How many Years of Jokic/Giannis would you take over Peak Dirk?

[Matt15]

Title

[No-more-rings]

Jokic: 2022
Giannis: 2022, maybe 2021

[70sFan]

Jokic: certainly 2022, maybe 2021

Giannis: 2021, 2022, probably not 2019

[MyUniBroDavis]

Jokic: 2022
Giannis: 2022, maybe 2021

How is 2022 giannis above 2021 giannis at all lol

[HeartBreakKid]

Jokic: 2022, I think he has surpassed Dirk this year.

Giannis: None. He's not as good as Jokic from what I've seen.

[Colbinii]

I would take 2022 Jokic ahead of Dirk with 2021 having some major question regarding his defense [I take Dirk over 2021 Jokic].

I dont know if Giannis peaked higher than Dirk--in fact I dont think he did.

[No-more-rings]

Jokic: 2022
Giannis: 2022, maybe 2021

How is 2022 giannis above 2021 giannis at all lol

Because his passing and shooting looked improved to me, not sure what's funny about that.

[70sFan]

I would take 2022 Jokic ahead of Dirk with 2021 having some major question regarding his defense [I take Dirk over 2021 Jokic].

I dont know if Giannis peaked higher than Dirk--in fact I dont think he did.

Jokic: 2022, I think he has surpassed Dirk this year.

Giannis: None. He's not as good as Jokic from what I've seen.

What's your take on Giannis defense?

[70sFan]

Jokic: 2022
Giannis: 2022, maybe 2021

How is 2022 giannis above 2021 giannis at all lol

Because his passing and shooting looked improved to me, not sure what's funny about that.

I don't understand the laugh either, Giannis had more impressive RS (Bucks without Lopez in RS) and he wasn't any worse in PS, given that he faced ATG defense without Khris (he didn't face any great defense in 2021 and missed a few games vs Hawks).

In fact, Giannis improvements as a passer and isolation scorer makes me think that 2022 > 2021 is quite easy take. He didn't look any worse on defensive end either to me.

[No-more-rings]

How is 2022 giannis above 2021 giannis at all lol

Because his passing and shooting looked improved to me, not sure what's funny about that.

I don't understand the laugh either, Giannis had more impressive RS (Bucks without Lopez in RS) and he wasn't any worse in PS, given that he faced ATG defense without Khris (he didn't face any great defense in 2021 and missed a few games vs Hawks).

In fact, Giannis improvements as a passer and isolation scorer makes me think that 2022 > 2021 is quite easy take. He didn't look any worse on defensive end either to me.

Well I feel his defensive peak was either 2019 or 2020, but yeah this season and last have been his best offensive seasons. After this season I feel pretty confident you can't really stop him anymore. I'm not saying there isn't a defense that can do it, but there probably isn't one in the league currently. I mean his scoring efficiency wasn't good against Boston, 34/15/7 with 5.1 tov which is a lot, i mean his offense wasn't efficient overall but when you can put that kind of pressure on a team while filling up the stat sheet that has a lot of value. To me he's almost like a 6'11 Westbrook who is a high impact defensive player.

[70sFan]

Because his passing and shooting looked improved to me, not sure what's funny about that.

I don't understand the laugh either, Giannis had more impressive RS (Bucks without Lopez in RS) and he wasn't any worse in PS, given that he faced ATG defense without Khris (he didn't face any great defense in 2021 and missed a few games vs Hawks).

In fact, Giannis improvements as a passer and isolation scorer makes me think that 2022 > 2021 is quite easy take. He didn't look any worse on defensive end either to me.

Well I feel his defensive peak was either 2019 or 2020, but yeah this season and last have been his best offensive seasons. After this season I feel pretty confident you can't really stop him anymore. I'm not saying there isn't a defense that can do it, but there probably isn't one in the league currently. I mean his scoring efficiency wasn't good against Boston, 34/15/7 with 5.1 tov which is a lot, i mean his offense wasn't efficient overall but when you can put that kind of pressure on a team while filling up the stat sheet that has a lot of value. To me he's almost like a 6'11 Westbrook who is a high impact defensive player.

I think Giannis has been coasting on defense in RS last two years, but in terms of his ability in postseason, he didn't lose anything.

[Peregrine01]

Giannis: None. He's not as good as Jokic from what I've seen.

This is certainly not the typical view. Why do you think so?

[MyUniBroDavis]

How is 2022 giannis above 2021 giannis at all lol

Because his passing and shooting looked improved to me, not sure what's funny about that.

I don't understand the laugh either, Giannis had more impressive RS (Bucks without Lopez in RS) and he wasn't any worse in PS, given that he faced ATG defense without Khris (he didn't face any great defense in 2021 and missed a few games vs Hawks).

In fact, Giannis improvements as a passer and isolation scorer makes me think that 2022 > 2021 is quite easy take. He didn't look any worse on defensive end either to me.

Giannis isolation stats 2021
1.07ppp, 4.5 a game

Giannis isolation stats 2022
0.96ppp, 4.8 a game

The bucks blue box offense would mean losing Lopez wouldn’t tank giannis’s spacing either

I’m not against taking things into context, but there just has to be a level of, okay this is happened

In one regard, yes, 2022 giannis played a stifling defense that 2021 giannis would probably struggle with as well. I probably agree with 2021 giannis’s RS over 2022 giannis’s overall, but I also don’t view it as very relevant considering the bucks won in 2021

On the other hand, 2022 giannis had a great first round and was good in the second round against a defense very well equipped to guard him.

I’m not gonna say anything like “oh giannis sucked his effeciency was low”, obviously context matters, I don’t think it’s unfair to say he struggled offensively at times and missed some shots he normally hits, or that the offense was very stagnant at times. Obviously he had a huge load to carry but I think arguing that he played as well as he did the 2021 postseason would just be a bit unfair

I think he’s the best player in the nba still

Otoh, I think that comparing the 2021 postseason run, which was probably the best non lebron run of the past 10 years and arguably the best finals ever (I wouldn’t make that argument but it’s a discussion) yes, he missed two games in the ECF off kind of a freak accident, but realistically he shouldn’t have played till game 3 of the finals so him basically killing the suns while hurt and admitting that he’s still in pain and made him miss the start of training camp 3 months later

I agree matchups matter and Giannis matched up well against the suns, who were a 3rd rank defense.

but I don’t particularly understand the argument for 2021 giannis vs 2022 giannis based on what they actually did

2022 giannis had a dominant first round, and put up a great fight against a strong Celtics defense well equipped to guard him. He carried a huge load and while he did stumble at times as a whole he had a great performance

2021 giannis had a weak first round sweep (which was mostly from him being absolutely digester from three Tbf but yeah Miami gave him problems), destroyed the nets, was playing great against the hawks before getting hurt, and then absolutely annihilated the suns

I’ve said the argument of giannis’s D being as valuable in the playoffs as 2020 RS giannis, weather it be a adjustment thing, the nature of versatile defenders and playoff basketball, etc although I’m not set on that and where I rank giannis heavily depends on that

Beyond that, on the arguments of context, we have to then find a line somewhere, or you could make the argument that 2020 giannis and 2019 giannis only struggled in the playoffs because the bucks weren’t able to adjust to defenses stunting on drives, whereas in 2021 and 2022 while they still showed a weakness to it they played a 4 out 1 in system with them often using weakside rotations to get a small defender in the dunkers spot (so one of their guards) so the help would have a non existent effect, furthermore the 4 out 1 in position creates relatively harder gaps that are harder to stunt, which makes his passing (which to be clear, had improved between 2020 and 2021) seem more improved than it potentially may have been. His regular season may have been one of the greatest ever by impact metrics, in fact shotcharts luck adjusted rapm and regular rapm (if I’m not mistaken rapm is standardized for each year so we can’t compare raw numbers each year vs the differences right) and in regards to that it’s comparable to 2010 bron and 2016 curry in shotcharts vs the 2nd and 3rd place in terms of the relative gap, and some all in one metrics putting him higher

I would never make that argument though because of the playoffs, but then you could argue much of the blame wasn’t on him but on Bud and that he would have still excelled (although not to the same extent) in the new offensive system they employed, but what hypothetically happened isn’t what actually did and saying something like “2020 giannis mainly struggled in the playoffs because of coaching, and since his regular season was ATG, we should put that as his peak”

Again, I absolutely do not have giannis 2020 as his peak nor do I have it up there in all time peaks, but you could easily make an argument for it using that kind of logic.
Purely for giannis’s numbers, Khris being hurt<Bud ignoring adjustments

So when it comes to this particular situation, deciding a players peak, I’m all for checking out the context of what happened. But then we run into a issue of consistency snd a slippery slope

More so, the element of, what actually happened is important.

2022 giannis went out in the second round, he was dominant in an uncompetitive first round and carried a huge load in the second round. He probably struggled offensively in at least 3 of the games, keep in mind much of the bucks offense is based on giannis being a hyper effecient volume scorer, and while the celtics packed the paint and the bucks role players couldn’t make them pay, at times he definately was missing shots you expect him to hit. In particular giannis was missing a lot of shots in that mid paint area that he normally hits, and esp last playoff run. While some of this can be attributed to the good jobs the Celtics did, and they probably forced him closer to the edge of the paint than the mid paint, it’s also fair to say his touch was off and he was missing some shots he should have hit against Williams and smart for sure

2021 Giannis had one of the greatest finals ever and the best close out finals game ever. His playoff run as a whole was arguably a top ten one per player

Depending on how you rate his playoff defense it potentially is closer (closer not meaning in) to top 5 (per player).

saying that might be a bold claim is okay, I personally think it’s more on the edge of top ten probably, but when we think of the greatest playoff runs ever (might be missing one)

This isn’t meant to be an insulting thing to say, this is probably the only place where giannis getting hurt, missing two games that they won, coming back from an injury that he didn’t fully heal from 3 months later, which he described this March apparently something that completely tore in his knee (I think Google says he was describing his pcl but who knows) and Portis described him as having one knee, and the takeaway is “he missed game 5 and 6”

Like yeah if the hawks were a better team maybe they lose, and if capela doesn’t lank awkwardly like that and hyperextend his knee (obv it wasn’t dirty) maybe giannis drops 100 points against the suns lol

But in the perspective of what happened it’s hard to compare, valiant exit in the second round to a opponent that was a bad matchup vs all time great tier 1 playoff run with an arguably goat tier finals and probably the best finals close out ever, regardless of the fact he apparently played on one knee

[MyUniBroDavis]

Giannis: None. He's not as good as Jokic from what I've seen.

This is certainly not the typical view. Why do you think so?

Its probably a theoretical thing more so

if Jokic gets good help and gets a good deep playoff run in his current state and his defense is as solid as it was this RS throughout that run he’s probably one of the top peaks/seasons ever, and his offense seems pretty reselient Altho I do think that he was a good matchup against the Warriors

I don’t see how his season can be seen as good as 2021 giannis’s though that would be a bit odd. He had a good first round of course but the defense was definately an issue in that matchup

[HeartBreakKid]

Giannis: None. He's not as good as Jokic from what I've seen.

This is certainly not the typical view. Why do you think so?

I mean they both played at the same exact time this year and Jokic was better in both the RS and PS. One of the greatest RS of all time probably.

Unless I am to believe that Giannis is a substantially worse player than he was last year I don't see the controversy outside of Giannis has a ring while Jokic does not.

Jokic is going to be one of the best offensive players of all time - as a center. Giannis is a great two way player but isn't all time world shattering on either side of the ball. I haven't really seen Jokic have an absolutely terrible series yet, even the series where he is targeted defensively. I've seen Giannis have quite a few series where he is having problems.

I think Jokic is a better offensive player than Dirk (because of passing chasm), and probably is a better defender than peak Dirk was.

I think Giannis is still a top 30 peak guy.