2006/2009 D-Wade or 2021/2022 Jokic

[No-more-rings]

22 Jokic is completely tiered up over every year mentioned ITT.

I'm alright with that, sort of. I see 2022 Jokic as sort of wedged between Wade and say Bird/Magic for peaks. Bird and Magic being ahead of Wade but not so much so that a comparison should be laughed off.

Lost weight and took his defense at least two tiers up and improved on raw shot creation.

Every single impact metric of that can be found has Jokic tiered up over the entire league in a way Wade wasn’t.

Which impact metrics are you referring to?

Wade was not separate from the Nash’s and Dirk’s of the league in these years, by the metrics. Which I take over box scores sand narratives. Or at least give more weight to.

Depends which years you're talking about. Wade was cleanly ahead of those guys in 06, 09 and 10(2 of those years are the ones we're discussing).

High impact lesser role guys like Garnett and Ginobili will rate Wade level on impact metrics in 09.

RAPM doesn't account for minutes at all though. Someone with say a +6 RAPM but playing 30 mpg isn't going to be as valuable as +6 at 38 mpg.

He was not some ridiculous outlier. On raw skill he is clearly worse than Jokic, categorically. He can’t run an offense better, and he never reached the defensive highs.


Jokic guarded the pick and roll better than near any big man and managed to get down and rebound like peak Wilt defensively simultaneously.

Ok this is reaching quite a bit here. Defended and rebounded like Wilt now? I mean if you really believe that Jokic was like an almost dpoy type defender then I can see why you'd think he's way better than Wade. Though if that was true Jokic would likely be the goat peak of anyone.

This was not some regular MVP player season. Wade can be compared to literally any high volume lead guard ever in their athletic peak. Westbrook, Nash, Paul, Kobe, Harden, etc. strengths, weaknesses.

Nah not exactly. Westbrook was clearly worse than peak Wade. Nash was a way worse defender which would be even more visible in today's league, Paul and Harden never won jack **** and Paul until he finally got on loaded teams did he actually make any kind of noise in the postseason.

I want to say also, 21 Jokic also tiered up over the league statistically. A league with prime Curry, Giannis, Embiid.

Over Giannis no he wasn't. Not that I understand this argument, I can say if Lebron wasn't at peak level in 09 and 10 that Wade would be likely looking at an mvp and 2 straight years at league leading advanced stats.

Anyway I appreciate your explanation but don't think we'll come to agree on much here. I won't argue how great Jokic's offense is, there isn't much to dispute there, I think where we'll differ is you see Jokic as this legitimately elite defensive big man, I don't I think he's a good one but not Elite and his postseason defense maybe wasn't even that. I personally don't consider Wade just some run of the mill superstar guard either. Teams like the Pistons or Celtics of that time couldn't keep Wade out of the paint, I don't know how teams like the Suns, Warriors or Celtics of today are going to stop him from getting 35 every night. Also with all the increased emphasis on shooting and perimeter play in general, Wade's defense arguably take a jump as well with his help defense and shot blocking.

[CodeBreaker]

Wade had Jordanesque peak. I'd pick him over Jokic's peak which is similar to Magic's.

Just for fun, would you take Wade's peak over Magic's peak?

No. Magic's peak was on a higher tier

[ShotCreator]

22 Jokic is completely tiered up over every year mentioned ITT.

I'm alright with that, sort of. I see 2022 Jokic as sort of wedged between Wade and say Bird/Magic for peaks. Bird and Magic being ahead of Wade but not so much so that a comparison should be laughed off.

Lost weight and took his defense at least two tiers up and improved on raw shot creation.

Every single impact metric of that can be found has Jokic tiered up over the entire league in a way Wade wasn’t.

Which impact metrics are you referring to?

Wade was not separate from the Nash’s and Dirk’s of the league in these years, by the metrics. Which I take over box scores sand narratives. Or at least give more weight to.

Depends which years you're talking about. Wade was cleanly ahead of those guys in 06, 09 and 10(2 of those years are the ones we're discussing).

High impact lesser role guys like Garnett and Ginobili will rate Wade level on impact metrics in 09.

RAPM doesn't account for minutes at all though. Someone with say a +6 RAPM but playing 30 mpg isn't going to be as valuable as +6 at 38 mpg.

He was not some ridiculous outlier. On raw skill he is clearly worse than Jokic, categorically. He can’t run an offense better, and he never reached the defensive highs.


Jokic guarded the pick and roll better than near any big man and managed to get down and rebound like peak Wilt defensively simultaneously.

Ok this is reaching quite a bit here. Defended and rebounded like Wilt now? I mean if you really believe that Jokic was like an almost dpoy type defender then I can see why you'd think he's way better than Wade. Though if that was true Jokic would likely be the goat peak of anyone.

This was not some regular MVP player season. Wade can be compared to literally any high volume lead guard ever in their athletic peak. Westbrook, Nash, Paul, Kobe, Harden, etc. strengths, weaknesses.

Nah not exactly. Westbrook was clearly worse than peak Wade. Nash was a way worse defender which would be even more visible in today's league, Paul and Harden never won jack **** and Paul until he finally got on loaded teams did he actually make any kind of noise in the postseason.

I want to say also, 21 Jokic also tiered up over the league statistically. A league with prime Curry, Giannis, Embiid.

Over Giannis no he wasn't. Not that I understand this argument, I can say if Lebron wasn't at peak level in 09 and 10 that Wade would be likely looking at an mvp and 2 straight years at league leading advanced stats.

Anyway I appreciate your explanation but don't think we'll come to agree on much here. I won't argue how great Jokic's offense is, there isn't much to dispute there, I think where we'll differ is you see Jokic as this legitimately elite defensive big man, I don't I think he's a good one but not Elite and his postseason defense maybe wasn't even that. I personally don't consider Wade just some run of the mill superstar guard either. Teams like the Pistons or Celtics of that time couldn't keep Wade out of the paint, I don't know how teams like the Suns, Warriors or Celtics of today are going to stop him from getting 35 every night. Also with all the increased emphasis on shooting and perimeter play in general, Wade's defense arguably take a jump as well with his help defense and shot blocking.

I didn’t say Jokic was Wilt level defensively overall, just that he is obviously better than Wade, and that he rebounded better than Wilt.

Jokic led the league in box outs per game and pick and roll efficiency allowed simultaneously, that’s absurd.


As far as stats, EPM, LEBRON, RPM, RAPTOR, 180 day RAPM, all paint the same picture of Jokic being an entire level of the league for the second year in a row

Wade had a knack for treating truly elite defenses like they were mediocre, at times, with certain matchups.

When facing Chicago who had Ben Gordon and Hinrich who were small enough to match his quickness a bit, but still strong enough to stay with his explosion, he was contained pretty well.

Wade sits in a rare spot for a guard, having PG quickness in a great body for a wing. Much like Jordan. But other guys have entire skills within the game over him. He’s not closing that gap with raw quickness and speed. In the actual year of 2009, Paul was just better than Wade on both ends, while younger. Wade was not outlier good, he was regular good. I think his peers are the regular superstar guards. He’s out of his depth when compared to a guy with the strengths of KG and Nash combined in one package.



And why would this era buff Wade’s offense AND defense? That doesn’t make sense to me.

Wade was gambler with good instincts defensively.

He didn’t have the attention span or the instincts to capitalize on offenses with low risk. He just athletically blew plays up and got burned at times for it.

Ironaically when he got slower in Miami with LeBron, his defense was peaking because he wasn’t trying to snipe everything with his speed all the time.

He’d still get burned like that. Actually worse now with how much smarter offenses are.


Jokic is just unable to guard Curry in isolation. But if he were on a team like the Grizzlies in place of Ja, things would be way different surrounded by guards who live to fight through screens. On a team like current Memphis Jokic would be leading a dynasty. I mean probably Wade too but not as good, and he wouldn’t allow them to play that free flowing style that really made them so dominant on both ends. Jokic would raise the ceiling to insane levels.

[70sFan]

Morant would dominate Jokic-led defense. Jokic isn't bad defender, but he's very mediocre rim protector.

[falcolombardi]

calling jokic "nash + garnett" is kinda wild

jokic is not in garnett planet as a defender, he is a garnett-like defensive rebounder, not a garnett lile overall defender

and while he is a incresible offensive player, surely in nash league, he is not nash, he cannot use ball handling to get the same kind of penetrations or pull up jumpers than nash can

he has other kind of advantages over nash offensively but he is not like nash

[70sFan]

calling jokic "nash + garnett" is kinda wild

jokic is not in garnett planet as a defender, he is a garnett-like defensive rebounder, not a garnett lile overall defender

and while he is a incresible offensive player, surely in nash league, he is not nash, he cannot use ball handling to get the same kind of penetrations or pull up jumpers than nash can

he has other kind of advantages over nash offensively but he is not like nash

At the half of the season I got called out for not believing Jokic is GOAT level player by him. He seems to be way higher on Jokic than any other poster here. I don't find the idea of Jokic shutting down Grizzlies offense convincing either.

I also disagree that Paul was better on both ends of the floor in 2009 than Wade, but that's another matter.

[No-more-rings]

As far as stats, EPM, LEBRON, RPM, RAPTOR, 180 day RAPM, all paint the same picture of Jokic being an entire level of the league for the second year in a row

Lukathegoat normally posts these type of numbers, i might quote him to see if he'll weigh in on this because Wade usually looks pretty legit in 1 or 3 year peaks by those stats.

Though I'd mention again, that if Wade didn't overlap with peak impact Lebron he'd have 2 league leading RAPM seasons and one of those would be by an "entire level" above others.

When facing Chicago who had Ben Gordon and Hinrich who were small enough to match his quickness a bit, but still strong enough to stay with his explosion, he was contained pretty well.

Wade led the Heat to a +4.5 ORTG in that series, 7.2 apg with a reasonably low 3.6 tov, probably one of this better playmaking series. And in any case averaged 25.5/5.5/ 2.5 tov 67.2 ts% in the last 2 games which both were nearly blowouts. Don't think Wade was really contained at all, and certainly not shut down. Doesn't seem like a worse series that what Jokic showed against Phoenix for example.

They didn't contain him unless you're talking about 07 when he was too hurt to even be playing.

in the actual year of 2009, Paul was just better than Wade on both ends, while younger.

Well no, and I'm not sure what the reason would be besides that you just like Paul more.

Wade was not outlier good, he was regular good. I think his peers are the regular superstar guards. He’s out of his depth when compared to a guy with the strengths of KG and Nash combined in one package.

Jokic isn't in KG's stratosphere as an athlete or or all around defensive player, let's not resort to hyperbole. You can debate if his offense is as good as Nash's. They're definitely not comparable style wise, Nash was an energizer Bunny running around pulling up for wet jumpers and finding guys with crazy passes through his driving. Jokic gets way more passes through him getting doubled. He utilizes that extremely well, but he's not Nash as an all around playmaker. Wade isn't either, but Wade's all around creation gets undervalued because he's not an atg passer, but his slashing is near goat level, and he creates a lot through that even if he doesn't get a direct assist or his pass isn't as "wow" as others. We've seen defenses geared to focuse on and try to stop Wade and they just couldn't. The same can be said for Jokic sure.

And why would this era buff Wade’s offense AND defense? That doesn’t make sense to me.

Wade was gambler with good instincts defensively.

He didn’t have the attention span or the instincts to capitalize on offenses with low risk. He just athletically blew plays up and got burned at times for it.

Ironaically when he got slower in Miami with LeBron, his defense was peaking because he wasn’t trying to snipe everything with his speed all the time.

He’d still get burned like that. Actually worse now with how much smarter offenses are.

A lot of this just isn't true. Elgee's tracking showed Wade to be a really low mistake defender. Wade always had major contributions to the Heat defenses which were typically good or even great. The Nuggets only had one top 10 defense with Jokic, not that he was even the reason for it.

[MyUniBroDavis]

As far as stats, EPM, LEBRON, RPM, RAPTOR, 180 day RAPM, all paint the same picture of Jokic being an entire level of the league for the second year in a row

Lukathegoat normally posts these type of numbers, i might quote him to see if he'll weigh in on this because Wade usually looks pretty legit in 1 or 3 year peaks by those stats.

I should add that RAPTOR and RPM both kind of suck for various reasons

EPM has Jokic as best in the league, but not by some sort of absurd outlier, hes 3rd in the past 6 years which obviously is great, behind 2016 curry and 2019 harden, most of the best years are around +8 to +9 (I feel closer to 9 usually) and Jokic is at 9.4. This only goes back to 2014

Rolling DPM puts Giannis as a clear best in the league if you look at a season snapchot

LEBRON has it for Jokic as well by a pretty solid amount, although I think the creator said LEBRON tends to overrate bigs defensively a bit

RAPM and Luck adjusted rapm on the shotcharts database has him 3rd and 2nd in the league this year respectively

RAPTOR and RPM are the ones that rate his season as an outlier level but are also the worst of the bunch in predictive testing

Read on Twitter

And despite them being more mainstream are the most distrusted of the all in one stats that utilize impact data

Read on Twitter

Not docking him or anything, he was historically good but I feel some people tend to argue that advanced all in one or lineup adjusted impact data all unanimously say he had like the best non lebron season in modern history or something, whereas if you take out RAPTOR and RPM, which I think is fair to disregard, the overall picture seems to be elite MVP type than that

I do think he was historically good and there are for sure arguments this is definately one of the best RS of the past 10 years, but some people are pushing a narrative that the these kinda of stats has this as some sort of outlier among outlier seasons in terms of impact, whereas of the ones that are decently respected only LEBRON gives it that kind of distinction (top 5 of past 12 years), EPM has it as 3rd in the last 8 years, DPM substantially lower than that, both RAPM variants also fall in line with “best in the league in year X” rather than outliers among outliers

The numbers he referenced are all decently high on his defense (although EPM is high on everyone’s defense it seems, LEBRON tends to overrate big men defenders and DPM doesn’t show the offensive or defensive splits) but most of them also aren’t as high as you’d expect on his offense (still great but not like close to best of the past few years) outside of luck adjusted RAPM, which ranks his offense as best in the league, puts his defense closer to a Decent defensive center, and LEBRON, which as I said overrated centers (of the first 25 in defense, 24 are centers or power forwards. Jokic ranks 10th amongst centers here)

I think Jokic is a good defender in the RS but he has clear weaknesses that are and have been exploited, doesn’t mean they can’t be fixed

This isn’t me saying that it isn’t in the discussion for best RS of the past few years but his argument isnt based on these numbers

I think criticisms of jokic’s defense has to do with matchups more than day to day impact

[Max123]

As far as stats, EPM, LEBRON, RPM, RAPTOR, 180 day RAPM, all paint the same picture of Jokic being an entire level of the league for the second year in a row

Lukathegoat normally posts these type of numbers, i might quote him to see if he'll weigh in on this because Wade usually looks pretty legit in 1 or 3 year peaks by those stats.

I should add that RAPTOR and RPM both kind of suck for various reasons

EPM has Jokic as best in the league, but not by some sort of absurd outlier, hes 3rd in the past 6 years which obviously is great, behind 2016 curry and 2019 harden, most of the best years are around +8 to +9 (I feel closer to 9 usually) and Jokic is at 9.4. This only goes back to 2014

Rolling DPM puts Giannis as a clear best in the league if you look at a season snapchot

LEBRON has it for Jokic as well by a pretty solid amount, although I think the creator said LEBRON tends to overrate bigs defensively a bit

RAPM and Luck adjusted rapm on the shotcharts database has him 3rd and 2nd in the league this year respectively

RAPTOR and RPM are the ones that rate his season as an outlier level but are also the worst of the bunch in predictive testing

Read on Twitter

And despite them being more mainstream are the most distrusted of the all in one stats that utilize impact data

Read on Twitter

Not docking him or anything, he was historically good but I feel some people tend to argue that advanced all in one or lineup adjusted impact data all unanimously say he had like the best non lebron season in modern history or something, whereas if you take out RAPTOR and RPM, which I think is fair to disregard, the overall picture seems to be elite MVP type than that

I do think he was historically good and there are for sure arguments this is definately one of the best RS of the past 10 years, but some people are pushing a narrative that the these kinda of stats has this as some sort of outlier among outlier seasons in terms of impact, whereas of the ones that are decently respected only LEBRON gives it that kind of distinction (top 5 of past 12 years), EPM has it as 3rd in the last 8 years, DPM substantially lower than that, both RAPM variants also fall in line with “best in the league in year X” rather than outliers among outliers

This isn’t me saying that it isn’t in the discussion for best RS of the past few years but his argument isnt based on these numbers

Isn't DPM different from the other stats in the sense that it isn't trying to say who was best in a given season but rather is only predictive?

[No-more-rings]

I should add that RAPTOR and RPM both kind of suck for various reasons

Well fine, I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other I was just bringing them up because he did.

On topic, who do you take for the topic at hand?

[MyUniBroDavis]

Lukathegoat normally posts these type of numbers, i might quote him to see if he'll weigh in on this because Wade usually looks pretty legit in 1 or 3 year peaks by those stats.

I should add that RAPTOR and RPM both kind of suck for various reasons

EPM has Jokic as best in the league, but not by some sort of absurd outlier, hes 3rd in the past 6 years which obviously is great, behind 2016 curry and 2019 harden, most of the best years are around +8 to +9 (I feel closer to 9 usually) and Jokic is at 9.4. This only goes back to 2014

Rolling DPM puts Giannis as a clear best in the league if you look at a season snapchot

LEBRON has it for Jokic as well by a pretty solid amount, although I think the creator said LEBRON tends to overrate bigs defensively a bit

RAPM and Luck adjusted rapm on the shotcharts database has him 3rd and 2nd in the league this year respectively

RAPTOR and RPM are the ones that rate his season as an outlier level but are also the worst of the bunch in predictive testing

Read on Twitter

And despite them being more mainstream are the most distrusted of the all in one stats that utilize impact data

Read on Twitter

Not docking him or anything, he was historically good but I feel some people tend to argue that advanced all in one or lineup adjusted impact data all unanimously say he had like the best non lebron season in modern history or something, whereas if you take out RAPTOR and RPM, which I think is fair to disregard, the overall picture seems to be elite MVP type than that

I do think he was historically good and there are for sure arguments this is definately one of the best RS of the past 10 years, but some people are pushing a narrative that the these kinda of stats has this as some sort of outlier among outlier seasons in terms of impact, whereas of the ones that are decently respected only LEBRON gives it that kind of distinction (top 5 of past 12 years), EPM has it as 3rd in the last 8 years, DPM substantially lower than that, both RAPM variants also fall in line with “best in the league in year X” rather than outliers among outliers

This isn’t me saying that it isn’t in the discussion for best RS of the past few years but his argument isnt based on these numbers

Isn't DPM different from the other stats in the sense that it isn't trying to say who was best in a given season but rather is only predictive?

MyB, I forgot lol. It might not look at an isolated season in that regard then, but the snapshots over the season might show something vs a players current DPM value, idk it that well though

[MyUniBroDavis]

I should add that RAPTOR and RPM both kind of suck for various reasons

Well fine, I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other I was just bringing them up because he did.

On topic, who do you take for the topic at hand?

As seasons I think you have to take Wade

As a player it depends and it’ll heavily depend on matchup

I think Wade today would have been absolutely insane with modern spacing, I don’t think the 2000s were as harsh to pick and roll slashers than primarily iso slashers (obv Wade can do both but the former is how he got most of his points)

I think one issue is that Jokic’s defense gives me much more of a, solid in the RS but falters in the playoffs vibe. Like I think from a series or game to game perspective it’s pretty possible to play to your opponents defensive weaknesses, but over the course of a season teams have more control over how they deploy their defenders (coverages and stuff) because it’s not game planned nearly as heavily

I think against teams that can’t exploit that Jokic is probably better, against the teams that can exploit that Wade is better

I think it’s better to be in wades position come playoff time, because I’d rather be an 9/10 against 15 teams than a 10/10 against 10 teams and a 8/10 against 5 of them

I also feel in the playoffs teams often play to limit his playmaking a lot and force him to become a scorer rather than a passer. He excels in this role for sure but I do feel it limits his overall impact a bit, it’s a small sample but in both his mvp years the nuggets offense with him on the floor was relatively slowed down in the playoffs even taking into account the opposing defenses they faced

It’s def a small sample size thing, but I do think that one of the arguments with Jokic is that the offense is so great with him on the floor despite his lack of help, and so far in like the last 3 series he played in that hasn’t really been the case.

I wouldnt read too much into the offense being slowed the past two years since that trend didn’t exist in, say 2020 (although their offense was more pick and roll based to get mismatches and stuff, so there was a key difference there), and he was great offensively other than maybe the Phoenix series

But I do think in the playoffs he isn’t better than he is in the RS offensively, the Warriors are obv a great defensive team but I don’t think they’re the type that shuts players down esp not post up bigs that are hella strong because of how small they are. Obv Jokic is strength + finnesse but I think there’s a reason cousins was destroying them too.

None of that is to diminish what Jokic did his scoring in the last three games was insane, and it was fine in the first 2 games too, but especially considering how much he was attacked defensively, i think that his postseasons weren’t as good as wades 06 one

Basically I think RS Jokic is like a 9 while Wade is like an 8, and probably reverse that for the postseason, a lot of it for matchup reasons because I don’t really buy into his offense declining even tho I pointed it out (and if he gets help and they run a more p and r offense like witth Murray especially)

Postseason, IMO, is far more important than RS, I think you can argue that RS might tell you more sometimes when a guy gets eliminated early but I think in this kind of scale of player, PS should be weighted more as you don’t win since an 8th seed winning a championship is a million times better than a 80 win team out in the first round