Should the "guard defense isnt very impactful" narrative here be reconsidered or finished?

[GSP]

Having posted here for a decade one thing I learned was how much more impactful bigs are on defense than wings and then guards. Its been accepted maybe not by everyone but most that guard defense just isnt that impactful and it doesnt move the needle in player comps. I generally agreed over time.............but since the 3pt boom and how much more theyre used in Nba offenses it feels like guard defense has NEVER been more impactful in Nba history. If you have a poor point of attack defense youre absolutely boned against modern offenses and that starts with your guards

Last season we saw the Lakers have the best defense in the league despite Ad playing only 36!!! games and Bron only 45!! a huge part if not the biggest was Caruso, Denis and Kcp at the Poa. After they lost all 3 despite having a healthier Bron and Ad same coaching staff and schemes they became one of the worst defenses with Russ/Monk

Whether you agree with or not we just had a guard win Dpoy for the first time since Gary Payton and our switching scheme does not work without Smart being able to guard basically any position for brief possessions and minutes - he even got stops on Bam last game. If Kyrie was still on our team our defense would fall off a cliff even if we had the same defenders everywhere else and I think that speaks to the importance in having a great guard defender like Smart VS a bad guard defender in Kyrie

In the playoffs even more its getting harder and harder to justify that claim specially with how much more teams hunt mismatches and most often it is against weak defensive guards and that affects and can tank an entire defense. Look at what Miami did to Trae whos one of the worst defenders in the league. They made him unplayable. Memphis defense is one of the most drastic differences Ive ever seen with Ja VS without Ja. They had no answer for Warriors offense with Ja and had to rely on trading buckets. After he got hurt they were shutting them down for nearly 3 whole games but just couldnt score enough on the other end. And it was a theme all Rs too how much better their defense is.

There are many other examples of bad guard defenders getting exposed. Even back when Isaiah Thomas was leading us and his defense got brutally exposed by Bron and Cleveland. We even won our lone game when Isaiah was out and replaced by Avery Bradley while we were down 30-50 in other games with him. Mitchells matchups going supernova from Murray to Brunson when your guard cant stop penetration or dissuade an opponents scheme from starting what your big does behind that becomes less relevant since you need to be able to contain the guard or defend before the rest of the actions start. With how much offenses are geared towards starting out at the 3pt line now. From off screen actions or pick and roll it seems like guard defense has never been more impactful.

A guard that can contain penetration and fight through screens just has a massive defensive impact in todays league IMO - the Smarts, Jrues, Carusos really seem to match up with some of the better defensive bigs today. Maybe not the absolute best but alot of them. Theres just no way you can watch Jrue Holidays defense win Bucks 2 extremely close games they prolly shouldnt have won and point to something like Drpm and say guard defense isnt that impactful. Offenses arent mainly run through the post anymore and Rudy Gobert an alltime rim protector the thing that makes bigs mostly most impactful on defense has had consistent struggles against modern 3pt offenses with his impact less and less in playoffs. Bigs just dont have as much impact on defense like they used to while guards/wings have more now. Thoughts?

[70sFan]

Guard defense was always important. Not nearly as important as bigs, but still important.

[Jaivl]

I agree with both.

It's for sure the most valuable it's ever been, but still seems to lag behind traditional elite rim protection (by +/- data).

"Guard defense does not matter" has always felt like a bit of a cop-out and a simplification, but not a terrible one because I feel it's true that most star guards (the subjects of most of our comparisons) have historically not been that impactful either way (positively or negatively), but just by chance, not due to limitations inherent to the position. Older guys like Kidd have absolutely moved the needle there, a lot.

[carlquincy]

One of the stupidest argument that was accepted as truth in RGM.

[Threezus]

Hawks are living proof of this right now it's our biggest issue on the entire team. Our Guard defense and perimeter defense is god awful. Atleast with Trae you can counter that with elite tier offense and offset it some. But when you pair that with Bogi and Huerter who can go weeks without giving you more than 10 ppg and give at times worse defense than Trae does without the offense trae gives. Then it just destroys the team and our talented bigs in Collins and Capela who have good defense down low doesn't matter as much because teams just shoot all day long in the mid range to 3 point range with very little defense against em.

[penbeast0]

One of the stupidest argument that was accepted as truth in RGM.

Having been here a while, I can say it was never "accepted as truth." People have made the claim, just as they make the claim that greats from the 50s like Bob Pettit or George Mikan would be the equivalent of division 2 college players today but it's always been vigorously pushed back against . . . by me among others.

[Dutchball97]

I do think people on both sides of the argument tend to underestimate differences between eras. The more perimeter oriented the game becomes the more valuable perimeter defenders become, while the capability of a big to impose his will on defense becomes less over time. I still think bigs are the most important defenders in the modern game but the gap between them and perimeter players is definitely getting smaller.

[carlquincy]

One of the stupidest argument that was accepted as truth in RGM.

Having been here a while, I can say it was never "accepted as truth." People have made the claim, just as they make the claim that greats from the 50s like Bob Pettit or George Mikan would be the equivalent of division 2 college players today but it's always been vigorously pushed back against . . . by me among others.

You are definitely among the minority in that case. I mean just look at how the OP is framed.

[HeartBreakKid]

I don't think that was ever a thing? It's relative.

Guards are not as impactful on defense compared to forwards or centers on average just as centers are not as impactful on offense as guards on average. That's not the same thing as saying they do not matter. Of course they matter otherwise a lot of small ass people would be in the NBA.

[eminence]

Tier 1 offensive guards being at a bit of a downtick (Steph/Luka/??) right now may help out a little bit as well, it's just harder to offensively slow the true top tier of offensive guys. Bigs seeing an uptick with Jokic/Embiid/Giannis.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

It's important but you need multiple good guard defenders to really take advantage of it, the way Chicago did at the beginning of the year.
One big man can do more than one guard, in terms of raising the floor of your defense. To raise your ceiling, though, it's imperative to not have weak defenders or the opponents can hunt them.

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[Ryoga Hibiki]

Hawks are living proof of this right now it's our biggest issue on the entire team. Our Guard defense and perimeter defense is god awful. Atleast with Trae you can counter that with elite tier offense and offset it some. But when you pair that with Bogi and Huerter who can go weeks without giving you more than 10 ppg and give at times worse defense than Trae does without the offense trae gives. Then it just destroys the team and our talented bigs in Collins and Capela who have good defense down low doesn't matter as much because teams just shoot all day long in the mid range to 3 point range with very little defense against em.

the message has never been that guard defense is useless, but that ONE guard can't have the same impact of ONE rim protector

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[Peregrine01]

Good thread. I think it's more important than ever before for the reasons you cited. But also: the importance of defensive coaching has never been higher either. The Warriors ended up with an elite defense this year while not having any elite defensive guards other than GP2. A big reason for that is how well they rotate and switch and you don't get those seamless transitions in the defense without great defensive coaching, culture and players who buy in.

[RCM88x]

I think this probably spawns out of the fact that defense and particularly perimeter defense was evaluated so poorly for such a long time. People would look at things like steals and block as a way to gauge defense when in reality those stats don't do a very good job of displaying impact.

[parsnips33]

Guard defense was always important. Not nearly as important as bigs, but still important.

Do you think the relative value of the two has changed in recent years?

[capfan33]

I don't think it was ever a thing that guard defense "isn't impactful", just that the best guards aren't as impactful as the best bigs.

Moreover, I think it may be a bit harder to judge perimeter defense compared to interior defense which muddies the whole impact argument even more.

[70sFan]

Guard defense was always important. Not nearly as important as bigs, but still important.

Do you think the relative value of the two has changed in recent years?

I don't think so, although I'd have to look more into data. I know that less shots inside and more perimeter oriented offense would suggest that perimeter defenders are more important, but at the same time teams are doing better job at avoiding the best defenders than ever before.

Perimeter defense as a whole might be more valuable than ever before, but I think it's more visible on team perspective, not individual impact.

[oaktownwarriors87]

I don't think it was ever a thing that guard defense "isn't impactful", just that the best guards aren't as impactful as the best bigs.

Moreover, I think it may be a bit harder to judge perimeter defense compared to interior defense which muddies the whole impact argument even more.

Even if guards aren't as impactful as bigs, it should all be relative to their position.

KD might be an average defender for a forward, but almost everyone will say he's more valuable than elite guards on defense because of his size. Well, this is a 5v5 league and KD needs a small guard to handle the rock since he lacks the handles, mobility and creativity.

This weakness and dependence on a smaller guard on offense has now turned into a weakness on defense. You can't tell me a guy is better because he's bigger when that same guy needs to be on the floor with smaller people in order to be successful.

[tsherkin]

Even if guards aren't as impactful as bigs, it should all be relative to their position.

KD might be an average defender for a forward, but almost everyone will say he's more valuable than elite guards on defense because of his size. Well, this is a 5v5 league and KD needs a small guard to handle the rock since he lacks the handles, mobility and creativity.

This weakness and dependence on a smaller guard on offense has now turned into a weakness on defense. You can't tell me a guy is better because he's bigger when that same guy needs to be on the floor with smaller people in order to be successful.

That seems a little disjointed.

The notion here is that bigs (with the appropriate skill and talent) are able to exert a more significant impact on defense, specifically. This is true. This was the case in the earliest days of the NBA because of shot volume at the rim, and that has remained true because teams still want to get to the rim for the highest-percentage shots. A good, mobile big can help bust up screen action, can deter shots in a wide space around the rim, will be a better defensive rebounder, etc, etc. The different ways in which they can affect a defense are much broader than what you'll get out of a guard, and most especially out of a small and/or POA guard (particularly now, as screens have become the default instead of an occasional option or specialty).

The remark about KD doesn't make a lot of sense because you're talking about a guy who scores like a SF and uses his height to advantage against smaller defenders (especially with his high release). Meantime, as far as creativity and passing and handling, he's been a 5.4 apg player and has been pretty decent about moving the ball. He isn't a visionary like Lebron, but he's better at moving the ball and advancing it across the time line than you seem to be implying. Far better, in fact, that a lot of his contemporaries from the 80s and 90s. It helps him to have a guard who handles so he doesn't have to do everything for himself, and his scoring skill set is such that he can share the ball pretty well with a ball-dominant guy. "Need" is not the correct word, but it's a style of player with which he pairs well enough because he can post a bit and he's good off-ball. He still does a lot of isolation play, of course, but it's not a huge problem for him to be off-ball.

I think you're confusing cap's comment, which was addressing defense, not total player value.

[Lou Fan]

I still think guard defense isn't very impactful compared to bigs especially historically. The gulf has narrowed some but it's still there and the gulf narrowing may be more down to the fact that in today's game it's harder for 1 person regardless of position to have a ton of defensive impact. 19 Raptors are emblematic of what great defense looks like in modern NBA. Each defender was a plus defender and the impact data gave each of them a relatively even share of the credit with it increasing from Pg to the center (Gasol) receiving the most.