This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins

[vagelis]

The same things again and again for Wiggins.
He sucked in Minesota (while he had a season averaging 24ppg and 20ppg for his career in Minesota), he was a bad defender(how exactly can a bad defender become elite?), now he is just a role player(while his teammates are Curry, Thompson, Green and he seems to be as significant as Thompson and Green at least) and whatever else.

We may have to wait until the end of the playoffs.
Because he may be in the finals this year. And he may win a title this year.

He has a matchup against Doncic. Doncic had comparisons with MJ a week ago before facing Wiggins.
He may have a matchup against Butler. Butler is said that he is the best player remaining in playoffs.

Are you so sure that these superstar players will outperform mediocre or former scrub (by your opinion) Wiggins?
I am not so sure

[Magicman125]

Wiggins played a more effective game for his team than Luka in game 1, let's see if he can keep it up for a series.

[Backcountry]

I'm sorry, is he suddenly not the most mediocre highest paid poorest performing player on Minnesota anymore because he's been ok at golden state? Didn't realise he's now in hindsight playing good defense at the wolves now

He took the cheque and mailed it in. The fact he's not performing and doing the small things on a title contender still screams he didn't care. So No. Not apologising. We still did well to kick his leech ass to the curb

100%

Minnesota was in a no-win situation with him, its hard to get someone with the #1 pick, max extend them, and then say "oh, he's probably better in a support role". That just doesn't happen

He's definitely a guy that needs to be handled with care. But I dont think this is about MIN fans and their experience, its the idea that he's not a key part of our team and its success

Am I the only one who remembers that it was Cleveland who drafted Wiggins #1, but then later that summer traded him to Minny for Kevin Love? (in a 3-team trade).

Anyway, anyone who had followed Wiggins since high school would know that he wasn't "the guy". Even then, with all of his extreme talent, he didn't give his all unless he was pushed. He's always been a guy who needed good coaching to keep his motor running. He had that in Kansas. He wasn't bad in Minnesota, just stuck in a bad situation. He's finally found a good fit in GS. You still see his lapses, but he has a defined role in a good system.

So no, he doesn't deserve an apology from fans, whether or not they dissed him, because he still got to play. And he doesn't need an apology from the Wolves, no matter how badly they wasted his talent, because he has their money. He should be thankful to GS, who has "rehabilitated" his reputation somewhat, and given him a solid chance to help them win a ring.

[tsherkin]

The same things again and again for Wiggins.
He sucked in Minesota (while he had a season averaging 24ppg and 20ppg for his career in Minesota),

There are ways to compliment Wiggins. Looking at the raw scoring average of a guy who was force-fed into inefficient volume scoring on a bad team isn't one of them.

he was a bad defender(how exactly can a bad defender become elite?), now he is just a role player(while his teammates are Curry, Thompson, Green and he seems to be as significant as Thompson and Green at least) and whatever else.

He wasn't initially a good defender. He certainly developed into a guy with a positive defensive reputation, however, and he mostly seems to be showcasing that with the Warriors as well. He's long and athletic and seems to largely be able to stay on his feet and stay in front of his guy. Seems to rotate well. Certainly has bought into Kerr's gameplan, which is probably the best thing he's done at either end of the floor.

Also, "just a roleplayer" is sort of an odd phrase. There is certainly a lot of star bias in the way many people discuss the game, but teams need their roleplayers to win. It isn't a pejorative to call someone a roleplayer when they aren't a focal option. Wiggins is fourth on the team in FGA/g during these playoffs, he simply isn't a feature player. That's a roleplayer. He slots into a role. He's a starter, the bulk of his offense comes set up by other players. About 2/3s of his 2pters and all of his 3s have been assisted so far in the postseason. In the regular season, just shy of 90% of his 3s were assisted and about 50% of his 2pters. He's been hot from the long 2 in the playoffs and maintaining his 3pt shooter from this RS, even as he's scored a little less. He's filled in nicely as the Warriors have needed him to. He's basically league-average in terms of scoring efficiency, which isn't remarkable, but the way he's doing it suits the Golden State machine, which is laudable. He just had a timely game, so emotional investment in his performance is high, hence this thread.

But yeah, I think people treat "roleplayer" like a dirty word. We have ever discussed a little more differentiation in labels past "star" and "roleplayer," because a lot of people think, like, "Derek Fisher" when they think "roleplayer," and the space is broader than that. Wiggins isn't a scrub just chewing minutes, he plays a part in the team's success, but he's clearly not a driving force, and what specifically he does (leastwise offensively) is fairly replaceable. His defensive improvement is nice, though, because it allows them to put another long-limbed, athletic guy out there who can switch pretty liberally, and that's quite helpful too.

[Myth]

oh. literally everybody. ok

I mean, 60% is not even close to everybody.

it was a lot worse before the first bump of the thread, but its my fault for thinking it was colloquial everybody since you can always find a few lunatics that will argue the sky aint blue.. The Warriors were dragged here for that trade, a lot, and its evident by the comments following the trade

But it wasn't just a few lunatics. There was clearly enough for it to be a genuine and reasonable debate. I highly doubt something like a 100 people (who didn't vote the first time around mind you) suddenly came in and drastically skewed those numbers.

[tsherkin]

Anyway, anyone who had followed Wiggins since high school would know that he wasn't "the guy". Even then, with all of his extreme talent, he didn't give his all unless he was pushed. He's always been a guy who needed good coaching to keep his motor running. He had that in Kansas. He wasn't bad in Minnesota, just stuck in a bad situation. He's finally found a good fit in GS. You still see his lapses, but he has a defined role in a good system.

It wasn't his jam. And years in Minny reinforced that. He didn't have the assertive mentality to be a scorer. He was raw to begin with when he hit the league, mostly athleticism and size. He worked a bit on his handle, hasn't ever seriously improved his jumper and has some issues at the line still. He actually just authored his worst season to date at the foul line, and it wasn't in a 50-game season, either. Wiggins has a limited skill profile, but as FNQ said:

Minnesota was in a no-win situation with him, its hard to get someone with the #1 pick, max extend them, and then say "oh, he's probably better in a support role". That just doesn't happen

He's definitely a guy that needs to be handled with care. But I dont think this is about MIN fans and their experience, its the idea that he's not a key part of our team and its success

He didn't have a chance to rebuild himself in Minny, he needed to move on. Finding himself in Golden State is for sure a thing, and a laudable evolution in his career. It's the younger-guy's equivalent of an older player shifting into a different role as his body betrays him due to age kind of thing. Or alongside a better star as they try to win, etc.

[vagelis]

Wiggins has a limited skill profile

He has a very adequate skill profile taking in to account his athleticism.
If you give him the green light right not he can average 25ppg easily.
I totally disagree that the current role is the role that fits to him.
It is one more role that Wiggins can play. He can play any role you give to him, he really has no flaws in his game.
Near Jordan type athleticism, with good shooting, good decision making, no mistakes and turnovers.
He has not the egoism to demand the ball that is his biggest disappointing characteristic.

[Los_29]

Everybody ripped him for years in Minnesota calling him a bust and a bad teammate. Then when he was traded everybody said Minnesota won the trade by getting Dlo. In reality he is a great 2 way player who has been great for the Warriors during this postseason run.

Time for people to just accept while not as good as Embiid or Jokic, he is a damn good player.

He was drafted 1st overall. You don't draft solid players 1st overall. You're supposed to get all-star caliber players (and no Wiggins isn't that even though he made it this year).

However, it's not Wiggins fault he was drafted #1 and it's certainly not his fault he's getting paid what he's getting paid. If Wiggins hadn't been drafted 1st overall and wasn't getting paid absurd money then we would be talking about him as a really solid complimentary player.

[tsherkin]

He has a very adequate skill profile taking in to account his athleticism.
If you give him the green light right not he can average 25ppg easily.

That seems at odds with reality. Minny needed him to do that, and he couldn't. Scoring efficiency is a problem for him. He doesn't draw well enough, hit FTs well enough, shoot well enough below the arc to do that at a rate which makes sense, and he isn't aggressive enough. His perimeter shooting has not historically been good enough to support that kind of volume either. He got close to 24 ppg in 2017, of course, so in the strictest sense of it being technically possible if you throw him enough minutes and touches, sure. But it wouldn't be good for team offense.

I totally disagree that the current role is the role that fits to him.

It suits his skills, and we've seen that he is inappropriate in a higher-volume role, leastwise when asked to create much for himself. It is possible he could handle a higher scoring load as a secondary player, perhaps.

It is one more role that Wiggins can play. He can play any role you give to him, he really has no flaws in his game.

Well that's just violently incorrect. There are obvious flaws in his game. To suggest otherwise is just abdicating attention to reality. And that's fine for Wiggins, there are basically no flawless players. Were he truly flawless, we would have seen him flourishing before now instead of floundering in the role for which he was drafted, but that was evidently not the case.

[WarriorGM]

Everybody ripped him for years in Minnesota calling him a bust and a bad teammate. Then when he was traded everybody said Minnesota won the trade by getting Dlo. In reality he is a great 2 way player who has been great for the Warriors during this postseason run.

Time for people to just accept while not as good as Embiid or Jokic, he is a damn good player.

He was drafted 1st overall. You don't draft solid players 1st overall. You're supposed to get all-star caliber players (and no Wiggins isn't that even though he made it this year).

However, it's not Wiggins fault he was drafted #1 and it's certainly not his fault he's getting paid what he's getting paid. If Wiggins hadn't been drafted 1st overall and wasn't getting paid absurd money then we would be talking about him as a really solid complimentary player.

Aside from Jokic and Embiid who would you take in a 2014 redraft over Wiggins? DPOY Marcus Smart? 2-time All-Star Zach Lavine?

[vagelis]

He has a very adequate skill profile taking in to account his athleticism.
If you give him the green light right not he can average 25ppg easily.

That seems at odds with reality. Minny needed him to do that, and he couldn't. Scoring efficiency is a problem for him. He doesn't draw well enough, hit FTs well enough, shoot well enough below the arc to do that at a rate which makes sense, and he isn't aggressive enough. His perimeter shooting has not historically been good enough to support that kind of volume either. He got close to 24 ppg in 2017, of course, so in the strictest sense of it being technically possible if you throw him enough minutes and touches, sure. But it wouldn't be good for team offense.

I totally disagree that the current role is the role that fits to him.

It suits his skills, and we've seen that he is inappropriate in a higher-volume role, leastwise when asked to create much for himself. It is possible he could handle a higher scoring load as a secondary player, perhaps.

It is one more role that Wiggins can play. He can play any role you give to him, he really has no flaws in his game.

Well that's just violently incorrect. There are obvious flaws in his game. To suggest otherwise is just abdicating attention to reality. And that's fine for Wiggins, there are basically no flawless players. Were he truly flawless, we would have seen him flourishing before now instead of floundering in the role for which he was drafted, but that was evidently not the case.

Minny gave him the green light when he was 19, 20 and 21 years old. He had not the green light the next years(except maybe his last year with Ryan Saunders)
He averaged 17, 20 and 24ppg his first 3 years.
I don't know what people expected from him in such a young age.
He is a better player now, more skilled and better shooter. Players get better with the years and Wiggins is in his prime now.
If the current Wiggins played the same role he had in his young years he would have been unstoppable.
His handles are better and his shooting is better, better decision making, stronger etc.
You judjed him for his whole career based on his 20yo skills

[Hello Brooklyn]

Why?

Wiggins was terrible in Minnesota.

He changed completely in Golden State. Good for him. Doesn't make what people said about him back then less true.

[gorz]

Hes not bad hes not a scrub by any means hes a solid player good player at his best. The only reason he gets ripped is bc he was the 1st pick and failed to live up to the hype..which is no fault of his own.

He's much better than Jabari Parker who was 1 pick below him. 2nd picks pretty much go under the radar no matter how bad they are darko milicic hasheem thabeet Michael Beasley derrick Williams etc. Only 1st picks get heavily scrutinized.

[dennythedino]

He has a very adequate skill profile taking in to account his athleticism.
If you give him the green light right not he can average 25ppg easily.

That seems at odds with reality. Minny needed him to do that, and he couldn't. Scoring efficiency is a problem for him. He doesn't draw well enough, hit FTs well enough, shoot well enough below the arc to do that at a rate which makes sense, and he isn't aggressive enough. His perimeter shooting has not historically been good enough to support that kind of volume either. He got close to 24 ppg in 2017, of course, so in the strictest sense of it being technically possible if you throw him enough minutes and touches, sure. But it wouldn't be good for team offense.

I totally disagree that the current role is the role that fits to him.

It suits his skills, and we've seen that he is inappropriate in a higher-volume role, leastwise when asked to create much for himself. It is possible he could handle a higher scoring load as a secondary player, perhaps.

It is one more role that Wiggins can play. He can play any role you give to him, he really has no flaws in his game.

Well that's just violently incorrect. There are obvious flaws in his game. To suggest otherwise is just abdicating attention to reality. And that's fine for Wiggins, there are basically no flawless players. Were he truly flawless, we would have seen him flourishing before now instead of floundering in the role for which he was drafted, but that was evidently not the case.

Minny gave him the green light when he was 19, 20 and 21 years old. He had not the green light the next years(except maybe his last year with Ryan Saunders)
He averaged 17, 20 and 24ppg his first 3 years.
I don't know what people expected from him in such a young age.
He is a better player now, more skilled and better shooter. Players get better with the years and Wiggins is in his prime now.
If the current Wiggins played the same role he had in his young years he would have been unstoppable.
His handles are better and his shooting is better, better decision making, stronger etc.
You judjed him for his whole career based on his 20yo skills

He's doing great at his role but he's also on a max contract to be the 4th scoring option and maybe(?) 4th or 5th best player on the team.

[FNQ]

That seems at odds with reality. Minny needed him to do that, and he couldn't. Scoring efficiency is a problem for him. He doesn't draw well enough, hit FTs well enough, shoot well enough below the arc to do that at a rate which makes sense, and he isn't aggressive enough. His perimeter shooting has not historically been good enough to support that kind of volume either. He got close to 24 ppg in 2017, of course, so in the strictest sense of it being technically possible if you throw him enough minutes and touches, sure. But it wouldn't be good for team offense.



It suits his skills, and we've seen that he is inappropriate in a higher-volume role, leastwise when asked to create much for himself. It is possible he could handle a higher scoring load as a secondary player, perhaps.



Well that's just violently incorrect. There are obvious flaws in his game. To suggest otherwise is just abdicating attention to reality. And that's fine for Wiggins, there are basically no flawless players. Were he truly flawless, we would have seen him flourishing before now instead of floundering in the role for which he was drafted, but that was evidently not the case.

Minny gave him the green light when he was 19, 20 and 21 years old. He had not the green light the next years(except maybe his last year with Ryan Saunders)
He averaged 17, 20 and 24ppg his first 3 years.
I don't know what people expected from him in such a young age.
He is a better player now, more skilled and better shooter. Players get better with the years and Wiggins is in his prime now.
If the current Wiggins played the same role he had in his young years he would have been unstoppable.
His handles are better and his shooting is better, better decision making, stronger etc.
You judjed him for his whole career based on his 20yo skills

He's doing great at his role but he's also on a max contract to be the 4th scoring option and maybe(?) 4th or 5th best player on the team.

I've seen people call him anywhere between 4th - 6th best player on this team

Are people actually putting Klay ahead of him? Or Poole? Or Looney?

Clear #3.. nostalgia going 2 ways if people see Wiggins as worse than Klay at this point

[SF_Warriors]

Wiggins has a limited skill profile

He has a very adequate skill profile taking in to account his athleticism.
If you give him the green light right not he can average 25ppg easily.
I totally disagree that the current role is the role that fits to him.
It is one more role that Wiggins can play. He can play any role you give to him, he really has no flaws in his game.
Near Jordan type athleticism, with good shooting, good decision making, no mistakes and turnovers.
He has not the egoism to demand the ball that is his biggest disappointing characteristic.

If wiggins could average 25ppg easily, he would have done so last year when klay was out.

[FNQ]

The same things again and again for Wiggins.
He sucked in Minesota (while he had a season averaging 24ppg and 20ppg for his career in Minesota),

There are ways to compliment Wiggins. Looking at the raw scoring average of a guy who was force-fed into inefficient volume scoring on a bad team isn't one of them.

he was a bad defender(how exactly can a bad defender become elite?), now he is just a role player(while his teammates are Curry, Thompson, Green and he seems to be as significant as Thompson and Green at least) and whatever else.

He wasn't initially a good defender. He certainly developed into a guy with a positive defensive reputation, however, and he mostly seems to be showcasing that with the Warriors as well. He's long and athletic and seems to largely be able to stay on his feet and stay in front of his guy. Seems to rotate well. Certainly has bought into Kerr's gameplan, which is probably the best thing he's done at either end of the floor.

Also, "just a roleplayer" is sort of an odd phrase. There is certainly a lot of star bias in the way many people discuss the game, but teams need their roleplayers to win. It isn't a pejorative to call someone a roleplayer when they aren't a focal option. Wiggins is fourth on the team in FGA/g during these playoffs, he simply isn't a feature player. That's a roleplayer. He slots into a role. He's a starter, the bulk of his offense comes set up by other players. About 2/3s of his 2pters and all of his 3s have been assisted so far in the postseason. In the regular season, just shy of 90% of his 3s were assisted and about 50% of his 2pters. He's been hot from the long 2 in the playoffs and maintaining his 3pt shooter from this RS, even as he's scored a little less. He's filled in nicely as the Warriors have needed him to. He's basically league-average in terms of scoring efficiency, which isn't remarkable, but the way he's doing it suits the Golden State machine, which is laudable. He just had a timely game, so emotional investment in his performance is high, hence this thread.

But yeah, I think people treat "roleplayer" like a dirty word. We have ever discussed a little more differentiation in labels past "star" and "roleplayer," because a lot of people think, like, "Derek Fisher" when they think "roleplayer," and the space is broader than that. Wiggins isn't a scrub just chewing minutes, he plays a part in the team's success, but he's clearly not a driving force, and what specifically he does (leastwise offensively) is fairly replaceable. His defensive improvement is nice, though, because it allows them to put another long-limbed, athletic guy out there who can switch pretty liberally, and that's quite helpful too.

Just to add to this: Wiggins was league average efficiency wise over the course of the season, yes.

He was well above league average (.598 TS%) when Draymond was healthy. Thats important, because Wiggins was entirely out of his element during that time. We had one less ballhandler, which obviously hurt him, but more importantly, he was guarding and being guarded by PFs at that time. He cratered both offensively and defensively as he tried to take the Draymond role on defense, and effectively had to shoot way, way too much on his own as well. Its what pushed him into the all-star game - he wasn't just good on defense, he was the best SF at challenging shots by over a full percentage point to end the season. And that included his disastrous run as our PF when Dray was hurt - something that was made even worse when we decided to plug Kuminga into the starting lineup for a while.

I think the roleplayer discourse is because most fans are acknowledging that he's not a top 2 scoring option on a winning team, which is valid, but it also undercuts the across-the-board improvements Wiggins has made. He's a better shooter - not that he's getting more open shots, a cursory look at NBA.com's Tracking > Shots Dashboard, comparing his MIN years with his GS years, can confirm that. His rebounding is better. His defense is much better. He was never leading the league in oFG% in Minnesota.

In fact the thing where he often gets hammered - offball defense - is more systemic than anything. How you fit into a certain system, how they use you. And he's been great at that too.

He's our 3rd best player and 3rd most important player. If he goes down, there is no Wiggins replacement. Without him, our perimeter defense is below average, something that can be verified by the Draymond injury stretch when Wiggins played mostly PF, and we all of a sudden went from dominant #1 defense to fringe top 20. Because we didnt just lose Draymond, we lost Wiggins by miscasting him as Draymond.

But I think a lot of Warrior fans wont acknowledge or understand this until Wiggins goes down for an extended period, they need to actually see the results

[vagelis]

Wiggins has a limited skill profile

He has a very adequate skill profile taking in to account his athleticism.
If you give him the green light right not he can average 25ppg easily.
I totally disagree that the current role is the role that fits to him.
It is one more role that Wiggins can play. He can play any role you give to him, he really has no flaws in his game.
Near Jordan type athleticism, with good shooting, good decision making, no mistakes and turnovers.
He has not the egoism to demand the ball that is his biggest disappointing characteristic.

If wiggins could average 25ppg easily, he would have done so last year when klay was out.

He had 18.6 points in 14.9 fga per game last year and 48 touches per game.
Nobody can score 25ppg having 48 touches per game. Give prime Jordan 48 touches per game and he will not score more than 20ppg.
Wiggins has always one of the leagues top-10 points per touch average. He scores a lot when he gets the ball

[FNQ]

Wiggins has a limited skill profile

He has a very adequate skill profile taking in to account his athleticism.
If you give him the green light right not he can average 25ppg easily.
I totally disagree that the current role is the role that fits to him.
It is one more role that Wiggins can play. He can play any role you give to him, he really has no flaws in his game.
Near Jordan type athleticism, with good shooting, good decision making, no mistakes and turnovers.
He has not the egoism to demand the ball that is his biggest disappointing characteristic.

If wiggins could average 25ppg easily, he would have done so last year when klay was out.

He could, it would just be ugly and an ode to his time in Minnesota.

If Wiggins wanted to average 25 pts, all he'd really need to do is improved his FT% to 75%, and go back to attacking the rim like when he first started here and was looking like he turned a corner with the FTs. Thats how you get him over 20ppg and still have him be effective. Otherwise he's way too scattershot offensively to be a top 2 option. He's a perfect 3rd scoring option, one that provides defense and rebounding as well. Slightly above average in a supplemental offense role, borderline elite defensively,

[SF_Warriors]

He has a very adequate skill profile taking in to account his athleticism.
If you give him the green light right not he can average 25ppg easily.
I totally disagree that the current role is the role that fits to him.
It is one more role that Wiggins can play. He can play any role you give to him, he really has no flaws in his game.
Near Jordan type athleticism, with good shooting, good decision making, no mistakes and turnovers.
He has not the egoism to demand the ball that is his biggest disappointing characteristic.

If wiggins could average 25ppg easily, he would have done so last year when klay was out.

He could, it would just be ugly and an ode to his time in Minnesota.

If Wiggins wanted to average 25 pts, all he'd really need to do is improved his FT% to 75%, and go back to attacking the rim like when he first started here and was looking like he turned a corner with the FTs. Thats how you get him over 20ppg and still have him be effective. Otherwise he's way too scattershot offensively to be a top 2 option. He's a perfect 3rd scoring option, one that provides defense and rebounding as well. Slightly above average in a supplemental offense role, borderline elite defensively,

If it would be ugly and inefficient, that is not "easily" in my book.