This board really needs to apologize to Andrew Wiggins

[Dubnation]

Warriors have to seriously think about keeping Wiggins and moving DrayGod.

lacob has never shipped anyone out for financial reasons..why would he start now?

Apparently he has told Myers to keep it under $400 million with the payroll and luxury tax. We are so lucky to have him and this group as our owners.

Which is quite remarkable since I don't see Lacob in the top 10 richest owners. How does he do it? Smoke & Mirrors?

A quick google shows these owners with deeper pockets.

Ann Walton Kroenke, Denver Nuggets | $9.1 Billion.
Joseph Tsai, Brooklyn Nets | $8.9 Billion. ...
Micky Arison, Miami Heat | $6.6 Billion. ...
Antony Ressler, Atlanta Hawks | $6.2 Billion. ...
Tom Gores, Detroit Pistons | $6 Billion. ...
Joshua Harris, Philadelphia 76ers | $5.7 Billion

Why aren't they doing something similar?

[Dubnation]

Read on Twitter

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[MrBigShot]

I also think calling him the 3rd-best Warrior is a little aggressive. He's been quite good for them, though, so at least entertaining the discussion is worthwhile.

This is something I brought up on the W's board a while back and I kinda wonder what the GB thinks

I've in the past avoided calling Wiggins our 3rd best player outright for this reason. I think he's our #3 option offensively when he's on the court, and I think he's our 3rd most important player. For me, "best" is kinda all-inclusive WRT other teams. For example - Wiggins is our 3rd scoring option because we almost always have 2 guys entrenched ahead of him on the court (Curry/Klay/Poole). So he almost always gets to slot into the role he's perfect for. But a lot of teams may not have that option, and its a lot harder and more important to find the 2 primary scoring options. So to some teams, Klay is 3rd best. Some might even have Poole ahead of him...

But for us, if he goes down, its a huge deal. Big domino effect. And while Dray and Curry share tier 1, I think Wiggins is alone in tier 2 there. We did survive without Klay for a long time, were #1 in the league even. Poole has stretches/games where he's more important to the other team. Its the worst time to say it, but Looney has limitations that usually prevent him from being an impact guy.

I love Klay but if you told me the Warriors had to pick between him and Wiggins going forward.. all things considered, I'd have to go Wiggins too. Klay's a great scorer and everything, but finding players who can play next to Draymond as well as Wiggins has, its a really tough thing to do. Everyone except Iguodala has had a rough learning period when they've joined up, and even Curry has a play or 2 per game where he and Dray miscommunicate. It's a premium for us, but not one that likely applies league wide

You are vastly underrating Poole imo. Poole's play this post season has been downright absurd, 20/5 on very close to 50/40/90. He is not far off of Steph in win shares per 48 either (0.172 vs 0.193). He's scored 27 or more (what wiggins put up tonight) 5 or more times this post season, including 2 performances where he was pretty clearly the best player on the entire floor. Not just on the warriors, best player on the entire floor. Once against Jokic/Nuggets and another against Morant/Grizzlies. He has stretches where he sucks but overall he's been really damn good for the warriors. And given how much time Steph spends off the ball, I think Poole's playmaking ability is pretty important to the warriors as well. Draymond is a terrific passer and leads the team in assists, but he can't break down a defense and create something out of nothing the way the primary playmakers for other teams are able to; his playmaking is a function of good court vision, unselfishness, and making intelligent reads within the offense.

Wiggins is consistent and the mix of three point shooting and defense he provides is great and all, but he's not a guy that wins games for you the way Poole can. He's more replaceable. And as great as his defense on Luka has been, Luka is still averaging a whopping 34ppg on 63 TS% this series.

I wont necessarily fault you for you maybe considering Wiggins over Klay moving forward, but that's because Klay is 5 years older earning 40 mil. I'm not sure there's any legitimate argument impact wise for Wiggins to be any higher than 4th most important player on the team, and you could argue he's not even 4th. Aside from that, there is definitely something to be said about how prolific a scorer Klay can be sometimes; when he gets hot he can carry the team offensively and steal you a game (OKC game 6).

[dc]

What for? A lot of players look great playing next to Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, and Draymond Green.

Harrison Barnes was pretty meh and uninspiring and just looked line an all around average player. And everyone thought Nick Young would be a natural fit but the dude was just lost in Kerr's system.

And yet Harrison Barnes managed 2 max contracts out of it. I always like Iggy and he's a very good player. But, do you really think he was a Finals MVP? Klay, Dray, and Steph draw a lot of attention.

I didn't say every player. I said a lot of players.

Barnes hit FA at the right time (cap spike). That was the same summer Solomon Hill got 4 years/$48M for averaging 4.2 ppg the prior year. Money was being handed out like candy.

Iggy by himself was always an excellent player and 1x all-star before ever getting to GS.

[michaelm]

lacob has never shipped anyone out for financial reasons..why would he start now?

Apparently he has told Myers to keep it under $400 million with the payroll and luxury tax. We are so lucky to have him and this group as our owners.

Which is quite remarkable since I don't see Lacob in the top 10 richest owners. How does he do it? Smoke & Mirrors?

A quick google shows these owners with deeper pockets.

Ann Walton Kroenke, Denver Nuggets | $9.1 Billion.
Joseph Tsai, Brooklyn Nets | $8.9 Billion. ...
Micky Arison, Miami Heat | $6.6 Billion. ...
Antony Ressler, Atlanta Hawks | $6.2 Billion. ...
Tom Gores, Detroit Pistons | $6 Billion. ...
Joshua Harris, Philadelphia 76ers | $5.7 Billion

Why aren't they doing something similar?

He is not the only owner, the value of the franchise has gone up astronomically (might be top 5 in the world for a sporting franchise now iirc) and he has sold off some equity. He needs the team to be successful business-wise to pay off the Chase Center in regard to which I believe they are of the view can make money from outside of basketball as well.

[Dubnation]

Apparently he has told Myers to keep it under $400 million with the payroll and luxury tax. We are so lucky to have him and this group as our owners.

Which is quite remarkable since I don't see Lacob in the top 10 richest owners. How does he do it? Smoke & Mirrors?

A quick google shows these owners with deeper pockets.

Ann Walton Kroenke, Denver Nuggets | $9.1 Billion.
Joseph Tsai, Brooklyn Nets | $8.9 Billion. ...
Micky Arison, Miami Heat | $6.6 Billion. ...
Antony Ressler, Atlanta Hawks | $6.2 Billion. ...
Tom Gores, Detroit Pistons | $6 Billion. ...
Joshua Harris, Philadelphia 76ers | $5.7 Billion

Why aren't they doing something similar?

He is not the only owner, the value of the franchise has gone up astronomically (might be top 5 in the world for a sporting franchise now iirc) and he has sold off some equity. He needs the team to be successful business-wise to pay off the Chase Center in regard to which I believe they are of the view can make money from outside of basketball as well.

Good points:

Below, check out Sportico's NBA team valuations for the 2021-22 season.
New York Knicks: $6.12 billion. ...
Golden State Warriors: $6.03 billion. ...
Los Angeles Lakers: $5.63 billion. ...
Brooklyn Nets: $3.61 billion. ...
Chicago Bulls: $3.53 billion. ...
Boston Celtics: $3.44 billion. ...
Los Angeles Clippers: $3.16 billion.

[nfmos]

lacob has never shipped anyone out for financial reasons..why would he start now?

Apparently he has told Myers to keep it under $400 million with the payroll and luxury tax. We are so lucky to have him and this group as our owners.

Which is quite remarkable since I don't see Lacob in the top 10 richest owners. How does he do it? Smoke & Mirrors?

A quick google shows these owners with deeper pockets.

Ann Walton Kroenke, Denver Nuggets | $9.1 Billion.
Joseph Tsai, Brooklyn Nets | $8.9 Billion. ...
Micky Arison, Miami Heat | $6.6 Billion. ...
Antony Ressler, Atlanta Hawks | $6.2 Billion. ...
Tom Gores, Detroit Pistons | $6 Billion. ...
Joshua Harris, Philadelphia 76ers | $5.7 Billion

Why aren't they doing something similar?

I really think he and his team have been "light years" ahead of everyone else, not just because of the on the court success, but the privately funded stadium, the complete integration and respect to the area and the history of the franchise, but most importantly i think the whole management and organizational structure would be an amazing case study for any business. They dont pinch pennies, but at the same time are committed to making sure if they are spending money, it has to be done for the very best reasons. Part of the reason they let go of Mark Jackson was because Lacob basically told him to spend as much as it took to surround himself with the very best in coaching and development coaches, but instead Jackson wanted to just keep yes men. They went out and got Jerry West to advise us, but at a certain point it didnt make sense to pay him to be a part time, remote advisor. They use a collaborative approach for all the decisions, but also in a very cool way, really treat everyone in the organization first as people instead of as numbers and trade chips. There has been so many examples of treating every employee in the organization as part of one big team, and always doing the right thing by the players. Who wouldnt want to work for that company or join that team, or buy into the team first mentality.

I mean on some level it also helps that Lacob was a pretty big fan of the team for a while, but its just amazing how they have run the organization not just as a sports team where all the old players network prevailed, but as an incredible modern business that anybody would want to work for.

[vagelis]

You all witnesssed Wiggins have big games when motivated against Lebron, against Warriors, against Timberwolves etc but noone said this except me.
I told it before playoffs, Wiggins most likely would rise in playoffs because he plays better when motivated.
The fact that he had his big games when it mattered for him was used against him.
But in fact this was an alarm that he will be a playoff performer

[FNQ]

I also think calling him the 3rd-best Warrior is a little aggressive. He's been quite good for them, though, so at least entertaining the discussion is worthwhile.

This is something I brought up on the W's board a while back and I kinda wonder what the GB thinks

I've in the past avoided calling Wiggins our 3rd best player outright for this reason. I think he's our #3 option offensively when he's on the court, and I think he's our 3rd most important player. For me, "best" is kinda all-inclusive WRT other teams. For example - Wiggins is our 3rd scoring option because we almost always have 2 guys entrenched ahead of him on the court (Curry/Klay/Poole). So he almost always gets to slot into the role he's perfect for. But a lot of teams may not have that option, and its a lot harder and more important to find the 2 primary scoring options. So to some teams, Klay is 3rd best. Some might even have Poole ahead of him...

But for us, if he goes down, its a huge deal. Big domino effect. And while Dray and Curry share tier 1, I think Wiggins is alone in tier 2 there. We did survive without Klay for a long time, were #1 in the league even. Poole has stretches/games where he's more important to the other team. Its the worst time to say it, but Looney has limitations that usually prevent him from being an impact guy.

I love Klay but if you told me the Warriors had to pick between him and Wiggins going forward.. all things considered, I'd have to go Wiggins too. Klay's a great scorer and everything, but finding players who can play next to Draymond as well as Wiggins has, its a really tough thing to do. Everyone except Iguodala has had a rough learning period when they've joined up, and even Curry has a play or 2 per game where he and Dray miscommunicate. It's a premium for us, but not one that likely applies league wide

You are vastly underrating Poole imo. Poole's play this post season has been downright absurd, 20/5 on very close to 50/40/90. He is not far off of Steph in win shares per 48 either (0.172 vs 0.193). He's scored 27 or more (what wiggins put up tonight) 5 or more times this post season, including 2 performances where he was pretty clearly the best player on the entire floor. Not just on the warriors, best player on the entire floor. Once against Jokic/Nuggets and another against Morant/Grizzlies. He has stretches where he sucks but overall he's been really damn good for the warriors. And given how much time Steph spends off the ball, I think Poole's playmaking ability is pretty important to the warriors as well. Draymond is a terrific passer and leads the team in assists, but he can't break down a defense and create something out of nothing the way the primary playmakers for other teams are able to; his playmaking is a function of good court vision, unselfishness, and making intelligent reads within the offense.

Wiggins is consistent and the mix of three point shooting and defense he provides is great and all, but he's not a guy that wins games for you the way Poole can. He's more replaceable. And as great as his defense on Luka has been, Luka is still averaging a whopping 34ppg on 63 TS% this series.

I wont necessarily fault you for you maybe considering Wiggins over Klay moving forward, but that's because Klay is 5 years older earning 40 mil. I'm not sure there's any legitimate argument impact wise for Wiggins to be any higher than 4th most important player on the team, and you could argue he's not even 4th. Aside from that, there is definitely something to be said about how prolific a scorer Klay can be sometimes; when he gets hot he can carry the team offensively and steal you a game (OKC game 6).

I’m vastly underrating Poole by putting him below Wiggins, not you vastly overrating him by comparing him to Curry?

ok

[FNQ]

What for? A lot of players look great playing next to Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, and Draymond Green.

Klay gets a lot of credit for the work the other 2 do

[G35]

I don't agree with you in your last paragraph but we have a nice conversation.
Hope Wiggins plays better from now on in order you like him even more

I like him fine, he's been a fantastic supporting player for the Warriors. The defensive gravity Curry has, coupled to the passing the Warriors display, really opens things up for Wiggins. Here and there, he'll drive and do something big because Golden State stretches the defense out so much that there are clear seams to attack and defenders can't really afford to help hard off of guys like Curry or Klay or Poole, which then makes someone like Wiggins quite valuable to their attack. He's been a very important part of their resurgence and this run towards the Finals. It's just a mistake to conflate that with the ability to prop up a team as the focal offensive player, that's all.

Why are you always saying what Steph does for Wiggins, as if Wiggins is not doing something for Steph.

Bottom line, what would happen if Warriors had to put Steph on Luka for defense? You don't think that would make Steph look bad? SVG and Reggie both pointed it out last night, that when Luka goes to the bench, Wiggins goes to the bench. When Luka checks back in the game...Wiggins checks back into the game.

That has been huge for the Warriors and thus huge for Steph. Why is only offense used as a contributing factor? One of the major reasons why Steph can do what he does is because he has a lot of other players to cover for him on defense. For example, look at what happened to CP3 in the last series, they hunted him out on defense and wore him down, if Steph had more defensive responsibility, he wouldn't look as good either.

Really, what the Warriors do best is find players that can fit into specific roles. This is why roles are good. Like Bill Belichik always says, do your job and we will win. Wiggins is doing his job and he's doing it on both ends of the floor. The Warriors are benefitting from Wiggins just as much as Wiggins is benefitting from being on the Warriors. Its not as one sided as you are making it.....

[tsherkin]

Why are you always saying what Steph does for Wiggins, as if Wiggins is not doing something for Steph.

Because while it's clear he's doing good things on defense, most everyone is only talking about him right now because of his offense, which is happening primarily because of Steph's gravity. Wiggins is slotting into Golden State in his role very nicely, but while his D has been very good (and has been mentioned several times in this thread), this conversation wouldn't even be happening if he wasn't also playing as well as he has been on offense.

Really, what the Warriors do best is find players that can fit into specific roles. This is why roles are good. Like Bill Belichik always says, do your job and we will win. Wiggins is doing his job and he's doing it on both ends of the floor. The Warriors are benefitting from Wiggins just as much as Wiggins is benefitting from being on the Warriors. Its not as one sided as you are making it.....

It's certainly true that Wiggins has been a big shot in the arm for the team, and that the Warriors have done well finding guys who can do that to significant effect.

[cupcakesnake]

As a Minnesota fan I'm realllllly rooting for Wiggins to have a revenge on Jimmy Butler moment in the finals.

That is all.

[Texas Chuck]

Not sure we owe him an apology. He was not a particularly good player in Minnesota. Oh he played every day and that's definitely not nothing, but he seemed mostly interested only in getting his 20 points and not really contributing to team success.

In Golden State he's taken a much more team-driven approach and he deserves a lot of credit and respect for becoming a vital piece on a contending level team. But that doesn't exempt him from the criticism his play warranted in previous seasons.

[Stromile12]

seems like a new player being this aggressive and using his athleticisim

[TinmanZBoy]

As a Minnesota fan I'm realllllly rooting for Wiggins to have a revenge on Jimmy Butler moment in the finals.

That is all.

How about the Boston Jays do the job for you first?

[G35]

Why are you always saying what Steph does for Wiggins, as if Wiggins is not doing something for Steph.

Because while it's clear he's doing good things on defense, most everyone is only talking about him right now because of his offense, which is happening primarily because of Steph's gravity. Wiggins is slotting into Golden State in his role very nicely, but while his D has been very good (and has been mentioned several times in this thread), this conversation wouldn't even be happening if he wasn't also playing as well as he has been on offense.

Really, what the Warriors do best is find players that can fit into specific roles. This is why roles are good. Like Bill Belichik always says, do your job and we will win. Wiggins is doing his job and he's doing it on both ends of the floor. The Warriors are benefitting from Wiggins just as much as Wiggins is benefitting from being on the Warriors. Its not as one sided as you are making it.....

It's certainly true that Wiggins has been a big shot in the arm for the team, and that the Warriors have done well finding guys who can do that to significant effect.

That's the bonus. His offense is a bonus. His primary role is not to provide offense, he's there to be a utility player and play defense. His defense has been exceptional and his offense has been really good.

That is the rub, just because a player can be put in a good situation does not mean every player takes advantage of it. In fact many players do not take advantage of being put in a good situation.

- Kyrie was in a good situation with Boston
- Harden was in a good situation in New Jersey
- Kawhi was in a good situation in San Antonio

In all honesty, you don't know if a player is in a good situation until after the fact...the player has to show this is a good situation for his abilities. That is the point of this thread, that Wiggins has shown he can make a good team better and Wiggins has.....

[tsherkin]

That's the bonus. His offense is a bonus. His primary role is not to provide offense, he's there to be a utility player and play defense. His defense has been exceptional and his offense has been really good.

I don't think it is a bonus. I think it's a significant part of his contribution, though his defense has been another large part of his value as well. With that, I can certainly agree.

That is the rub, just because a player can be put in a good situation does not mean every player takes advantage of it. In fact many players do not take advantage of being put in a good situation.

That's very true; Wiggins is doing a good job of accepting and filling his role. I have acknowledged as much in response to you and in several other spots earlier in this thread, so that's an easy one xD

In all honesty, you don't know if a player is in a good situation until after the fact...the player has to show this is a good situation for his abilities. That is the point of this thread, that Wiggins has shown he can make a good team better and Wiggins has.....

Mmm. No, I think we can often identify what is and isn't a good situation for a player at the time. Not always, of course, but yeah, pretty often. The original point of this thread seemed to be hyperbole, but yes, it's good to acknowledge that Wiggins has figured out how to take advantage of this new situation for himself and to the benefit of the Warriors. He's been very good in role, that part isn't really up for debate, nor has it been much ITT, from what I can tell.

[Big J]

What Wiggins is doing reminds me a lot of what Tim Thomas did in the 05/06 playoffs for the Phoenix Suns.

[facothomas22]

To be fair,Andrew Wiggins was putting up empty numbers when he was with the Timberwolves. He has only started to found his footing within the last year or so as the 3rd/4th option on a Championship contender. He still has underperformed as the 1st overall pick when many was expecting him to become a true Superstar.