2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[Doctor MJ]

Yeah Curry has definitely had a rough go of it this postseason. Shooting like 35% from 3 so far?

I don't think he's really in that conversation anymore, he's just not played well enough for a long enough time. I sort of wonder if them distributing shots to more guys has hurt his rhythm. He's always been very much a rhythm and hot/cold player so I feel like with Poole and Klay getting more shots now that he's just not able to get in the groove as much. Granted, maybe that's intentional because he's just not hitting those shots at a high enough rate.

If I were to rank him I'd put him in the bottom half of the top 10.

So I'd agree with the general: I think that the Curry is not as able to consistently get into grooves when he's forced to play more team ball, and I think the same is true for basically all volume scorers.

I'd just be wary about thinking of that as the same thing as reducing that player's value to the team.

I should have added that I don't think his impact is reliant on his "box scores" like most other players. It's been proven this year that even if he has a 3-14 shooting night he can still be the most impactful player on the offensive side of the ball.

Now, could you throw him into any offense and still extract that value with those shooting numbers? Almost certainly not, which is why I rate him around where I do. He's more reliant on the system than ever, and I think that matters a bit. Not every team can run the GS style of offense, in fact no one can because it's yet to be successfully replicated nearly a decade later.

To me, this is a bit like saying that Russell's title don't count because no other team can play defense like the Celtics could, except it makes less sense because plenty of other teams could and would play Warrior-ball effectively if that were the dominant paradigm of basketball in the present time.

It is true that Warrior-ball places a premium on the players on the court knowing what they are doing and being able to make decisions on the fly, but teams have literally been very successful doing this for 100 years. It's not some impossible thing to do, and while it places BBIQ at a premium, that's just another way of saying it makes other things less of a premium, which means you're not as dependent on getting guys with the physical talents that made them top tier prospects coming out of high school. That's not a bad thing.

One more thing I'll add though:

There is a specific reason why modern NBA teams are less likely to be able to pull off successful team-ball like the Warriors have right now, and that's the lack of continuity that most teams have now. And while I think that this is a natural product of free agency and player empowerment and not something to be overly critical of, I don't see how it makes any sense to criticize the guys who have stayed with one team for the fact that their choice to stay with one team has allowed them to groom others to play well with them.

[parsnips33]

Is Steph reliant on the system or is the system reliant on him?

I would say the driving catalyst for the Warriors success since 2015 has been its relentless and consistently great defense.

Could the defense operate to a similar degree with a game manager like Chris Paul at the helm or an electric rim attacker like Ja Morant/Derrick Rose?

I think it's an interesting question. I think everyone agrees that Draymond is the main driver of the defense, and also that Draymond has an incredibly unique offensive blend of strengths and weaknesses that pair perfectly with Steph's skillset. So maybe the defense stays just as good but the offense is no longer good enough to be dynasty level? Hard to say

Also I think Warriors would clearly need to institute a new offensive system with any of those guys. You're not running post splits 15 times a game for D Rose

[falcolombardi]

Do you believe Giannis or Jokic could play Curry's role? If not, what's your basis for comparison?

i mean, yeah?

giannis cannot play curry role, neither can curry play jokic role, or jokic giannis role so i dont get your point?

this is a confusing post doc

Point being that it's not easy to compare players who play the game completely differently, and thus it's worth asking how someone is determining their preference in some comparisons.

All this might seem pedantic and call for a response of "It's obviously complicated and I'm not going to into it every time I make a post.", but Jalen said he "struggled" to see a case, which leads us to ask questions pertaining to that struggle.

and what does that have to do with anythingh in a comparision with giannis or jokic who also have identities and tean constructions built around them (when healthy in denver case)?

not trying to be an ass, i just dont get what your point was ?

[Colbinii]

Is Steph reliant on the system or is the system reliant on him?

I would say the driving catalyst for the Warriors success since 2015 has been its relentless and consistently great defense.

Could the defense operate to a similar degree with a game manager like Chris Paul at the helm or an electric rim attacker like Ja Morant/Derrick Rose?

I think it's an interesting question. I think everyone agrees that Draymond is the main driver of the defense, and also that Draymond has an incredibly unique offensive blend of strengths and weaknesses that pair perfectly with Steph's skillset. So maybe the defense stays just as good but the offense is no longer good enough to be dynasty level? Hard to say

Well I think the team can win a title in 2015 and 2016 [2017 and 2018 as well] but as we know titles aren't guaranteed.

Is Curry the biggest reason the team is a dyntasy over Green? I can see the argument but I don't think its as black and white as the Jordan Bulls or Duncan Spurs.

[eminence]

I think Dray would be booty on offense playing off Rose or CP3.

[tsherkin]

I think Dray would be booty on offense playing off Rose or CP3.

Mmm.... what do you think, better or worse than with the Warriors? What do you think the ball-dominant guys would do for him?

[Doctor MJ]

i mean, yeah?

giannis cannot play curry role, neither can curry play jokic role, or jokic giannis role so i dont get your point?

this is a confusing post doc

Point being that it's not easy to compare players who play the game completely differently, and thus it's worth asking how someone is determining their preference in some comparisons.

All this might seem pedantic and call for a response of "It's obviously complicated and I'm not going to into it every time I make a post.", but Jalen said he "struggled" to see a case, which leads us to ask questions pertaining to that struggle.

and what does that have to do with anythingh in a comparision with giannis or jokic who also have identities and tean constructions built around them (when healthy in denver case)?

not trying to be an ass, i just dont get what your point was ?

If someone says they struggle to see a certain thing, it's relevant to ask them to elaborate on their struggle.

[parsnips33]

I would say the driving catalyst for the Warriors success since 2015 has been its relentless and consistently great defense.

Could the defense operate to a similar degree with a game manager like Chris Paul at the helm or an electric rim attacker like Ja Morant/Derrick Rose?

I think it's an interesting question. I think everyone agrees that Draymond is the main driver of the defense, and also that Draymond has an incredibly unique offensive blend of strengths and weaknesses that pair perfectly with Steph's skillset. So maybe the defense stays just as good but the offense is no longer good enough to be dynasty level? Hard to say

Well I think the team can win a title in 2015 and 2016 [2017 and 2018 as well] but as we know titles aren't guaranteed.

Is Curry the biggest reason the team is a dyntasy over Green? I can see the argument but I don't think its as black and white as the Jordan Bulls or Duncan Spurs.

I do think Steph has been the best player for the Warriors every year they won a ring. But yeah I think it's a situation not really like anything we've seen before in that we have 2 guys that are not only elite but that also broke the mold for their position and fit together perfectly. And we've never really seen them play a part from each other in an extended context. Probably won't see a team like this again for a very long time.

[Colbinii]

I think Dray would be booty on offense playing off Rose or CP3.

Griffin is one of the better playmaking bigs of the past decade and he did extremely well next to CP3, finishing as high as 3rd in MVP.

Would Draymond be useless [I assume that's what Booty means?] and the answer to that is a resounding no. His BBIQ and competitiveness would blend well with CP3 and frankly--help Rose as well.

I think 2021 showed you need a specific group of players around Draymond and Curry to succeed.

[Texas Chuck]

Yeah I strongly disagree with any argument that says great player X is only great next to great player Y. That's not to say there isn't a beautiful symbiotic relationship between Steph and Draymond that has obviously benefited both and the team---I mean the resume speaks for itself.

But Draymond is simply too great at basketball to suggest his offensive IQ and passing just disappear playing with Rose or Paul.

[parsnips33]

Yeah I strongly disagree with any argument that says great player X is only great next to great player Y. That's not to say there isn't a beautiful symbiotic relationship between Steph and Draymond that has obviously benefited both and the team---I mean the resume speaks for itself.

But Draymond is simply too great at basketball to suggest his offensive IQ and passing just disappear playing with Rose or Paul.

I think you need a lead guard who is a threat to pull up out of the PNR. CP3 definitely fits that role more than D Rose. But I think the short roll context where he is elite is somewhat reliant on that threat.

Of course, his transition offense (to say nothing of his defense) are pretty context agnostic. And he's found a way to be effective passing out of the post even when he's not a threat to score, but again that's somewhat reliant on having guys who are good at shooting off off-ball movement

[parsnips33]

We will never know, but I think play-in tournament going into effect last season is a massive what-if. Red hot 8-seeded Warriors going up against Utah in round 1? Of course I can't be sure how that series might have gone but I feel pretty damn sure lol

[tsherkin]

Yeah I strongly disagree with any argument that says great player X is only great next to great player Y. That's not to say there isn't a beautiful symbiotic relationship between Steph and Draymond that has obviously benefited both and the team---I mean the resume speaks for itself.

But Draymond is simply too great at basketball to suggest his offensive IQ and passing just disappear playing with Rose or Paul.

I would be interested to see how he'd adapt. Draymond is a reluctant shooter, mediocre at the line, and fairly mercurial in terms of his own personal scoring as far as draw rate and efficiency and all that stuff. He's also routinely injured, so it's hard to find the consistent thread in his game. He sees the court well, he understands the game quite well. He's a very proficient passer. He's not a particularly skilled shooter beyond 10 feet, which is a big part of his reluctance to pull even open jumpers. Obviously, his defensive value is very well-known at this stage.

With a ball dominant guy, I think he ends up losing utility in terms of how he's used to make plays. But if someone is taking the ball out of his hands, his utility on offense diminishes considerably, which does make it a legit question as to what he'd look like in a stylistically divergent environment. He's got skills, but as with any player, you need to put a guy in position to succeed and to wield his developed skills.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I'm just saying, in the first 3 games of the Portland series that Steph missed, Draymond averaged 25.7 points per game and 8.7 assists per game, and the Warriors up 2-1 in the 2nd round. He had a Game BPM of 16.9, 3.3, and 18.3 in those 3 games which is pretty remarkable.

[70sFan]

By the way, for now in the playoffs:

Warriors offense vs Nuggets: +11.0 rORtg
Warriors defense vs Nuggets: -4.5 rDRtg

Warriors offense vs Grizzlies: +0.8 rORtg
Warriors defense vs Grizzlies: -5.4 rDRtg

We have to wait for the rest of the WCF to draw a clearer conclusion. For now, Warriors offense destroyed Nuggets but was underwhelming vs Memphis. Defense has been consistent so far, which is nothing new when we look at 2015-19 Warriors.

[Doctor MJ]

I think Dray would be booty on offense playing off Rose or CP3.

Griffin is one of the better playmaking bigs of the past decade and he did extremely well next to CP3, finishing as high as 3rd in MVP.

Would Draymond be useless [I assume that's what Booty means?] and the answer to that is a resounding no. His BBIQ and competitiveness would blend well with CP3 and frankly--help Rose as well.

I think 2021 showed you need a specific group of players around Draymond and Curry to succeed.

Griffin finished 3rd in MVP because Paul missed time and he thrived once he was able to take on more of a playmaking role.

For comparison, here's how Griffin did in 2013-14 in the games with Paul compared to without.

With Paul: 24.3 points, 3.9 assists & 3.0 TO per 75 possessions shooting 57.6% TS with an On/48 of 9.9.
W/out Paul: 29.2 points, 4.5 assists & 2.7 TO per 75 possessions shooting 60.3% TS with an On/48 of 8.5.

To me it's long seemed pretty clear that adding Paul was awful for allowing Griffin to become the most valuable player he could possibly be...but since Paul was still the better player and the team was better off with him, it made sense to acquire him and let him run the offense how he seemed fit if you did acquire him.

Of course, it certainly would have been smarter, in retrospect, to try to acquire Curry, who could have allowed Griffin to develop on-ball while making life easier for Griffin with spacing.

[eminence]

I think Dray would be booty on offense playing off Rose or CP3.

Griffin is one of the better playmaking bigs of the past decade and he did extremely well next to CP3, finishing as high as 3rd in MVP.

Would Draymond be useless [I assume that's what Booty means?] and the answer to that is a resounding no. His BBIQ and competitiveness would blend well with CP3 and frankly--help Rose as well.

I think 2021 showed you need a specific group of players around Draymond and Curry to succeed.

Griffin is a wee bit better than Dray in other offensive areas and finished so high in the MVP race in large part due to what he did without CP3.

I was thinking of it more relatively (Josh Howard is booty compared to LeBron, but absolutely quite good), useless is too strong, but next to Curry I think Dray is one of the best offensive bigs of his generation (on par with Griffin, only cleanly outclassed by Jokic), I don’t think he could replicate that level in other settings.

[Outside]

By the way, for now in the playoffs:

Warriors offense vs Nuggets: +11.0 rORtg
Warriors defense vs Nuggets: -4.5 rDRtg

Warriors offense vs Grizzlies: +0.8 rORtg
Warriors defense vs Grizzlies: -5.4 rDRtg

We have to wait for the rest of the WCF to draw a clearer conclusion. For now, Warriors offense destroyed Nuggets but was underwhelming vs Memphis. Defense has been consistent so far, which is nothing new when we look at 2015-19 Warriors.

Credit goes to Memphis for their defense. And I feel like a broken record here, but that was especially true after Ja was injured.

[Peregrine01]

By the way, for now in the playoffs:

Warriors offense vs Nuggets: +11.0 rORtg
Warriors defense vs Nuggets: -4.5 rDRtg

Warriors offense vs Grizzlies: +0.8 rORtg
Warriors defense vs Grizzlies: -5.4 rDRtg

We have to wait for the rest of the WCF to draw a clearer conclusion. For now, Warriors offense destroyed Nuggets but was underwhelming vs Memphis. Defense has been consistent so far, which is nothing new when we look at 2015-19 Warriors.

Credit goes to Memphis for their defense. And I feel like a broken record here, but that was especially true after Ja was injured.

I also got the sense that the Warriors loafed around a lot in that Memphis series. They didn't seem to think that that team was on their level and had some completely bizarre performances where they would go on turnover sprees. Their inconsistency from game to game continues to astound me.

[RCM88x]

So I'd agree with the general: I think that the Curry is not as able to consistently get into grooves when he's forced to play more team ball, and I think the same is true for basically all volume scorers.

I'd just be wary about thinking of that as the same thing as reducing that player's value to the team.

I should have added that I don't think his impact is reliant on his "box scores" like most other players. It's been proven this year that even if he has a 3-14 shooting night he can still be the most impactful player on the offensive side of the ball.

Now, could you throw him into any offense and still extract that value with those shooting numbers? Almost certainly not, which is why I rate him around where I do. He's more reliant on the system than ever, and I think that matters a bit. Not every team can run the GS style of offense, in fact no one can because it's yet to be successfully replicated nearly a decade later.

How can you not credit Curry for that? The GS offense is the Curry offense. Sure that's reductive and Draymond deserves a lot of credit but Curry is the person that allows them to play this way. Also, it's not like you can't put him on the ball more and run more high P&Rs and have an elite offense. Second half of last year they played a more normal style and he was the best player in the world (imo). No reason to think he couldn't do that elsewhere.

He deserves some credit for making them as good as they are, sure, but they run the same offense without Curry in the game. Is not like they suddenly become vanilla when he's not out there. It's not quite as effective, just as you'd expect any team to be without their best player, but they play the same way. Curry and Draymond ultimately are the engines though, equally so I think.

Last year their offense really wasn't that great playing "more vanilla", even with Curry on the court it was only a few points above average. It became equally as terrible with either Dray or Curry sat. That roster was really devoid of talent outside of those two guys so I don't think it is that surprising that it suddenly became ineffective. But I also think that them adjusting their style of play sort of impacted that drop-off too.

They've proven time and time again to be effective without Curry playing, even in the playoffs. All parts are reliant on each other, not equally, but I don't think one part deserves the majority of the credit.