Will we ever know the truth about Fultz?

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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#21 » by HotelVitale » Sun May 22, 2022 1:44 pm

JN61 wrote:He was never that good. He was a bit of chubster in college, not that fast, not very good vision and so on. However it's absolutely true that issue he had affected his shot. But still fact remains he was not worth of first pick, even without stuff he had he would have been ultimately a first pick bust. Looking back he probably had talent to be in top 10 but definitely not first pick worthy. I don't even get why he was picked over other guys, I guess league was hell bent to find new Stephen Curry so they saw a guy who could shoot a bit in college (most can with poor defenses of kids playing) and a bit better athlete. Fultz ultimately put up numbers on a bad team.

To me it was always clear guy like Tatum was far better prospect. Big, pretty good shooter and with ball handling ability (just a bit slow for his size). Just what you want from today's wing.


I've been one of realgm's resident Fultz skeptics since he was at UW, and this is sounding kind of like nothing but a superficial hindsight hot take. Fultz was indeed very overrated by the usual draft hype machine, and there were lots of things that were sort of shaky about his profile that people were sweeping under the rug to anoint him a new super-prospect.

But everything you wrote sounds like half-baked nothingness. He wasn't a 'chubster' at all and he always had very very good speed--that's just facts--and what I think you're getting at is just that he wasn't particularly quick and couldn't burn guys off the bounce all day. Which, cool, no one said he was at draft time, he was always seen as a pn'r player rather than an iso guy. Also the idea that he was liked because he could 'shoot a bit in college' shows how little you understand of who Fultz was as a prospect--he was very long and had a great handle and finishing ability, he was absolutely deadly in college at pull-ups and creating his own shot on volume, he had massive pn'r potential as a shooter, driver, and playmaker. People liked Markelle Fultz as a 3-level lead creator with a great body and skillset, those are all totally distinct things from being a flamethrower college shooter. Problem is that he completely and utterly lost the one skill that allowed all that to make sense--a 3-level scorer suddenly become a one-level scorer, and he was never a good enough pure PG prospect to make his living that way. So once the shot left him, we never got to see who he was as a prospect at all.

Also I was a proponent of Tatum being in the mix for #1 but it was absolutely not clear that Tatum was a 'far better prospect.' In the simplest possible terms, since coming into the NBA Tatum has become one of the better and most impressive shooters in the entire NBA, after being a pretty mediocre shooter in college (numbers-wise that is). Fultz went from being one of the better shooters in college to being a complete and utter liability as a shooter. There was absolutely zero way of knowing that would happen for either player; a Tatum who's only a decent shooter isn't a particularly good shooter, while a Fultz who could drill pull-ups from anywhere and shoot 40%+ from 3 (both of which he did all day in college) is a very promising NBA prospect. Looking back now and saying 'see that's why you always take the big wing who can shoot and handle' is one of those eye-roll casual draft watcher comments that's as empty as your drunk uncle saying 'see Brady shows why you always go with a white player, they got better character and that's what matters once you get to the biggest stages.'
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#22 » by toodarkmark » Sun May 22, 2022 1:46 pm

People ignoring or pretending he doesn't have a condition is typical of some fandom. The truth doesn't get in the way of your need to bitch and complain.
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#23 » by Harry Garris » Sun May 22, 2022 2:11 pm

JN61 wrote:He was never that good. He was a bit of chubster in college, not that fast, not very good vision and so on. However it's absolutely true that issue he had affected his shot. But still fact remains he was not worth of first pick, even without stuff he had he would have been ultimately a first pick bust. Looking back he probably had talent to be in top 10 but definitely not first pick worthy. I don't even get why he was picked over other guys, I guess league was hell bent to find new Stephen Curry so they saw a guy who could shoot a bit in college (most can with poor defenses of kids playing) and a bit better athlete. Fultz ultimately put up numbers on a bad team.

To me it was always clear guy like Tatum was far better prospect. Big, pretty good shooter and with ball handling ability (just a bit slow for his size). Just what you want from today's wing.


I think this analysis is pretty tainted by hindsight. It's not that hard to understand why Fultz was so highly regarded by scouts. His shooting stroke in college was pure and his ability to pull up and hit deep shots off of the dribble was the primary reason he was appealing as an option for the #1 pick. He lost the very thing that made him such an appealing prospect. And even without a jump shot he's still found a way to be an impactful backup point guard in Orlando. I'd say that's impressive. There are very few guards in the NBA who can be a net positive for their team despite not being a threat to score at all outside of 15 feet.

I don't think he would have been as good as Tatum if he kept his jumper (and was also able to stay healthy). But he would have been a damn good player.

And maybe you were absolutely correct on Tatum. But if you were evaluating Tatum as a prospect at the time then you also knew he had some pretty major flaws in his game that prevented him from being the #1 prospect. He was a black hole on offense at Duke and had one of the worst shot selections that I had ever seen in a highly regarded college player. Thankfully, he has *mostly* overcome that in his NBA career. But scouts were worried about that part of his game going into the draft and rightly so.
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#24 » by Statlanta » Sun May 22, 2022 2:52 pm

I personally think he could be a great player if he played on a great cast like Wiggins.

He just played or plays for two teams that aren't the best at player development.
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#25 » by ropjhk » Sun May 22, 2022 3:11 pm

I just hope the worst of his shoulder issues are forever behind him and that he can go on to have a productive NBA career.
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#26 » by ConSarnit » Sun May 22, 2022 3:21 pm

gipper08 wrote:
uberhikari wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:even assuming this is 100% true, how did it arrive out of nowhere? injury? what injury?

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He 100% had it; he was diagnosed with it.

Apparently, there was something wrong with his nervous system. With the nerves between his neck and his armpit.



He did not 100% have anything anymore than Ben Simmons “required” back surgery.

Fultz had college 3 range but zero at nba 3. When he tried to expand his range it broke his brain.

Happens to many shooters. I am Steph Curry at 16 feet and I am Ben Simmons/Chuck Hayes at 20 feet.


He was shooting fine from 3 in the summer league (before his mysterious injury).

I don’t believe the TOS diagnosis. It wasn’t from PHI doctors and it was from something like the 10th doctor he saw privately. It’s a convenient injury that’s difficult to diagnose and difficult to fix. Perfect for someone who still needed a team to buy in that his shot would come around. If it was a motorbike accident then he would have been at risk of voiding his contract. If it’s the yips then it’s far more difficult to fix (and therefor less likely a team would be big money on him).

I’d guess 100% the yips. Just watch his play. Shots off the dribble: look fine. Wide open shots like 3’s or free throws: look terrible and hitchy, like exactly what happens with the yips when you have more time to think about your shot/throw/swing. TOS doesn’t explain why some of his shots look fine and some look terrible. If it were TOS all of his shots would look bad. TOS is a diagnosis his team sought out as a scapegoat injury.
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#27 » by Lalouie » Sun May 22, 2022 3:22 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:I think the way Fultz forgot how to shoot, turning his biggest strength into his major weakness is the weirdest development since I watch the NBA (excluding off the court stuff).
I have read different rumours, from a motorcicle injury to the hips to him deciding to change his mechanics to this misterious disease it was supposedly diagnosed him... will we ever know what the heck happened?

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if this was so, and considering many thinking him as a bust, then this would have been a great excuse for everyone involved - therefore this has to be BS.

i never liked his attitude from back @washington when the conversation of the week was "will fultz bring his Agame this time?".
to an article about the time he said the games bored him.

but often the simplest explanation is the best ...ie he couldn't cut it in the pros. why is every high school and collegiate talent supposed to succeed in the pros. oj didn't, so did he have some rare syndrome as well? i'll say this, fultz was the perfect candidate to fail. his year @washington was a 9win year,,,sandwiched in between two 20win seasons

one thing in sports that is rarely if ever corrected is attitude and personality. you are who you are. so if you ask me, he was a risk from day1
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#28 » by cupcakesnake » Sun May 22, 2022 3:23 pm

I have a friend with Thoracic Outlet Syndrome and asked him about it after hearing about the Fultz diagnosis (he's not a basketball fan or an athlete but when I told him people didn't believe Fultz he found it annoying!). He showed me the range of motion he had in his arms. He could only raise his arms about 45 degrees upwards. He could get them all the way up but not fluidly and not without pain. He also said his hands go numb a lot.

I'm sure Fultz has received the best treatment money can buy to mitigate the symptoms as best as possible. But looking at my friend, there's no way he could take a normal jump shot if he wanted to. It makes perfect sense with how Fultz shot has changed as well, way lower release, flinging it out in front of him.

It is annoying that people still doubt him or chalk this up to some kind of mental block. None of us would be balling with TOS.
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#29 » by ConSarnit » Sun May 22, 2022 3:26 pm

Lalouie wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:I think the way Fultz forgot how to shoot, turning his biggest strength into his major weakness is the weirdest development since I watch the NBA (excluding off the court stuff).
I have read different rumours, from a motorcicle injury to the hips to him deciding to change his mechanics to this misterious disease it was supposedly diagnosed him... will we ever know what the heck happened?

___
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if this was so, and considering many thinking him as a bust, then this would have been a great excuse for everyone involved - therefore this has to be BS.

i never liked his attitude from back @washington when the conversation of the week was "will fultz bring his Agame this time?".
to an article about the time he said the games bored him.

one thing in sports that is rarely if ever corrected is attitude and personality. you are who you are. so if you ask me, he was a risk from day1


Attitude doesn’t explain why his shot just flat out disappeared/broke.

He may have busted anyways but anyone claiming they foresaw him busting because he forgot how to shoot (maybe the only case in NBA history) is foolish.
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#30 » by basketballRob » Sun May 22, 2022 3:32 pm

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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#31 » by Lalouie » Sun May 22, 2022 3:41 pm

ConSarnit wrote:
Lalouie wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:I think the way Fultz forgot how to shoot, turning his biggest strength into his major weakness is the weirdest development since I watch the NBA (excluding off the court stuff).
I have read different rumours, from a motorcicle injury to the hips to him deciding to change his mechanics to this misterious disease it was supposedly diagnosed him... will we ever know what the heck happened?

___
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if this was so, and considering many thinking him as a bust, then this would have been a great excuse for everyone involved - therefore this has to be BS.

i never liked his attitude from back @washington when the conversation of the week was "will fultz bring his Agame this time?".
to an article about the time he said the games bored him.

one thing in sports that is rarely if ever corrected is attitude and personality. you are who you are. so if you ask me, he was a risk from day1


Attitude doesn’t explain why his shot just flat out disappeared/broke.

He may have busted anyways but anyone claiming they foresaw him busting because he forgot how to shoot (maybe the only case in NBA history) is foolish.


i'm not claiming he forgot how to shoot. i'm claiming his attitude was always bad, he was a loser at washington, and he's not the only elite talent to go bust in the pros. it's just that simple. scouts give elite talents a long leash,,,so they picked him as a #1 in spite of the flags
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#32 » by JayMKE » Sun May 22, 2022 3:59 pm

I don't know why people have such a hard time believing the diagnosis, its like some want to make it a moral failing that he didn't live up to expectations as a #1 pick.
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#33 » by alevirfe » Sun May 22, 2022 4:04 pm

jamaalstar21 wrote:I have a friend with Thoracic Outlet Syndrome and asked him about it after hearing about the Fultz diagnosis (he's not a basketball fan or an athlete but when I told him people didn't believe Fultz he found it annoying!). He showed me the range of motion he had in his arms. He could only raise his arms about 45 degrees upwards. He could get them all the way up but not fluidly and not without pain. He also said his hands go numb a lot.

I'm sure Fultz has received the best treatment money can buy to mitigate the symptoms as best as possible. But looking at my friend, there's no way he could take a normal jump shot if he wanted to. It makes perfect sense with how Fultz shot has changed as well, way lower release, flinging it out in front of him.

It is annoying that people still doubt him or chalk this up to some kind of mental block. None of us would be balling with TOS.


it's really odd seeing so much skepticism about this. when did basketball fans turn into doctors? it's like watching a basketball games entitles some people to diagnose injuries and mental health (and even worse, disagree with actual experts)
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#34 » by alevirfe » Sun May 22, 2022 4:08 pm

Statlanta wrote:I personally think he could be a great player if he played on a great cast like Wiggins.

He just played or plays for two teams that aren't the best at player development.


did you bother reading any other post? he has a condition that explains why his career was derailed. this has nothing to do with Philly or Orlando's player development
mintsa wrote: Yeah….the “new car smell” is starting to wear off with Scottie.

bongmarley wrote:I thought he was supposed to be an elite defender. He is horrible. On the perimeter he gets blown by everytime Its really bad
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#35 » by Lockdown504090 » Sun May 22, 2022 4:10 pm

toodarkmark wrote:People ignoring or pretending he doesn't have a condition is typical of some fandom. The truth doesn't get in the way of your need to bitch and complain.

GOATED post
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#36 » by cupcakesnake » Sun May 22, 2022 4:17 pm

alevirfe wrote:
jamaalstar21 wrote:I have a friend with Thoracic Outlet Syndrome and asked him about it after hearing about the Fultz diagnosis (he's not a basketball fan or an athlete but when I told him people didn't believe Fultz he found it annoying!). He showed me the range of motion he had in his arms. He could only raise his arms about 45 degrees upwards. He could get them all the way up but not fluidly and not without pain. He also said his hands go numb a lot.

I'm sure Fultz has received the best treatment money can buy to mitigate the symptoms as best as possible. But looking at my friend, there's no way he could take a normal jump shot if he wanted to. It makes perfect sense with how Fultz shot has changed as well, way lower release, flinging it out in front of him.

It is annoying that people still doubt him or chalk this up to some kind of mental block. None of us would be balling with TOS.


it's really odd seeing so much skepticism about this. when did basketball fans turn into doctors? it's like watching a basketball games entitles some people to diagnose injuries and mental health (and even worse, disagree with actual experts)


It's unfortunately something that just isn't going away in sports culture. The less understandable an injury (or mental health condition) is, the more skepticism there is. So many of accused Kawhi of faking something, and now we see he can rarely get through a season due to real physical injuries that started back then. I don't know how the Ben Simmons saga will end, but guy is getting chirped as he gets scheduled for back surgery. I wonder if the surgeons called him "soft" right before the general anaesthetic kicked in lol.

There's only been progress because we know more about some injuries. I remember when I was in grade 11, I partially tore my meniscus and was sitting out football practice and games. Since my teammates/coaches didn't know what a meniscus was at the time, I was getting constantly chirped, and basically getting called soft. I laugh about it now but it was pretty frustrating back in the day. I even remember one coach explaining to me in front of the team that a meniscus is really small so how could it be stopping me from running out of a stance!

I think people make up this fantasy that there's a lot of athletes who want to sit out games and don't like to compete and are looking for an excuse. Maybe that does happen every now and then, I don't know, but there's no way it's common enough that it's so many fans default assumption.

When we learn there's something ailing a player that's making them miss time or play poorly, maybe we should just accept that and move on rather than become armchair doctors and psychotherapists.
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#37 » by alevirfe » Sun May 22, 2022 4:17 pm

gipper08 wrote:
uberhikari wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:even assuming this is 100% true, how did it arrive out of nowhere? injury? what injury?

___
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He 100% had it; he was diagnosed with it.

Apparently, there was something wrong with his nervous system. With the nerves between his neck and his armpit.



He did not 100% have anything anymore than Ben Simmons “required” back surgery.

Fultz had college 3 range but zero at nba 3. When he tried to expand his range it broke his brain.

Happens to many shooters. I am Steph Curry at 16 feet and I am Ben Simmons/Chuck Hayes at 20 feet.


are you a Doctor? what gives you the authority to disagree with his diagnoses? or is this just a hunch :-?
mintsa wrote: Yeah….the “new car smell” is starting to wear off with Scottie.

bongmarley wrote:I thought he was supposed to be an elite defender. He is horrible. On the perimeter he gets blown by everytime Its really bad
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#38 » by bigbreakfast » Sun May 22, 2022 4:27 pm

alevirfe wrote:
jamaalstar21 wrote:I have a friend with Thoracic Outlet Syndrome and asked him about it after hearing about the Fultz diagnosis (he's not a basketball fan or an athlete but when I told him people didn't believe Fultz he found it annoying!). He showed me the range of motion he had in his arms. He could only raise his arms about 45 degrees upwards. He could get them all the way up but not fluidly and not without pain. He also said his hands go numb a lot.

I'm sure Fultz has received the best treatment money can buy to mitigate the symptoms as best as possible. But looking at my friend, there's no way he could take a normal jump shot if he wanted to. It makes perfect sense with how Fultz shot has changed as well, way lower release, flinging it out in front of him.

It is annoying that people still doubt him or chalk this up to some kind of mental block. None of us would be balling with TOS.


it's really odd seeing so much skepticism about this. when did basketball fans turn into doctors? it's like watching a basketball games entitles some people to diagnose injuries and mental health (and even worse, disagree with actual experts)


Thoracic outlet syndrome has 3 variants, neurologic (affecting the brachial plexus, a bundle of nerves that innervate the arm), venous (affecting the subclavian vein) and arterial (the subclavian artery). Neurologic is the most common one. Venous TOS is related to repetitive motion that produces thrombosis in the subclavian/axillary vein called Paget Schroetter Syndrome, seen in pitchers. Arterial is very rare.

Most physicians probably do not have experience with TOS other than reading about it or seeing it in training. The arterial and venous variants are easier to diagnose since it involves thrombosis. But the neurological variant is harder to diagnose. There's various physical tests that can reproduce symptoms that can give a clinician more information. As well as imaging tests that look for an extra rib that is thought to produce/contribute to the symptoms. Some order electromyographical testing. But the diagnosis isn't an "aha!" type of diagnosis.

If neurologic TOS is suspected the first thing to do is extensive physical therapy and if indicated, first rib resection or scalene resection.
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#39 » by gipper08 » Sun May 22, 2022 4:31 pm

ConSarnit wrote:
gipper08 wrote:
uberhikari wrote:
He 100% had it; he was diagnosed with it.

Apparently, there was something wrong with his nervous system. With the nerves between his neck and his armpit.



He did not 100% have anything anymore than Ben Simmons “required” back surgery.

Fultz had college 3 range but zero at nba 3. When he tried to expand his range it broke his brain.

Happens to many shooters. I am Steph Curry at 16 feet and I am Ben Simmons/Chuck Hayes at 20 feet.


He was shooting fine from 3 in the summer league (before his mysterious injury).

I don’t believe the TOS diagnosis. It wasn’t from PHI doctors and it was from something like the 10th doctor he saw privately. It’s a convenient injury that’s difficult to diagnose and difficult to fix. Perfect for someone who still needed a team to buy in that his shot would come around. If it was a motorbike accident then he would have been at risk of voiding his contract. If it’s the yips then it’s far more difficult to fix (and therefor less likely a team would be big money on him).

I’d guess 100% the yips. Just watch his play. Shots off the dribble: look fine. Wide open shots like 3’s or free throws: look terrible and hitchy, like exactly what happens with the yips when you have more time to think about your shot/throw/swing. TOS doesn’t explain why some of his shots look fine and some look terrible. If it were TOS all of his shots would look bad. TOS is a diagnosis his team sought out as a scapegoat injury.


Watch his pre draft workouts. He could not shoot nba threes.
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Re: Will we ever know the truth about Fultz? 

Post#40 » by alevirfe » Sun May 22, 2022 4:36 pm

jamaalstar21 wrote:
alevirfe wrote:
jamaalstar21 wrote:I have a friend with Thoracic Outlet Syndrome and asked him about it after hearing about the Fultz diagnosis (he's not a basketball fan or an athlete but when I told him people didn't believe Fultz he found it annoying!). He showed me the range of motion he had in his arms. He could only raise his arms about 45 degrees upwards. He could get them all the way up but not fluidly and not without pain. He also said his hands go numb a lot.

I'm sure Fultz has received the best treatment money can buy to mitigate the symptoms as best as possible. But looking at my friend, there's no way he could take a normal jump shot if he wanted to. It makes perfect sense with how Fultz shot has changed as well, way lower release, flinging it out in front of him.

It is annoying that people still doubt him or chalk this up to some kind of mental block. None of us would be balling with TOS.


it's really odd seeing so much skepticism about this. when did basketball fans turn into doctors? it's like watching a basketball games entitles some people to diagnose injuries and mental health (and even worse, disagree with actual experts)


It's unfortunately something that just isn't going away in sports culture. The less understandable an injury (or mental health condition) is, the more skepticism there is. So many of accused Kawhi of faking something, and now we see he can rarely get through a season due to real physical injuries that started back then. I don't know how the Ben Simmons saga will end, but guy is getting chirped as he gets scheduled for back surgery. I wonder if the surgeons called him "soft" right before the general anaesthetic kicked in lol.

There's only been progress because we know more about some injuries. I remember when I was in grade 11, I partially tore my meniscus and was sitting out football practice and games. Since my teammates/coaches didn't know what a meniscus was at the time, I was getting constantly chirped, and basically getting called soft. I laugh about it now but it was pretty frustrating back in the day. I even remember one coach explaining to me in front of the team that a meniscus is really small so how could it be stopping me from running out of a stance!

I think people make up this fantasy that there's a lot of athletes who want to sit out games and don't like to compete and are looking for an excuse. Maybe that does happen every now and then, I don't know, but there's no way it's common enough that it's so many fans default assumption.

When we learn there's something ailing a player that's making them miss time or play poorly, maybe we should just accept that and move on rather than become armchair doctors and psychotherapists.


yup, agreed & well said. people just get way too caught up in advancing their own agenda and have a hard time accepting anything that conflicts with their position.

for example with Fultz, many of the injury non-believers seem to also be the people who thought he wasn't worthy of a #1 pick/Fultz is a bust crowd

anyone who watches a clip of Fultz playing in college and compares it him in the NBA can easily see there's something wrong. if you ignore that then you clearly have another motive

ultimately we have to take players (and especially Doctors) at face value. they have the first hand knowledge and expertise
mintsa wrote: Yeah….the “new car smell” is starting to wear off with Scottie.

bongmarley wrote:I thought he was supposed to be an elite defender. He is horrible. On the perimeter he gets blown by everytime Its really bad

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