorry, right. I'm getting confused.

But I don't see OKC wanting a backcourt of Lu and Fred. Maybe we could throw in Malachi and they send us Dort.

OKC gets Ayton... He proposed a 4 team trade. Where we get SGA, Phoenix gets Vanvleet and Miles Turners, OKC gets Ayton and Indiana gets Gary and a bunch of 1st rounders.

The only team I think would say no to this is OKC. SGA is a day younger than Ayton and better. But they might like the Giddey, Ayton, whatever pick they get this year as a nice core more.

yeah it's probably a little light for OKC, but Ayton is a nice fit. Not sure who adds value though.

[Psubs]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/267008/Rafael-Stone-Rockets-Open-To-Moving-Third-Overall-Pick

#3 (Banchero?), Eric Gordon (expiring) and Christian Wood (expiring) for Pascal, Flynn and Svi (waive). Houston could use Pascal's playmaking.

Banchero is bigger than Siakam and could be a nice double PF duo with Precious.

It's a gamble but at that size and strength he could be this generation's Karl Malone that shoots 3's.

[Basketball_Jones]

I honestly think this thread is one year too early. After what Siakam showed this season and in the playoffs it makes little sense to trade him at this juncture

[720]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/267008/Rafael-Stone-Rockets-Open-To-Moving-Third-Overall-Pick

#3 (Banchero?), Eric Gordon (expiring) and Christian Wood (expiring) for Pascal, Flynn and Svi (waive). Houston could use Pascal's playmaking.

Banchero is bigger than Siakam and could be a nice double PF duo with Precious.

It's a gamble but at that size and strength he could be this generation's Karl Malone that shoots 3's.

Houston would never do that. They're trying to rebuild with a solid young core multiple with star potential. Trading for a 28 year old Siakam makes little sense. They probably won't make a win now move until a couple years from now when they have a foundation of young players with talent.