1974 Kareem vs 1994 Hakeem

[uberhikari]

Surprised nobody has linked this part of Odinn21’s unfinished project

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2126018

What happened to Odinn21? Is he/she alright?

[tihsad]

Well, some would say that being on KG level is not that bad...

I agree that Hakeem peaked quite high on offensive end. I just think that Kareem was clearly better offensive player and I'm not sure if Hakeem could shorten the gap on defensive end. It's certainly possible, but I'm leaning towards "no" in this case. Kareem was just absurdly dominant two-way player.

If we use a level playing field of rules from 1960 to the present there might not be better offensive player then KAJ, but there is the other side of the court. I can't see the argument for prime Kareem being a better defender then prime Hakeem.

I can't either, but Kareem was monstrous defender in his prime as well. Less versatile than Hakeem, but extremely dominant himself.

I looked at this a little more over the past couple days and might take back what I said and how I voted. Modern fans (myself included) know what Hakeem did, but the more I look at 74' it might be even more of a carry. Dandridge was fine, but Oscar was close to done at this point and things get soft quickly on that Bucks team. Kareem was many steps past anyone on either team in the 74' finals. As far as their head to head, both dominated great centers - but I don't see 94' Ewing being a great step up over 74' Cowens. I tend to think of 72ish to 77' as wilderness seasons for Kareem, largely as result of personal items in his life, but 74' is a big argument against that idea.

[tihsad]

double post

[capfan33]

If we use a level playing field of rules from 1960 to the present there might not be better offensive player then KAJ, but there is the other side of the court. I can't see the argument for prime Kareem being a better defender then prime Hakeem.

I can't either, but Kareem was monstrous defender in his prime as well. Less versatile than Hakeem, but extremely dominant himself.

I looked at this a little more over the past couple days and might take back what I said and how I voted. Modern fans (myself included) know what Hakeem did, but the more I look at 74' it might be even more of a carry. Dandridge was fine, but Oscar was close to done at this point and things get soft quickly on that Bucks team. Kareem was many steps past anyone on either team in the 74' finals. As far as their head to head, both dominated great centers - but I don't see 94' Ewing being a great step up over 74' Cowens. I tend to think of 72ish to 77' as wilderness seasons for Kareem, largely as result of personal items in his life, but 74' is a big argument against that idea.

Kareem was generally fine in the 72 playoffs and I've never understood why people criticize him for the 72 conference finals when you consider the circumstances. 73 he was **** against Thurmond who was admittedly by far his worst matchup.

You are correct, the 74 run was a historic, I repeat historic carry job. While I'm not a huge fan of box score numbers, there was a New York Times article that was written during Lebron's 2018 playoff run. It noted that Lebron accounted for almost 33% of his teams numbers in the big 5 boxscore numbers (PTS, REB, AST, STL, BLK). In the 40 years that these have been tracked, no one else was above 30 except.....Kareem in 1974.

And moreover, unlike Lebron who got swept (not at all his fault obviously), they nearly won the damn finals despite this. If Luscius Allen was healthy, theres a chance Kareem in 74 would've been the only player ever to win a finals while contributing more than 30% of his teams major box score stats. It's a severly underrated carry job that honestly is up there with his most impressive accomplishments, which is saying something.

[henshao]

You are correct, the 74 run was a historic, I repeat historic carry job. While I'm not a huge fan of box score numbers, there was a New York Times article that was written during Lebron's 2018 playoff run. It noted that Lebron accounted for almost 33% of his teams numbers in the big 5 boxscore numbers (PTS, REB, AST, STL, BLK). In the 40 years that these have been tracked, no one else was above 30 except.....Kareem in 1974.

And moreover, unlike Lebron who got swept (not at all his fault obviously), they nearly won the damn finals despite this. If Luscius Allen was healthy, theres a chance Kareem in 74 would've been the only player ever to win a finals while contributing more than 30% of his teams major box score stats. It's a severly underrated carry job that honestly is up there with his most impressive accomplishments, which is saying something.

I don't want to make it seem like I'm trying to diminish that statistical masterwork, but as a reminder, Hakeem led his team in every statistical category (by totals):



I don't know what percentage that makes up, but it's got to be at least equally as ridiculous

[tihsad]

I can't either, but Kareem was monstrous defender in his prime as well. Less versatile than Hakeem, but extremely dominant himself.

I looked at this a little more over the past couple days and might take back what I said and how I voted. Modern fans (myself included) know what Hakeem did, but the more I look at 74' it might be even more of a carry. Dandridge was fine, but Oscar was close to done at this point and things get soft quickly on that Bucks team. Kareem was many steps past anyone on either team in the 74' finals. As far as their head to head, both dominated great centers - but I don't see 94' Ewing being a great step up over 74' Cowens. I tend to think of 72ish to 77' as wilderness seasons for Kareem, largely as result of personal items in his life, but 74' is a big argument against that idea.

Kareem was generally fine in the 72 playoffs and I've never understood why people criticize him for the 72 conference finals when you consider the circumstances. 73 he was **** against Thurmond who was admittedly by far his worst matchup.

You are correct, the 74 run was a historic, I repeat historic carry job. While I'm not a huge fan of box score numbers, there was a New York Times article that was written during Lebron's 2018 playoff run. It noted that Lebron accounted for almost 33% of his teams numbers in the big 5 boxscore numbers (PTS, REB, AST, STL, BLK). In the 40 years that these have been tracked, no one else was above 30 except.....Kareem in 1974.

And moreover, unlike Lebron who got swept (not at all his fault obviously), they nearly won the damn finals despite this. If Luscius Allen was healthy, theres a chance Kareem in 74 would've been the only player ever to win a finals while contributing more than 30% of his teams major box score stats. It's a severly underrated carry job that honestly is up there with his most impressive accomplishments, which is saying something.

Sold. Even if we discount Kareem a bit via time and CBA (which I do per the latter), I can't see an argument for him being worse then Hakeem simply off the numbers (you might have tape that further demonstrates). 1974 is a gonzo season for Kareem .

[capfan33]

I don't want to make it seem like I'm trying to diminish that statistical masterwork, but as a reminder, Hakeem led his team in every statistical category (by totals):



I don't know what percentage that makes up, but it's got to be at least equally as ridiculous

Hakeem's run in 1994 was obviously incredible but purely going off of this it's not an outlier historically. It's essentially on par with an average Jordan or Lebron playoff run, about 28% I think. And as I said, not a huge fan of box score stats by themselves, but in this case they do a good job demonstrating that Kareem did all this with very limited support and almost won despite that.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/08/sports/basketball/lebron-nba-finals.html

[falcolombardi]

I don't want to make it seem like I'm trying to diminish that statistical masterwork, but as a reminder, Hakeem led his team in every statistical category (by totals):



I don't know what percentage that makes up, but it's got to be at least equally as ridiculous

Hakeem's run in 1994 was obviously incredible but purely going off of this it's not an outlier historically. It's essentially on par with an average Jordan or Lebron playoff run, about 28% I think. And as I said, not a huge fan of box score stats by themselves, but in this case they do a good job demonstrating that Kareem did all this with very limited support and almost won despite that.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/08/sports/basketball/lebron-nba-finals.html

couldnt you argue hakeem defense making up the boxscore gap?

[capfan33]

I don't want to make it seem like I'm trying to diminish that statistical masterwork, but as a reminder, Hakeem led his team in every statistical category (by totals):



I don't know what percentage that makes up, but it's got to be at least equally as ridiculous

Hakeem's run in 1994 was obviously incredible but purely going off of this it's not an outlier historically. It's essentially on par with an average Jordan or Lebron playoff run, about 28% I think. And as I said, not a huge fan of box score stats by themselves, but in this case they do a good job demonstrating that Kareem did all this with very limited support and almost won despite that.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/08/sports/basketball/lebron-nba-finals.html

couldnt you argue hakeem defense making up the boxscore gap?

You definitely could, but honestly I'm not even sure 74 Kareem is worse defensively than 94 Hakeem. Early Kareem was a DPOY caliber defender who basically lead the #1 defense in the league. By 94 Hakeem had slipped a decent amount on that end even though he was still excellent.

Peak for peak Hakeem is obv better but in this instance even if Hakeem's better I'm not sure it's by that much. And once again, outside of Dandridge it's not like Kareem was surrounded by incredible defenders.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

With all due respect to David Robinson and Patrick Ewing (whom I rank, though both were incredible talents, in the 2nd tier or lower of the best fives in NBA history) Hakeem had only one real top tier five to play against for his career--Shaquille O'Neal. Having seen most of the great ones, I don't think he would have fared as well and have the slightly bloated rep he has if he'd had to play against Wilt, Russ, Nate, and some others. And to be fair to today's guys (to prove that it's not just my prejudice for the old timers) I think he might also have really struggled against guys like Embiid and Jokic...I know it's my signature to say this, but I personally think Wilt anywhere near his prime would have flat out destroyed him.

When you're talking KAJ--and remember, I'm not a great fan of his, always considered him a little snobby and arrogant for my taste-- you're talking one of the few all-time bona fide undisputed greats at the center position. In my opinion, Hakeem doesn't measure up to that level, anywhere or at any time, dream shake or no dream shake.

Funny how dismissive you are of 94 Hakeem when he was 31....whereas your hero Wilt at the same age of 31 as 94 Hakeem couldn't even win vs Boston up 3-1 in the series.

There is little to no evidence of "prime Wilt" destroying any HOF C that came (even more laughable a top 5 Csnter at his peak) after him considering he hardly ever did it in his era. The only time he really destroyed (67) Russell was when his role radically changed and Russell no longer had Auerbach as his coach.

Peak Wilt that won a title wasn't even a high volume scoring C as we all know he wasn't good enough to do so in such a role......unlike Kareem and Hakeem. 1 1/2 years of prime Wilt he was leading teams to the worst regular season records any prime HOF C produced.

31-49 in 62-63

And was very fortunate Philly threw him a lifesaver as his Warriors started out 11-27. Even with 2nd year Nate Thurmond.

Hyperbole.