Bob Cousy claps back at JJ Redick

[Fencer reregistered]

I just realized something. One of the biggest advocates of the importance of being better-conditioned that your opponent was Tom Heinsohn. He believed in just wearing down the other team by running all the time yourself. E.g., this is the one known coaching tip Brad Stevens got from him (whether or not he ever adopted it). Havlicek played first with an then for Heinsohn. Etc.

Yet Heinsohn was a smoker with a side career and also a sedentary hobby (painting). So the difference between how he took care of his body and how modern players do was ... significant.

[HomoSapien]

I just realized something. One of the biggest advocates of the importance of being better-conditioned that your opponent was Tom Heinsohn. He believed in just wearing down the other team by running all the time yourself. E.g., this is the one known coaching tip Brad Stevens got from him (whether or not he ever adopted it). Havlicek played first with an then for Heinsohn. Etc.

Yet Heinsohn was a smoker with a side career and also a sedentary hobby (painting). So the difference between how he took care of his body and how modern players do was ... significant.

Michael Jordan was a smoker and had a sedentary hobby of gambling.

[HomoSapien]

Read on Twitter

[TheBobster]

So Bob Cousy was one of the greatest players in professional basketball in 1950 (along with George Mikan, Dolph Schayes and a few others). How much better would he be if....

...he had better training methods?
...he had better sports medicine?
...he had better coaching and more leagues to play in grade school/high school?
...he had 75 years worth of play to study to improve his game?
...he traveled by plane first class instead of by train and/or bus?
...he earned enough money that he wouldn't have to take a summer job?
...he played in an era where traveling and carrying rules were relaxed?

[First Step]

Read on Twitter

lol, I’m sure Jerry took the call.

[Warspite]

Bunch of people that weren't around when Cousy played taking his side to be edgy and sound historical. JJ wouldn't make the nba back then? Foh

Playing in Chuck Taylors with no 3 point line and having to take smoke-filled trains and freezing cold buses around the country? He'd maybe be a mediocre benchwarmer if he time traveled back to 1957, sure.

Regardless he wouldnt be in the NBA because there are only 8 teams as opposed to 30.

[Fencer reregistered]

I just realized something. One of the biggest advocates of the importance of being better-conditioned that your opponent was Tom Heinsohn. He believed in just wearing down the other team by running all the time yourself. E.g., this is the one known coaching tip Brad Stevens got from him (whether or not he ever adopted it). Havlicek played first with an then for Heinsohn. Etc.

Yet Heinsohn was a smoker with a side career and also a sedentary hobby (painting). So the difference between how he took care of his body and how modern players do was ... significant.

Michael Jordan was a smoker and had a sedentary hobby of gambling.

Cigars aren't 2 packs per day.

[dhsilv2]

Cousy would have Kyrie handles in 2022 no cap

Possible. Just not the foot speed or shooting needed to be in the league.

Athletic traits like speed, quickness, leaping ability, strength, hands, accuracy: no difference between 1965 and 2022. The same caliber of athletes.

Learned skills like long range shooting and between the legs dribbling: each generation moved the needle, based on role models, practice, expectations, rule changes, and exploding salaries. There was no 3-point line till 1980, which completely changed what players worked on, and very little national TV exposure till around that same time.

It would be unfair and misleading to transport a Cousy in a time machine to 2022, but if he were born in 1995 and exposed to today's environment, he'd have been successful in today's league. Cousy in particular was only 6' or 6'1, and went way back to the early 50's to early 60's. His younger teammates (Sam & KC Jones, John Havlicek) were more prototypical of today's players. Sam Jones at age 25 would be the fastest player in the NBA today, was 6'4", and could shoot the daylights out with a classic jumper. If you look a decade later to the 70's, you had guys like Pete Maravich, Julius Erving, Lew Alcindor, Dave Cowens, and many other incredible athletes who would all be instant stars in today's game.

Cousy was showing his lack of athleticism in the 1960's! Now maybe that was the era and his body fell apart, but I'm not really sure it did. We saw a HUGE leap in NBA athletic ability from the 50's into the 60's and Cousy looked very dated very quickly as a result (MVP to allstar, not saying he could play). That doesn't mean he fell off completely as a player either, experience and knowledge of the game is EXTREMELY important for smaller guards and many such guards see their peak years a bit later in their careers than other positions.

The thing with looking at the past to looking at today is that tall, athletic, and skilled big men are unicorns among the human population. Those guys would be dominate in any era because there just aren't that many. Sure we have more today but it's not some massive gap. That's why the Wilt's and Shaqs will still today have a play in the league, we just don't have one of those alive right now in the right age range. But small guards? The athletic ability, skill, and build to be that today has absolutely changed. So while most stars of the past would still be stars today, Cousy is the the one odd ball former MVP who peaked in the 50's, NOT 60's who would most likely not translate to today. Not saying he couldn't, but he's the one who is MOST likely to not translate.

[cam24thomas]

Redick looks like he's going to have a heart-attack half the time he's on First Take

Something very wrong with Redick either physically or mentally that causes derangement, and you see it on his face and inability to listen to others without losing control of his emotions....

Stephen A. Smith gets criticized for losing his emotions, but actually Stephen is a very good listener, and incorporates comedy when he's frustrated, while Redick just looks really bitter and deranged

[Pennebaker]

So Bob Cousy was one of the greatest players in professional basketball in 1950 (along with George Mikan, Dolph Schayes and a few others). How much better would he be if....

...he had better training methods?
...he had better sports medicine?
...he had better coaching and more leagues to play in grade school/high school?
...he had 75 years worth of play to study to improve his game?
...he traveled by plane first class instead of by train and/or bus?
...he earned enough money that he wouldn't have to take a summer job?
...he played in an era where traveling and carrying rules were relaxed?

Cousy and his 50's era pals can only blame themselves for not being able to draw in more viewers to make more money so they could have all the things you listed.

The dunkers had to show up before money really started flowing into the league, so modern players really created these advantages for themselves on the back of their own efforts, something Cousy and his era were not capable of doing.

[Fencer reregistered]

Possible. Just not the foot speed or shooting needed to be in the league.

Athletic traits like speed, quickness, leaping ability, strength, hands, accuracy: no difference between 1965 and 2022. The same caliber of athletes.

Learned skills like long range shooting and between the legs dribbling: each generation moved the needle, based on role models, practice, expectations, rule changes, and exploding salaries. There was no 3-point line till 1980, which completely changed what players worked on, and very little national TV exposure till around that same time.

It would be unfair and misleading to transport a Cousy in a time machine to 2022, but if he were born in 1995 and exposed to today's environment, he'd have been successful in today's league. Cousy in particular was only 6' or 6'1, and went way back to the early 50's to early 60's. His younger teammates (Sam & KC Jones, John Havlicek) were more prototypical of today's players. Sam Jones at age 25 would be the fastest player in the NBA today, was 6'4", and could shoot the daylights out with a classic jumper. If you look a decade later to the 70's, you had guys like Pete Maravich, Julius Erving, Lew Alcindor, Dave Cowens, and many other incredible athletes who would all be instant stars in today's game.

Cousy was showing his lack of athleticism in the 1960's! Now maybe that was the era and his body fell apart, but I'm not really sure it did. We saw a HUGE leap in NBA athletic ability from the 50's into the 60's and Cousy looked very dated very quickly as a result (MVP to allstar, not saying he could play). That doesn't mean he fell off completely as a player either, experience and knowledge of the game is EXTREMELY important for smaller guards and many such guards see their peak years a bit later in their careers than other positions.

The thing with looking at the past to looking at today is that tall, athletic, and skilled big men are unicorns among the human population. Those guys would be dominate in any era because there just aren't that many. Sure we have more today but it's not some massive gap. That's why the Wilt's and Shaqs will still today have a play in the league, we just don't have one of those alive right now in the right age range. But small guards? The athletic ability, skill, and build to be that today has absolutely changed. So while most stars of the past would still be stars today, Cousy is the the one odd ball former MVP who peaked in the 50's, NOT 60's who would most likely not translate to today. Not saying he couldn't, but he's the one who is MOST likely to not translate.

He fell from First Team All-NBA to Second Team his last two seasons, when he was 33 and 34 years old, with the guys ahead of him being Oscar Robertson and Jerry West.

Big collapse.

[Fencer reregistered]

That said, I'll admit that there's a good comparison between Cousy and prime Rondo. Rondo had various physical advantages, as manifested especially on defense. Cousy was the better FT shooter. It's tough to compare decision making, since we have so little film on Cousy and the schemes are so different.

[TheBobster]

So Bob Cousy was one of the greatest players in professional basketball in 1950 (along with George Mikan, Dolph Schayes and a few others). How much better would he be if....

...he had better training methods?
...he had better sports medicine?
...he had better coaching and more leagues to play in grade school/high school?
...he had 75 years worth of play to study to improve his game?
...he traveled by plane first class instead of by train and/or bus?
...he earned enough money that he wouldn't have to take a summer job?
...he played in an era where traveling and carrying rules were relaxed?

Cousy and his 50's era pals can only blame themselves for not being able to draw in more viewers to make more money so they could have all the things you listed.

The dunkers had to show up before money really started flowing into the league, so modern players really created these advantages for themselves on the back of their own efforts, something Cousy and his era were not capable of doing.

Let's see - in 1950 ESPN, TNT and cable television didn't exist, regular television was in its infancy, so I don't know how you can expect them to get the same exposure, but let's say they did.

Would that have made 1950s medicine the same as it is now? Or airplane travel? Or are you saying dunking the basketball would make science and society itself jump ahead 70 years? Why didn't we think of that before?

Thanks for clarifying that for everyone.

[dhsilv2]

Athletic traits like speed, quickness, leaping ability, strength, hands, accuracy: no difference between 1965 and 2022. The same caliber of athletes.

Learned skills like long range shooting and between the legs dribbling: each generation moved the needle, based on role models, practice, expectations, rule changes, and exploding salaries. There was no 3-point line till 1980, which completely changed what players worked on, and very little national TV exposure till around that same time.

It would be unfair and misleading to transport a Cousy in a time machine to 2022, but if he were born in 1995 and exposed to today's environment, he'd have been successful in today's league. Cousy in particular was only 6' or 6'1, and went way back to the early 50's to early 60's. His younger teammates (Sam & KC Jones, John Havlicek) were more prototypical of today's players. Sam Jones at age 25 would be the fastest player in the NBA today, was 6'4", and could shoot the daylights out with a classic jumper. If you look a decade later to the 70's, you had guys like Pete Maravich, Julius Erving, Lew Alcindor, Dave Cowens, and many other incredible athletes who would all be instant stars in today's game.

Cousy was showing his lack of athleticism in the 1960's! Now maybe that was the era and his body fell apart, but I'm not really sure it did. We saw a HUGE leap in NBA athletic ability from the 50's into the 60's and Cousy looked very dated very quickly as a result (MVP to allstar, not saying he could play). That doesn't mean he fell off completely as a player either, experience and knowledge of the game is EXTREMELY important for smaller guards and many such guards see their peak years a bit later in their careers than other positions.

The thing with looking at the past to looking at today is that tall, athletic, and skilled big men are unicorns among the human population. Those guys would be dominate in any era because there just aren't that many. Sure we have more today but it's not some massive gap. That's why the Wilt's and Shaqs will still today have a play in the league, we just don't have one of those alive right now in the right age range. But small guards? The athletic ability, skill, and build to be that today has absolutely changed. So while most stars of the past would still be stars today, Cousy is the the one odd ball former MVP who peaked in the 50's, NOT 60's who would most likely not translate to today. Not saying he couldn't, but he's the one who is MOST likely to not translate.

He fell from First Team All-NBA to Second Team his last two seasons, when he was 33 and 34 years old, with the guys ahead of him being Oscar Robertson and Jerry West.

Big collapse.

because all nba teams were SOOOO good back then, lol.

[garrick]

JJ isn't wrong that the pioneers of basketball weren't athletic freaks but there isn't anything wrong with saying that.

The NBA today has the best athletes from around the world they'd generally be able to out run and out jump most of them today.

If those guys played in this era with the access to training and science and diet not to mention money that todays players have, don’t you think they’d be athletic freaks too? Talent is talent imo no matter what era you play in.

No it doesn't work that way with fast twitch muscle fibers because you can get all the training in the world and it isn't going to give you a 30 inch vertical if you previously couldn't even touch the rim, if there was some training that gave you significantly more fast twitch fibers basketball players would be athletic freaks right now that were previously limited athletically.

[KrAzY3]

A couple points.

First off, if you just go by the raw numbers the fact is the best basketball player in the NBA likely is not playing right now. Around 4,000 people have played in the NBA, there are around 500 playing right now. So, it is actually quite unrealistic to look at the current era guys and actually think they are better than the 3,500 that came before them.

That aside, Wilt Chamberlain competed in other sports so we can kind of get a reference to how athletic he actually was. While in college he competed in the shot put, and remember in college he was quite skinny (Wilt the Stilt). He was conference champion and his shot put numbers at the time don't hold up to the current shot put numbers of the best in the world (completely different physiques now). The thing is, his shot put numbers are actually better than the defending Olympic gold medalist in the decathlon.

So, way back then when dinosaurs walked the earth and the NBA didn't have great athletes, they actually had a guy who in his side hustle was better than the Olympic gold medalist "best athlete in the world" at an event they both competed in. Just trying to say these guys weren't exceptional athletes because it was a long time ago is nonsense.

[dribble1614]

uh, bob cousy was a better player than jj redick could've ever been. cousy is a hof'er, while redick isn't even close to that.

[Curmudgeon]

If Cousy had been allowed to palm the ball he would have averaged 20 dimes per game.

[Fencer reregistered]

A couple points.

First off, if you just go by the raw numbers the fact is the best basketball player in the NBA likely is not playing right now. Around 4,000 people have played in the NBA, there are around 500 playing right now. So, it is actually quite unrealistic to look at the current era guys and actually think they are better than the 3,500 that came before them.

That aside, Wilt Chamberlain competed in other sports so we can kind of get a reference to how athletic he actually was. While in college he competed in the shot put, and remember in college he was quite skinny (Wilt the Stilt). He was conference champion and his shot put numbers at the time don't hold up to the current shot put numbers of the best in the world (completely different physiques now). The thing is, his shot put numbers are actually better than the defending Olympic gold medalist in the decathlon.

So, way back then when dinosaurs walked the earth and the NBA didn't have great athletes, they actually had a guy who in his side hustle was better than the Olympic gold medalist "best athlete in the world" at an event they both competed in. Just trying to say these guys weren't exceptional athletes because it was a long time ago is nonsense.

I think Wilt's shotput numbers are fictional.

Bill Russell's high jump numbers are real, but that is one event that's very hard to make comparisons in, because of the massive change in technique.

[DavidSterned]

Cousy was showing his lack of athleticism in the 1960's! Now maybe that was the era and his body fell apart, but I'm not really sure it did. We saw a HUGE leap in NBA athletic ability from the 50's into the 60's and Cousy looked very dated very quickly as a result (MVP to allstar, not saying he could play). That doesn't mean he fell off completely as a player either, experience and knowledge of the game is EXTREMELY important for smaller guards and many such guards see their peak years a bit later in their careers than other positions.

The thing with looking at the past to looking at today is that tall, athletic, and skilled big men are unicorns among the human population. Those guys would be dominate in any era because there just aren't that many. Sure we have more today but it's not some massive gap. That's why the Wilt's and Shaqs will still today have a play in the league, we just don't have one of those alive right now in the right age range. But small guards? The athletic ability, skill, and build to be that today has absolutely changed. So while most stars of the past would still be stars today, Cousy is the the one odd ball former MVP who peaked in the 50's, NOT 60's who would most likely not translate to today. Not saying he couldn't, but he's the one who is MOST likely to not translate.

He fell from First Team All-NBA to Second Team his last two seasons, when he was 33 and 34 years old, with the guys ahead of him being Oscar Robertson and Jerry West.

Big collapse.

because all nba teams were SOOOO good back then, lol.

You literally just wrote that he was showing his lack of athleticism by the 1960s, which implies that relative to the rest of the league at that time he was looking limited. And yet he was clearly still considered a top PG in the league when he first retired in 1962-63. Can't have it both ways dude.