Replace Luka with 2008 LeBron

[Homer38]

Who was better?

[falcolombardi]

dunno, but i would lean lebron because of stronger defense

[uberhikari]

I don't care about skill, I care about impact. Luka Doncic was more skilled than '08 LeBron but he wasn't more impactful.

Furthermore, LeBron would be much better on the Mavs than Luka in this particular situation. Because of Luka's subpar athleticism, he cannot maximize the space that Dallas has by putting pressure on the rim. Imagine if 23 y/o LeBron had this much space with the kind of fouls that get called now. He would obliterate the rim on every other possession or it would be a parade to the free-throw line. The Suns could go over every screen or PnR and it wouldn't matter.

Besides, the Suns don't even have anybody to guard LeBron. He's too fast for Crowder, Ayton is a non-issue against a young LeBron, and Mikal would get ran through like wet tissue paper.

[euroleague]

Luka is far more developed and skilled than 2008 LeBron. LeBron was obviously the far more capable defender but i dont think he could have carried these Mavs the way Luka does. LeBron needs more talent and shooting help to succeed.

What? The Mavericks and NBA as a whole has significantly more spacing than 2008 LeBron did, who was a top 3-4 player that season.

The Mavericks would theoretically be better, I'm not sure by how much and not sure it is enough to overcome the Phoenix Suns. I'd have the 2008 Celtics over the 2022 Suns, which means there is a non-zero chance LeBron and this Mavericks are capable and do beat this Suns team. There is also a real possibility the Mavericks beat the Suns this season.

The Cavs were a defensive powerhouse team. They Celtics averaged 84ppg against them. The Mavs with LBJ couldn't hold the Suns to anything close to that.

LBJ would be better on defense than Luka, but the Mavs still wouldn't stop the Suns, and LBJ was a far worse player in the post at that stage in his career. He couldn't come close to what Luka is doing.

Against the Celtics, he averaged 27/6/8 on 35% FG (48% TS). His defender for much of the series was Paul Pierce. I just don't see him doing well against the Suns.

[GSP]

Theyd take the Warriors to 6-7 but i cant see them beating them since Bron wasnt refined enough yet. 09/10 Bron def wins the title tho

defense would be a massive upgrade. There isnt anyone to really target in a Spencer, Bullock, Bron, Dfs, Kleber lineup when they go to that and Bron with that much space is living at the line and dominating the paint which Mavs struggled to do

[capfan33]

Against the Celtics, he averaged 27/6/8 on 35% FG (48% TS). His defender for much of the series was Paul Pierce. I just don't see him doing well against the Suns.

His "defender" for most of the series was the entirety of the Celtics zone that has an argument for being the greatest defense ever. He wasn't being guarded 1on1 the entire series lol. And yes he played terribly most of the series, but the Suns defense doesn't hold a candle to that Celtics defense. I highly doubt 2008 Lebron wouldn't feast against the Suns defense, especially with modern spacing.

However, the current Celtics defense could also probably give 2008 Lebron major issues.

[falcolombardi]

Luka is far more developed and skilled than 2008 LeBron. LeBron was obviously the far more capable defender but i dont think he could have carried these Mavs the way Luka does. LeBron needs more talent and shooting help to succeed.

What? The Mavericks and NBA as a whole has significantly more spacing than 2008 LeBron did, who was a top 3-4 player that season.

The Mavericks would theoretically be better, I'm not sure by how much and not sure it is enough to overcome the Phoenix Suns. I'd have the 2008 Celtics over the 2022 Suns, which means there is a non-zero chance LeBron and this Mavericks are capable and do beat this Suns team. There is also a real possibility the Mavericks beat the Suns this season.

The Cavs were a defensive powerhouse team. They Celtics averaged 84ppg against them. The Mavs with LBJ couldn't hold the Suns to anything close to that.

LBJ would be better on defense than Luka, but the Mavs still wouldn't stop the Suns, and LBJ was a far worse player in the post at that stage in his career. He couldn't come close to what Luka is doing.

Against the Celtics, he averaged 27/6/8 on 35% FG (48% TS). His defender for much of the series was Paul Pierce. I just don't see him doing well against the Suns.

suns are not in 2008 celtics universe as a defense lol, not even close, whether you are talking in raw terms or relative to era

and lebron was arguably the main reason cavs were such a good defense against boston, dallas bigger issues against warriors was defense

[euroleague]

Against the Celtics, he averaged 27/6/8 on 35% FG (48% TS). His defender for much of the series was Paul Pierce. I just don't see him doing well against the Suns.

His "defender" for most of the series was the entirety of the Celtics zone that has an argument for being the greatest defense ever. He wasn't being guarded 1on1 the entire series lol. And yes he played terribly most of the series, but the Suns defense doesn't hold a candle to that Celtics defense. I highly doubt 2008 Lebron wouldn't feast against the Suns defense, especially with modern spacing.

However, the current Celtics defense could also probably give 2008 Lebron major issues.

Rondo, KG, Tony Allen, Glen Davis, Posey, even Perkins were very good defenders. The weakness of that team defensively was at SF... the "zone" wasn't the strength of the defense, although KG is a good help defender. Being strong at every single position (except SF) defensively, and having KG in the paint, made them strong.

[falcolombardi]

Against the Celtics, he averaged 27/6/8 on 35% FG (48% TS). His defender for much of the series was Paul Pierce. I just don't see him doing well against the Suns.

His "defender" for most of the series was the entirety of the Celtics zone that has an argument for being the greatest defense ever. He wasn't being guarded 1on1 the entire series lol. And yes he played terribly most of the series, but the Suns defense doesn't hold a candle to that Celtics defense. I highly doubt 2008 Lebron wouldn't feast against the Suns defense, especially with modern spacing.

However, the current Celtics defense could also probably give 2008 Lebron major issues.

Rondo, KG, Tony Allen, Glen Davis, Posey, even Perkins were very good defenders. The weakness of that team defensively was at SF... the "zone" wasn't the strength of the defense, although KG is a good help defender. Being strong at every single position (except SF) defensively, and having KG in the paint, made them strong.

pierce was not a weakness lol and the interior players just matter as much or more as the guy guarding the wing directly

[capfan33]

His "defender" for most of the series was the entirety of the Celtics zone that has an argument for being the greatest defense ever. He wasn't being guarded 1on1 the entire series lol. And yes he played terribly most of the series, but the Suns defense doesn't hold a candle to that Celtics defense. I highly doubt 2008 Lebron wouldn't feast against the Suns defense, especially with modern spacing.

However, the current Celtics defense could also probably give 2008 Lebron major issues.

Rondo, KG, Tony Allen, Glen Davis, Posey, even Perkins were very good defenders. The weakness of that team defensively was at SF... the "zone" wasn't the strength of the defense, although KG is a good help defender. Being strong at every single position (except SF) defensively, and having KG in the paint, made them strong.

pierce was not a weakness lol and the interior players just matter as much or more as the guy guarding the wing directly

First, you just said they had like 6 very good defenders, that's a lot by any standard. Moreover, Pierce by most things I've seen was at worst an average defender and my impression if anything was that he was above-average, albeit not elite. If that's your "weak" spot, you have a damn good defense. Kind of like the Warriors with Curry.

And moreover the "zone" was definitely the strength of the defense, it revolutionized the league if I remember correctly. The entire league started copying Thibodeau and he literally got his coaching career started from it and continued the success he had with that defensive concept with the elite Bulls defenses of the early 2010s. Lebron was horrible the 1st 4 games of the series, but it was an insane defense by every metric and the eye test.

[Archx]

Theyd take the Warriors to 6-7 but i cant see them beating them since Bron wasnt refined enough yet. 09/10 Bron def wins the title tho

defense would be a massive upgrade. There isnt anyone to really target in a Spencer, Bullock, Bron, Dfs, Kleber lineup when they go to that and Bron with that much space is living at the line and dominating the paint which Mavs struggled to do

Don't know which series have you been watching but Mavs lost this series mostly because they had zero paint and rim protection. Maxi came alive a bit in their last two game but it was too late.

Only reasonable defenders that could hold their own were Bullock and DFS, Luka needed help for someone to cover his back like GSW did with Curry. Brunson, Dinwiddie and others were absolutely leaking on defense and Luka obviously got most of the blame for that.

But all in all, 08 Cavs had much better rebounding team and much better interior defenders than this Mavs team. Luka 10 RPG next best guy DFS with 5.6 RPG. That's horrible compared to Lebron's Cavs teams.

I think Mavs did a solid job getting in to the paint, Brunson and Dinwiddie attacked GSW a lot and Mavs had soooo many open looks for a reason. It wasn't a conicidence, so my point is, saying Lebron would dominate the paint with ease... i mean yeah MAYBE ofcourse but there are also other factors in play here.

[tsherkin]

I like Luka but with Dallas spacing, Lebron would be crushing the league violently, even relative to playoff Luka.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Dallas loses to the Suns