Bob Cousy claps back at JJ Redick

[Raps in 4]

Wow, this guy is extremely articulate for a 93 year-old.

[hugepatsfan]

"Bob Cousy can't dribble with his left hand!!" is objectively funny lol

Much respect to all the legends though. They paved the way.

[dhsilv2]

You literally just wrote that he was showing his lack of athleticism by the 1960s, which implies that relative to the rest of the league at that time he was looking limited. And yet he was clearly still considered a top PG in the league when he first retired in 1962-63. Can't have it both ways dude.

I address the mental aspect of the game that improves with age. I addressed that the selections for teams was poor. I'm not sure what more you want here. I stated his decline (or more directly, the improvement in athletic talent in the league) dropped him from a guy with MVP talent in the mid 50's to an allstar by the 60's.

But hey, just watch this game and tell me Cousy doesn't stand out as one of the least athletic guys on the floor.

Watch on YouTube

Or, just going out on a huge limb here, it was him going from his 20s to his mid 30s.

I wasn't the person who came up with this and did the research originally. I've watched footage, what we have, and it more than passes the sniff test. He doesn't look that different in the 50's moving, and he retired at 33...not sure I'd call that mid 30's.

Keep in mind TS%+ for Bob

52-57 he's 100-105, which is decent. Then at 29....

58 - 92
59 - 99 (not bad actually)
60 - 95
61 - 93
62 - 92
63 - 91

This also consigns with the Boston team dropping in offensive efficiency (the reason Cousy was seen so highly). Now I'll go ahead and counter with, they didn't really get better offensively without Cousy either. Either way, I struggle with a poor defensive point guard (and I believe that was the view on Cousy before Russell, and certainly the celtics were the worst defense in the league before BIll) who's calling card was offense running the worst offense in the league a number of years while still making all nba teams. It just screams his name and his team success was driving his selections and as the league got better around him, he became increasingly poor at scoring relative to his peers.

[soxfan2003]

I address the mental aspect of the game that improves with age. I addressed that the selections for teams was poor. I'm not sure what more you want here. I stated his decline (or more directly, the improvement in athletic talent in the league) dropped him from a guy with MVP talent in the mid 50's to an allstar by the 60's.

But hey, just watch this game and tell me Cousy doesn't stand out as one of the least athletic guys on the floor.

Watch on YouTube

Or, just going out on a huge limb here, it was him going from his 20s to his mid 30s.

I wasn't the person who came up with this and did the research originally. I've watched footage, what we have, and it more than passes the sniff test. He doesn't look that different in the 50's moving, and he retired at 33...not sure I'd call that mid 30's.

Keep in mind TS%+ for Bob

52-57 he's 100-105, which is decent. Then at 29....

58 - 92
59 - 99 (not bad actually)
60 - 95
61 - 93
62 - 92
63 - 91

This also conscinse with the Boston team dropping in offensive efficiency (the reason Cousy was seen so highly). Now I'll go ahead and counter with, they didn't really get better offensively without Cousy either. Either way, I struggle with a poor defensive point guard (and I believe that was the view on Cousy before Russell, and certainly the celtics were the worst defense in the league before BIll) who's calling card was offense being running the worst offense in the league a number of years while still making all nba teams. It just screams his name and his team success was driving his selections and as the league got better around him, he became increasingly poor at scoring relative to his peers.

Before Cousy came back for a cup of coffee, he retired in his mid 30's which is old for PG standards. I believe pretty much everyone at that age who took their conditions seriously except for perhaps world class sprinters probably on steroids gets a little slower.

Look at Cousy's last 4 years shooting free throws compared to his previous 4 years and I believe that largely explains his drop off in TS%+. He probably just legitimately lost a little shooting touch but in the areas of the court, unguarded the free throw line, he went from nearly 84% on average during a 4 year period to a little over 76% during a 4 year period. Unless I am mistaken that in itself will impact the numbers.

That really has very little to do with caliber of competition but perhaps an aging player who put in a little less work since the Celtics were winning titles every year anyways.

[tsherkin]

Look at Cousy's last 4 years shooting free throws compared to his previous 4 years and I believe that largely explains his drop off in TS%+. He probably just legitimately lost a little shooting touch but in the areas of the court, unguarded the free throw line, he went from nearly 84% on average during a 4 year period to a little over 76% during a 4 year period. Unless I am mistaken that in itself will impact the numbers.

Most guys don't tail off in FT%. His last two seasons were pretty bad by his standards, but his volume of drawn FTs was also lower, more likely the culprit. Point to be made, his career average was 44.6% TS; his TS% over his last two seasons was 44.3% and 44.8% (ignoring his 7-game return).

Cousy's scoring efficiency sucked ass even in his own era; he was a career 98 TS+ guy who had two seasons of 105 TS+ 4 seasons of 100 or 101 TS+ and was otherwise south of 100.

Scoring efficiency was never something he was good at.

[Curmudgeon]

Very few players today throw the long outlet pass as Cousy did, and the running hook shot is a lost art.

[dhsilv2]

Or, just going out on a huge limb here, it was him going from his 20s to his mid 30s.

I wasn't the person who came up with this and did the research originally. I've watched footage, what we have, and it more than passes the sniff test. He doesn't look that different in the 50's moving, and he retired at 33...not sure I'd call that mid 30's.

Keep in mind TS%+ for Bob

52-57 he's 100-105, which is decent. Then at 29....

58 - 92
59 - 99 (not bad actually)
60 - 95
61 - 93
62 - 92
63 - 91

This also conscinse with the Boston team dropping in offensive efficiency (the reason Cousy was seen so highly). Now I'll go ahead and counter with, they didn't really get better offensively without Cousy either. Either way, I struggle with a poor defensive point guard (and I believe that was the view on Cousy before Russell, and certainly the celtics were the worst defense in the league before BIll) who's calling card was offense being running the worst offense in the league a number of years while still making all nba teams. It just screams his name and his team success was driving his selections and as the league got better around him, he became increasingly poor at scoring relative to his peers.

Before Cousy came back for a cup of coffee, he retired in his mid 30's which is old for PG standards. I believe pretty much everyone at that age who took their conditions seriously except for perhaps world class sprinters probably on steroids gets a little slower.

Look at Cousy's last 4 years shooting free throws compared to his previous 4 years and I believe that largely explains his drop off in TS%+. He probably just legitimately lost a little shooting touch but in the areas of the court, unguarded the free throw line, he went from nearly 84% on average during a 4 year period to a little over 76% during a 4 year period. Unless I am mistaken that in itself will impact the numbers.

That really has very little to do with caliber of competition but perhaps an aging player who put in a little less work since the Celtics were winning titles every year anyways.

He retired at 33-34 and then came back at 40 for a VERY short stint in cincinnati. Again we see the first huge drop in 1958 when he shot 85% from the line, that's the 92 TS%+. We we JUST look at field goal percentage relative to the league.

51 99
52 101
53 95
54 103
55 103
56 93
57 100
58 92
59 97
60 94
61 90
62 92
63 90

So we see a similar pattern all be it, his free throw shooting enhanced his results in a few down years, but again the same basic pattern starts showing up. Keep in mind the first african americans to play in the NBA came in roughly when Cousy was entering the league in 51 (I believe the celtics drafted the first african american, but I don't think he played. Either way I believe that's roughly true). And obviously by the end of his career the league had a significant number of men of color playing. The NBA was rapidly changing over his career, perhaps more so than any other period in league history.

Just a side note but as we are pointing out his all nba selections. The 23 year old, all nba first team, point guard in 1951 (his rookie year), Ralph Beard, was banned from the NBA. We've really never had anything like that. The guy that should have been competing with Cousy for best point guard in the early 50's, at 23 years old and already seen as the best point in the game, banned for life.

[Memories]

I hope to whatever religious deity that we aren’t using athleticism as a measure of success in today’s era. Especially when guys like Jokic and Doncic exist.

[KrAzY3]

A couple points.

First off, if you just go by the raw numbers the fact is the best basketball player in the NBA likely is not playing right now. Around 4,000 people have played in the NBA, there are around 500 playing right now. So, it is actually quite unrealistic to look at the current era guys and actually think they are better than the 3,500 that came before them.

That aside, Wilt Chamberlain competed in other sports so we can kind of get a reference to how athletic he actually was. While in college he competed in the shot put, and remember in college he was quite skinny (Wilt the Stilt). He was conference champion and his shot put numbers at the time don't hold up to the current shot put numbers of the best in the world (completely different physiques now). The thing is, his shot put numbers are actually better than the defending Olympic gold medalist in the decathlon.

So, way back then when dinosaurs walked the earth and the NBA didn't have great athletes, they actually had a guy who in his side hustle was better than the Olympic gold medalist "best athlete in the world" at an event they both competed in. Just trying to say these guys weren't exceptional athletes because it was a long time ago is nonsense.

I think Wilt's shotput numbers are fictional.

Bill Russell's high jump numbers are real, but that is one event that's very hard to make comparisons in, because of the massive change in technique.

Wit's numbers are official numbers from the NCAA, they are not fictional.

[D.Brasco]

j.j. made a stupid, hamfisted comment but personally i don't pay much attention to basketball prior to the merger. it was like a different sport. i consider it a historical curiosity.

You don't think people will say the same thing (some do) about the NBA before the emergence of the primacy of the 3 point game over the the last 5+ years?

no.

People are literally saying that right now.

[Karate Diop]

redick has gone from "great podcastJJ" to "hot takeJJ" on espn
so cousy nails it

jj doesn't make the nba 40-60 years ago so of course he's all in on today's game

JJ easily makes the league 40-60 years ago, and is probably a star if we're going to be honest... Don't forget dude was a murderer in college.

[Fencer reregistered]

A couple points.

First off, if you just go by the raw numbers the fact is the best basketball player in the NBA likely is not playing right now. Around 4,000 people have played in the NBA, there are around 500 playing right now. So, it is actually quite unrealistic to look at the current era guys and actually think they are better than the 3,500 that came before them.

That aside, Wilt Chamberlain competed in other sports so we can kind of get a reference to how athletic he actually was. While in college he competed in the shot put, and remember in college he was quite skinny (Wilt the Stilt). He was conference champion and his shot put numbers at the time don't hold up to the current shot put numbers of the best in the world (completely different physiques now). The thing is, his shot put numbers are actually better than the defending Olympic gold medalist in the decathlon.

So, way back then when dinosaurs walked the earth and the NBA didn't have great athletes, they actually had a guy who in his side hustle was better than the Olympic gold medalist "best athlete in the world" at an event they both competed in. Just trying to say these guys weren't exceptional athletes because it was a long time ago is nonsense.

I think Wilt's shotput numbers are fictional.

Bill Russell's high jump numbers are real, but that is one event that's very hard to make comparisons in, because of the massive change in technique.

Wit's numbers are official numbers from the NCAA, they are not fictional.

I posted a debunking article a while back. I don't have a link to it now.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

googling wilt chamberlain debunk track and field brings up some stuff i haven't and probably won't read. I know nothing...I'm not sure what myths there are about him or alleged records he has or whatever that would need to be debunked.

Here's something from reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/9akkos/debunking_most_every_wilt_chamberlain_track_field/

[KrAzY3]

googling wilt chamberlain debunk track and field brings up some stuff i haven't and probably won't read. I know nothing...I'm not sure what myths there are about him or alleged records he has or whatever that would need to be debunked.

Here's something from reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/9akkos/debunking_most_every_wilt_chamberlain_track_field/

Look, I get that there's a lot of myths surrounding what Wilt did or didn't do, but even in that article they demonstrated his athletic prowess. I mean he did all of this as a freshman:
"1956 (Freshman)

High Jump - 6'4 7/8" (1st in Big Seven Freshmen meet)

Shot Put - 47'5.25" (3rd in Big Seven Freshmen meet)

Triple Jump - 46'2" (4th in Kansas Relays)"

You have to be a remarkable athlete to put up those kind of finishes in such a diverse group of events, while being one of the best basketball players in the world. My point remains that Wilt was obviously a remarkable athlete. It clearly wasn't just size and he clearly wasn't some sort of inferior slow plumber out there playing basketball.

[Admiral-Kizaru]

- They played in Chuck Taylors. How many of you own a pair of Chucks? Wonderful shoe. I dig them. But I'd NEVER even consider playing basketball in them. They're atrocious as an athletic shoe.

There are two types of shoes you wear to workout. Chucks. And no shoes at all! Now basketball, yeah gonna pass. Walking more than 100 feet? Yeah not wearing chucks. Working out? Chucks 100%

Yep, they're great shoes to squat and deadlift in. Same for old fashion vans.

[Fencer reregistered]

I wasn't the person who came up with this and did the research originally. I've watched footage, what we have, and it more than passes the sniff test. He doesn't look that different in the 50's moving, and he retired at 33...not sure I'd call that mid 30's.

Keep in mind TS%+ for Bob

52-57 he's 100-105, which is decent. Then at 29....

58 - 92
59 - 99 (not bad actually)
60 - 95
61 - 93
62 - 92
63 - 91

This also conscinse with the Boston team dropping in offensive efficiency (the reason Cousy was seen so highly). Now I'll go ahead and counter with, they didn't really get better offensively without Cousy either. Either way, I struggle with a poor defensive point guard (and I believe that was the view on Cousy before Russell, and certainly the celtics were the worst defense in the league before BIll) who's calling card was offense being running the worst offense in the league a number of years while still making all nba teams. It just screams his name and his team success was driving his selections and as the league got better around him, he became increasingly poor at scoring relative to his peers.

Before Cousy came back for a cup of coffee, he retired in his mid 30's which is old for PG standards. I believe pretty much everyone at that age who took their conditions seriously except for perhaps world class sprinters probably on steroids gets a little slower.

Look at Cousy's last 4 years shooting free throws compared to his previous 4 years and I believe that largely explains his drop off in TS%+. He probably just legitimately lost a little shooting touch but in the areas of the court, unguarded the free throw line, he went from nearly 84% on average during a 4 year period to a little over 76% during a 4 year period. Unless I am mistaken that in itself will impact the numbers.

That really has very little to do with caliber of competition but perhaps an aging player who put in a little less work since the Celtics were winning titles every year anyways.

He retired at 33-34 and then came back at 40 for a VERY short stint in cincinnati. Again we see the first huge drop in 1958 when he shot 85% from the line, that's the 92 TS%+. We we JUST look at field goal percentage relative to the league.

51 99
52 101
53 95
54 103
55 103
56 93
57 100
58 92
59 97
60 94
61 90
62 92
63 90

So we see a similar pattern all be it, his free throw shooting enhanced his results in a few down years, but again the same basic pattern starts showing up. Keep in mind the first african americans to play in the NBA came in roughly when Cousy was entering the league in 51 (I believe the celtics drafted the first african american, but I don't think he played. Either way I believe that's roughly true). And obviously by the end of his career the league had a significant number of men of color playing. The NBA was rapidly changing over his career, perhaps more so than any other period in league history.

Just a side note but as we are pointing out his all nba selections. The 23 year old, all nba first team, point guard in 1951 (his rookie year), Ralph Beard, was banned from the NBA. We've really never had anything like that. The guy that should have been competing with Cousy for best point guard in the early 50's, at 23 years old and already seen as the best point in the game, banned for life.

If your claim is that the rest of the league got better at scoring but Cousy stood still, then go for it. His FG% his last 2 seasons were the third-best and best (tie with 1954-5) of his career. But frankly his scoring stats seem very steady for numbers that would naturally be influenced by changes in teammates, scheme and so on.

[Billy Goat]

"Bob Cousy can't dribble with his left hand!!" is objectively funny lol

Much respect to all the legends though. They paved the way.

I understood what Reddick was trying to say but he came off like a total punk in the process. Have some humility. Not a surprise he's a Dukie I guess.

[DavidSterned]

I address the mental aspect of the game that improves with age. I addressed that the selections for teams was poor. I'm not sure what more you want here. I stated his decline (or more directly, the improvement in athletic talent in the league) dropped him from a guy with MVP talent in the mid 50's to an allstar by the 60's.

But hey, just watch this game and tell me Cousy doesn't stand out as one of the least athletic guys on the floor.

Watch on YouTube

Or, just going out on a huge limb here, it was him going from his 20s to his mid 30s.

I wasn't the person who came up with this and did the research originally. I've watched footage, what we have, and it more than passes the sniff test. He doesn't look that different in the 50's moving, and he retired at 33...not sure I'd call that mid 30's.

Keep in mind TS%+ for Bob

52-57 he's 100-105, which is decent. Then at 29....

58 - 92
59 - 99 (not bad actually)
60 - 95
61 - 93
62 - 92
63 - 91

This also consigns with the Boston team dropping in offensive efficiency (the reason Cousy was seen so highly). Now I'll go ahead and counter with, they didn't really get better offensively without Cousy either. Either way, I struggle with a poor defensive point guard (and I believe that was the view on Cousy before Russell, and certainly the celtics were the worst defense in the league before BIll) who's calling card was offense running the worst offense in the league a number of years while still making all nba teams. It just screams his name and his team success was driving his selections and as the league got better around him, he became increasingly poor at scoring relative to his peers.

He retired in the summer of 1963 at the age of 35, so yeah, he was in his mid 30s.

His statistics were very consistent through 1960. At that point he was 32, which is famously the age that most guards noticeably start to accelerate their decline. There was nothing unusual about his career trajectory in that sense.

[shakes0]

redick has gone from "great podcastJJ" to "hot takeJJ" on espn
so cousy nails it

jj doesn't make the nba 40-60 years ago so of course he's all in on today's game

JJ easily makes the league 40-60 years ago, and is probably a star if we're going to be honest... Don't forget dude was a murderer in college.

JJ with a time machine going back 40-60 years after already having benefitted from 40-60 years of human and basketball evolution?

Or are we talking about a JJ that is born in the 1940s without any of those massive advantages?

[JayMKE]

JJ if he had played 40-60 years ago probably would probably need to work as a plumber or fireman in his post playing days to support himself, he wouldn't have made nearly as much money and wouldn't get paid for yapping on tv & clickbait nonsense.