2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[LukaTheGOAT]

Jaylen Brown dribbles like someone is in his ear telling him what moves to do.

[70sFan]

I still think that Bostons wins if Smart and Horford comes back, but I have a bit more hope now. Butler is nothing short of incredible, he's proving everyone that what he did in 2020 is not a fluke.

What's crazy is that most people don't see him as the best player in the playoffs so far. I get it that Tatum and Luka are great, but Jimmy is doing incredible things. I hope they will beat Boston with Bulter playing dominant series.

[70sFan]

In retrospect, I think we should give Milwaukee way more credit for what they did on Butler last year. It was the only time in last 5 postseasons when Butler got shut down. I also think Jimmy would struggle a lot more with Bucks than Celtics this year.

[The-Power]

Butler is a curious case. He shouldn't be as dominant offensively as he is, yet here we are – in the ECF – and his dominance continues. I think he got a pretty favorable whistle last night but even with that, he's playing well beyond my expectations.

If he continues to have an absurdly dominant series against this Celtics team, he'll climb up my ballot considerably. I'm still skeptical because he should not be as dominant (on offense) against a team that has multiple players that can force him into tough or low-percentage shots. But with every game, he chips away at my doubts.

Note: And to be clear – I already think Butler is an awesome player. Great defender, great leader if team chemistry is good, and obviously a very competent offensive player that tends to find ways to make an impact. But this kind of offensive dominance? I didn't expect that and thus I still can't really believe it's sustainable.

[TheGOATRises007]

Read on Twitter

I think that should put into perspective just how good Butler's been for Miami in the playoffs sans last year obviously.

That's insane. Didn't think he'd have more than LeBron.

Also gives greater credence to Lebron's offense peaking in his 2nd Cleveland stint.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Read on Twitter

I think that should put into perspective just how good Butler's been for Miami in the playoffs sans last year obviously.

That's insane. Didn't think he'd have more than LeBron.

Also gives greater credence to Lebron's offense peaking in his 2nd Cleveland stint.

I agree it peaked in the second Cleveland stint (I think that’s when he peaked in general to be honest) but box score numbers have been inflated in recent years in general

[Statlanta]

I don’t think Butler reached another level, I think Miami gained a level of depth that allows him to be a top level player. Miami is the deepest team in the league that’s not Phoenix

[SideshowBob]

Read on Twitter

I think that should put into perspective just how good Butler's been for Miami in the playoffs sans last year obviously.

That's insane. Didn't think he'd have more than LeBron.

Also gives greater credence to Lebron's offense peaking in his 2nd Cleveland stint.

I agree it peaked in the second Cleveland stint (I think that’s when he peaked in general to be honest) but box score numbers have been inflated in recent years in general

Even then, there's a considerable gap here. 2015-2022 he's done it 15 times, with 8 of those 15 coming in the Finals. No one else is even close, though Doncic could be by the end of this playoff run.



Either way, point is I agree with you on 2nd stint Cleveland vs Miami stint (FWIW I think the shift really happened in final Miami 2014 season, with 2015 being a slight outlier in the trajectory due to injuries).

[Texas Chuck]

Jimmy Butler is a guy I have rooted for ever since that season where Derrick Rose refused to play in the playoffs when like the entire roster was hurt or sick and Butler who had been a 20 mpg in the RS, was playing 40 minutes and just playing his ass off. Then every year he just kept getting better and better and better.

I know he's prickly and not for everyone, but I've always appreciated the guy. Good on him for getting some flowers here.

[falcolombardi]

lebron in miami was a incredible scorer but he saved more of it for non wade minutes , he became more of a distributor and let wade handle the scoring most of the time when both shared the court (even post 2011) somethingh sinilar happened with kyrie who actually took more shots than lebron

his scoring volume and efficiency were absurd when he went into scorer mode, ben taylor actually compared his scoring volume with a more efficient peak jordan in those minutes

edit: 33 points per 75 in +8 efficiency during non wade minutes (2012 and 2013).

31 points per 75 in +11 efficiency during non wade minutes in 2014

when he played with wade he only scored 24 points/75 in 2012-2014 (fun fact, lebron had -2(!) efficiency in 2012 playing with wade but +10/+12 in 2013 and 2014 playing with wade)

for reference jordan efficiency peaked in 91 with +7 efficiency in around 31 points per 75

regardless this is only scoring, lebron even before peaking in cleveland was a stronger creator than butler in his miami seasons, so as great as butler has been, i dont think he is as good offensively as miami lebron

[CKRT]

Read on Twitter

I think that should put into perspective just how good Butler's been for Miami in the playoffs sans last year obviously.

That's insane. Didn't think he'd have more than LeBron.

Also gives greater credence to Lebron's offense peaking in his 2nd Cleveland stint.

I agree it peaked in the second Cleveland stint (I think that’s when he peaked in general to be honest) but box score numbers have been inflated in recent years in general

Even then, there's a considerable gap here. 2015-2022 he's done it 15 times, with 8 of those 15 coming in the Finals. No one else is even close, though Doncic could be by the end of this playoff run.



Either way, point is I agree with you on 2nd stint Cleveland vs Miami stint (FWIW I think the shift really happened in final Miami 2014 season, with 2015 being a slight outlier in the trajectory due to injuries).

Good to see you posting again Sideshow, the LeBron thread quality has definitely gone down since you stopped posting.

[tsherkin]

Read on Twitter

I think that should put into perspective just how good Butler's been for Miami in the playoffs sans last year obviously.

That's insane. Didn't think he'd have more than LeBron.

Also gives greater credence to Lebron's offense peaking in his 2nd Cleveland stint.

I agree it peaked in the second Cleveland stint (I think that’s when he peaked in general to be honest) but box score numbers have been inflated in recent years in general

Even then, there's a considerable gap here. 2015-2022 he's done it 15 times, with 8 of those 15 coming in the Finals. No one else is even close, though Doncic could be by the end of this playoff run.



Either way, point is I agree with you on 2nd stint Cleveland vs Miami stint (FWIW I think the shift really happened in final Miami 2014 season, with 2015 being a slight outlier in the trajectory due to injuries).

Nice read, thanks.

[Outside]

The WCF is going to show us if the Mavs are that good or the Suns were that bad. (We know that Utah was a disaster waiting to happen.)

The ECF are going to show us if Miami and Butler are that good or the Hawks and Sixers were that bad. (So far, score one for Miami and Butler.)

[Colbinii]

The WCF is going to show us if the Mavs are that good or the Suns were that bad. (We know that Utah was a disaster waiting to happen.)

The ECF are going to show us if Miami and Butler are that good or the Hawks and Sixers were that bad. (So far, score one for Miami and Butler.)

Can't the same be said for the Warriors? Faced a worse opponent than the Mavs in round 1 only to face a team in round 2 who was consistently outplayed by a mediocre Minnesota team and didnt have its best player [Ja Morant].

[Outside]

The WCF is going to show us if the Mavs are that good or the Suns were that bad. (We know that Utah was a disaster waiting to happen.)

The ECF are going to show us if Miami and Butler are that good or the Hawks and Sixers were that bad. (So far, score one for Miami and Butler.)

Can't the same be said for the Warriors? Faced a worse opponent than the Mavs in round 1 only to face a team in round 2 who was consistently outplayed by a mediocre Minnesota team and didnt have its best player [Ja Morant].

Sure, you can position it however you want. But as far as the WCF goes, the more compelling question (to me, anyway) is how good the Mavs really are as a team.

There's all sorts of questions we could ask. Will the Warriors let him Luka go off in spectacular fashion and attempt to contain the others? (My guess is yes.) Will the Warriors be able to approach their championship level of play? (TBD.) What will the Warriors offense ratio be between their motion offense and putting Luka in PnR? (Probably save the PnR for the second half or even fourth quarters.) Will Steph's shooting return to otherworldly levels or stay at merely very good? (TBD.)

We've seen quality teams put in mediocre showings in the first round and step it up in later rounds, and the Grizzlies showing vs the TWolves can be chalked up to that. I didn't see anything that Minnesota did that would explain Ja having such a crappy series. As far as the Warriors-Memphis series goes, when Ja went out, that took away the Grizzlies go-to guy down the stretch, which was a big loss, but it also allowed Memphis to become significantly better defensively since Ja is terrible on that end and was getting abused regularly. Just because Memphis underwhelmed in the first round doesn't mean they aren't really good.

I expected the same from Phoenix -- underwhelming in the first round, then stepping it up in the second round -- but the series with Dallas exposed serious disfunction on the Suns that I don't think anyone saw coming, and Dallas jumped on that opening and beat them. It was something of a schizophrenic series from both teams, and looking at the Mavs, it did take seven games to beat a disintegrating Phoenix team, with the Suns beating them by 7, 20, and 30 in their three wins, so it's not clear whether the Mavs can beat a Warriors team with clearly better chemistry and cohesion.

It's not as if the Warriors don't have their own warning signs. They had a horrific showing in game 5 against Memphis, losing by 39 in a game that wasn't even that close. They had trouble handling the JJJ-Adams tandem, but the Mavs don't have anything like that. Steph hasn't been in full Steph mode (though he's been better than many people give him credit for, especially in fourth quarters). Klay is inconsistent shooting-wise and doesn't have the lateral quickness defensively. Their rotation is thin, though Otto Porter, Jr. will be back, which is an underappreciated factor for them. Every team has issues, and they have theirs, too.

But I still go with my original question about the series -- whether the Mavs are as good as they seemed to be against Phoenix -- as the biggest question. That game 7 curb-stomping left us with an image of them as championship quality.

[Colbinii]

The WCF is going to show us if the Mavs are that good or the Suns were that bad. (We know that Utah was a disaster waiting to happen.)

The ECF are going to show us if Miami and Butler are that good or the Hawks and Sixers were that bad. (So far, score one for Miami and Butler.)

Can't the same be said for the Warriors? Faced a worse opponent than the Mavs in round 1 only to face a team in round 2 who was consistently outplayed by a mediocre Minnesota team and didnt have its best player [Ja Morant].

Sure, you can position it however you want. But as far as the WCF goes, the more compelling question (to me, anyway) is how good the Mavs really are as a team.

There's all sorts of questions we could ask. Will the Warriors let him Luka go off in spectacular fashion and attempt to contain the others? (My guess is yes.) Will the Warriors be able to approach their championship level of play? (TBD.) What will the Warriors offense ratio be between their motion offense and putting Luka in PnR? (Probably save the PnR for the second half or even fourth quarters.) Will Steph's shooting return to otherworldly levels or stay at merely very good? (TBD.)

We've seen quality teams put in mediocre showings in the first round and step it up in later rounds, and the Grizzlies showing vs the TWolves can be chalked up to that. I didn't see anything that Minnesota did that would explain Ja having such a crappy series. As far as the Warriors-Memphis series goes, when Ja went out, that took away the Grizzlies go-to guy down the stretch, which was a big loss, but it also allowed Memphis to become significantly better defensively since Ja is terrible on that end and was getting abused regularly. Just because Memphis underwhelmed in the first round doesn't mean they aren't really good.

I expected the same from Phoenix -- underwhelming in the first round, then stepping it up in the second round -- but the series with Dallas exposed serious disfunction on the Suns that I don't think anyone saw coming, and Dallas jumped on that opening and beat them. It was something of a schizophrenic series from both teams, and looking at the Mavs, it did take seven games to beat a disintegrating Phoenix team, with the Suns beating them by 7, 20, and 30 in their three wins, so it's not clear whether the Mavs can beat a Warriors team with clearly better chemistry and cohesion.

It's not as if the Warriors don't have their own warning signs. They had a horrific showing in game 5 against Memphis, losing by 39 in a game that wasn't even that close. They had trouble handling the JJJ-Adams tandem, but the Mavs don't have anything like that. Steph hasn't been in full Steph mode (though he's been better than many people give him credit for, especially in fourth quarters). Klay is inconsistent shooting-wise and doesn't have the lateral quickness defensively. Their rotation is thin, though Otto Porter, Jr. will be back, which is an underappreciated factor for them. Every team has issues, and they have theirs, too.

But I still go with my original question about the series -- whether the Mavs are as good as they seemed to be against Phoenix -- as the biggest question. That game 7 curb-stomping left us with an image of them as championship quality.

My overarching point is the Warriors have more questions at this time if they are championship level than the Mavericks do.

[Doctor MJ]

Can't the same be said for the Warriors? Faced a worse opponent than the Mavs in round 1 only to face a team in round 2 who was consistently outplayed by a mediocre Minnesota team and didnt have its best player [Ja Morant].

Sure, you can position it however you want. But as far as the WCF goes, the more compelling question (to me, anyway) is how good the Mavs really are as a team.

There's all sorts of questions we could ask. Will the Warriors let him Luka go off in spectacular fashion and attempt to contain the others? (My guess is yes.) Will the Warriors be able to approach their championship level of play? (TBD.) What will the Warriors offense ratio be between their motion offense and putting Luka in PnR? (Probably save the PnR for the second half or even fourth quarters.) Will Steph's shooting return to otherworldly levels or stay at merely very good? (TBD.)

We've seen quality teams put in mediocre showings in the first round and step it up in later rounds, and the Grizzlies showing vs the TWolves can be chalked up to that. I didn't see anything that Minnesota did that would explain Ja having such a crappy series. As far as the Warriors-Memphis series goes, when Ja went out, that took away the Grizzlies go-to guy down the stretch, which was a big loss, but it also allowed Memphis to become significantly better defensively since Ja is terrible on that end and was getting abused regularly. Just because Memphis underwhelmed in the first round doesn't mean they aren't really good.

I expected the same from Phoenix -- underwhelming in the first round, then stepping it up in the second round -- but the series with Dallas exposed serious disfunction on the Suns that I don't think anyone saw coming, and Dallas jumped on that opening and beat them. It was something of a schizophrenic series from both teams, and looking at the Mavs, it did take seven games to beat a disintegrating Phoenix team, with the Suns beating them by 7, 20, and 30 in their three wins, so it's not clear whether the Mavs can beat a Warriors team with clearly better chemistry and cohesion.

It's not as if the Warriors don't have their own warning signs. They had a horrific showing in game 5 against Memphis, losing by 39 in a game that wasn't even that close. They had trouble handling the JJJ-Adams tandem, but the Mavs don't have anything like that. Steph hasn't been in full Steph mode (though he's been better than many people give him credit for, especially in fourth quarters). Klay is inconsistent shooting-wise and doesn't have the lateral quickness defensively. Their rotation is thin, though Otto Porter, Jr. will be back, which is an underappreciated factor for them. Every team has issues, and they have theirs, too.

But I still go with my original question about the series -- whether the Mavs are as good as they seemed to be against Phoenix -- as the biggest question. That game 7 curb-stomping left us with an image of them as championship quality.

My overarching point is the Warriors have more questions at this time if they are championship level than the Mavericks do.

So, if you think the Mavs have been the more impressive team in the playoffs, and thus should be favorites in this series and more likely to win the chip, that's not crazy at all.

But the Warriors have won it all before so the question isn't so much whether they can win it all, but whether they can get back to those previous heights one more time (or maybe more, but they are on the Back 9 of their run without question).

The Mavs, on the other hand, are the exciting new thing, and a new thing that if they win the chip this year, may be poised to dominate the league for the foreseeable future.

Hence, I too think the Mavs are the more interesting question than the Warriors.

[Colbinii]

Sure, you can position it however you want. But as far as the WCF goes, the more compelling question (to me, anyway) is how good the Mavs really are as a team.

There's all sorts of questions we could ask. Will the Warriors let him Luka go off in spectacular fashion and attempt to contain the others? (My guess is yes.) Will the Warriors be able to approach their championship level of play? (TBD.) What will the Warriors offense ratio be between their motion offense and putting Luka in PnR? (Probably save the PnR for the second half or even fourth quarters.) Will Steph's shooting return to otherworldly levels or stay at merely very good? (TBD.)

We've seen quality teams put in mediocre showings in the first round and step it up in later rounds, and the Grizzlies showing vs the TWolves can be chalked up to that. I didn't see anything that Minnesota did that would explain Ja having such a crappy series. As far as the Warriors-Memphis series goes, when Ja went out, that took away the Grizzlies go-to guy down the stretch, which was a big loss, but it also allowed Memphis to become significantly better defensively since Ja is terrible on that end and was getting abused regularly. Just because Memphis underwhelmed in the first round doesn't mean they aren't really good.

I expected the same from Phoenix -- underwhelming in the first round, then stepping it up in the second round -- but the series with Dallas exposed serious disfunction on the Suns that I don't think anyone saw coming, and Dallas jumped on that opening and beat them. It was something of a schizophrenic series from both teams, and looking at the Mavs, it did take seven games to beat a disintegrating Phoenix team, with the Suns beating them by 7, 20, and 30 in their three wins, so it's not clear whether the Mavs can beat a Warriors team with clearly better chemistry and cohesion.

It's not as if the Warriors don't have their own warning signs. They had a horrific showing in game 5 against Memphis, losing by 39 in a game that wasn't even that close. They had trouble handling the JJJ-Adams tandem, but the Mavs don't have anything like that. Steph hasn't been in full Steph mode (though he's been better than many people give him credit for, especially in fourth quarters). Klay is inconsistent shooting-wise and doesn't have the lateral quickness defensively. Their rotation is thin, though Otto Porter, Jr. will be back, which is an underappreciated factor for them. Every team has issues, and they have theirs, too.

But I still go with my original question about the series -- whether the Mavs are as good as they seemed to be against Phoenix -- as the biggest question. That game 7 curb-stomping left us with an image of them as championship quality.

My overarching point is the Warriors have more questions at this time if they are championship level than the Mavericks do.

So, if you think the Mavs have been the more impressive team in the playoffs, and thus should be favorites in this series and more likely to win the chip, that's not crazy at all.

But the Warriors have won it all before so the question isn't so much whether they can win it all, but whether they can get back to those previous heights one more time (or maybe more, but they are on the Back 9 of their run without question).

The Mavs, on the other hand, are the exciting new thing, and a new thing that if they win the chip this year, may be poised to dominate the league for the foreseeable future.

Hence, I too think the Mavs are the more interesting question than the Warriors.

The last time the core of Curry, Draymond and Thompson made the finals was 2016, winning was 2015.

That is 6-7 years ago.

Both teams have questions, but one team has beaten a 64-win team [and was the better team over the past 5 games by something like +11 points per 100? Just trying to remember your post] and the other team has beaten two of the weaker Western Conference Playoffs team [Nuggets and Morant-less Grizzles].

Looking back to 2021 and 2020, Luka went toe-to-toe with Kawhi and George [which was the likely Western Conference favorite prior to Kawhi going down and I believe favorite in 2020].

The Warriors on the other hand missed the playoffs the last 2 seasons, 2021 notably losing to the team they just beat [Memphis] in the play-in.

At the end of the day we are discussing who has more questions which is about as productive as discussing why blue underwear are better than red underwear.

[parsnips33]

What evidence is there that Grizzlies without Morant are a weak team? Hasn't everything we've seen shown the opposite?

[falcolombardi]

What evidence is there that Grizzlies without Morant are a weak team? Hasn't everything we've seen shown the opposite?

if warriors beat dallas then we will have to wonder if dallas was really better than memphis

maybe suns choked amd would normally beat dallas 9/10 times or maybe dallas was actually the stronger team going into the playoffs as their comparable records in 2022 support, is hard to be sure