how many times did these players get outplayed

[coastalmarker99]

I don't understand the notion that Wilt was outplayed by Russell in 1960 and 1968.


Takeout the game 3 in 1960 in which Wilt was clearly playing hurt and Wilt averaged 34.2 PPG against Russell.

All the while outrebounding him and playing elite defence according to many of the Celtic players who spoke after the series had ended.


In 1968 Wilt basically dominated Russell throughout the first five games of that series on one good leg and even in his infamous game seven in which he wasn't given the ball at all he basically fought Russell to a draw.

[LAL1947]

I don't understand the notion that Wilt was outplayed by Russell in 1960 and 1968.


Takeout the game 3 in 1960 in which Wilt was clearly playing hurt and Wilt averaged 34.2 PPG against Russell.

All the while outrebounding him and playing elite defence according to many of the Celtic players who spoke after the series had ended.

In 1968 Wilt basically dominated Russell throughout the first five games of that series on one good leg and even in his infamous game seven in which he wasn't given the ball at all he basically fought Russell to a draw.

I don't know about those series you asked about because I haven't watched them... but I've watched some of the 1969 series when Lakers lost to the Celtics 3-4. We should have won that if Elgin Baylor hadn't choked. I know he was 34 YO at the time but he had shooting stinkers for 4 of the 7 games... especially in the 4th quarter of Game 7. He spoiled that comeback IMO, missing 4-5 shots and didn't score a point while Jerry was going crazy. Wilt's knee getting injured in that 4th quarter also didn't help.

Anyway, the reason I'm quoting you is to ask about something else. Would be fair to say Jerry West outplayed Bill Russell in that 1968-69 series? I think it would, he was even named FMVP despite losing.

[coastalmarker99]

As for the 1972, WCF you can make a great case that Wilt was not outplayed as he held a shot jacking Kareem in the last four games of that series to only 41.4 percent from the field all the while outrebounding him and out shot-blocking him.


As in the three games that the Lakers won from games 3 to 6.

Wilt had 9 blocks

10 blocks

9 blocks


That is insane.

[coastalmarker99]

I don't understand the notion that Wilt was outplayed by Russell in 1960 and 1968.


Takeout the game 3 in 1960 in which Wilt was clearly playing hurt and Wilt averaged 34.2 PPG against Russell.

All the while outrebounding him and playing elite defence according to many of the Celtic players who spoke after the series had ended.

In 1968 Wilt basically dominated Russell throughout the first five games of that series on one good leg and even in his infamous game seven in which he wasn't given the ball at all he basically fought Russell to a draw.

I don't know about those series because I haven't watched them... but I've watched some of the 1969 series when Lakers lost to the Celtics 4-3. We should have won that if Elgin Baylor hadn't choked IMO. I know he was 34 YO at the time but he had shooting stinkers for 4 of the 7 games... especially in the 4th quarter of Game 7.

Anyway, the reason I'm quoting you is to ask about something else. Would be fair to say Jerry West outplayed Russell in that series? I think it would, he was even named FMVP despite losing.

West outplayed everyone in that series by a mile not named john Havlicek.


For the record West outplayed Russell in every single game that series outside of game 3


As for Wilt, he outplayed Russell in games 3,5,7 of that series.



While Russell outplayed him in games 2 and 6.


Games 1 and 4 I would consider a draw between the two of them as both were complete garbage in game 4 and they basically cancelled each other out in game 1.

[coastalmarker99]

I don't understand the notion that Wilt was outplayed by Russell in 1960 and 1968.


Takeout the game 3 in 1960 in which Wilt was clearly playing hurt and Wilt averaged 34.2 PPG against Russell.

All the while outrebounding him and playing elite defence according to many of the Celtic players who spoke after the series had ended.

In 1968 Wilt basically dominated Russell throughout the first five games of that series on one good leg and even in his infamous game seven in which he wasn't given the ball at all he basically fought Russell to a draw.

I don't know about those series you asked about because I haven't watched them... but I've watched some of the 1969 series when Lakers lost to the Celtics 3-4. We should have won that if Elgin Baylor hadn't choked. I know he was 34 YO at the time but he had shooting stinkers for 4 of the 7 games... especially in the 4th quarter of Game 7. He spoiled that comeback IMO, missing 4-5 shots and didn't score a point while Jerry was going crazy. Wilt's knee getting injured in that 4th quarter also didn't help.

Anyway, the reason I'm quoting you is to ask about something else. Would be fair to say Jerry West outplayed Bill Russell in that 1968-69 series? I think it would, he was even named FMVP despite losing.

The incompetence of "The Butcher" Van Kolff who was the coach of the Lakers at the time was evidenced in the 4th quarter footage of game seven.

Early on Russell picked up his 5th personal foul, and the Lakers immediately went into Wilt, who went right around the "matador" defence of Russell (ever notice how Russell quit playing defence with five fouls BTW), for an easy lay-in.

Instead of milking that strategy, VBK went back to the shot-jacking of Baylor.


Also later on with Boston hanging by a thread Chamberlain asked VBK to go back in with about three minutes left

The idiotic "Butcher" refused...and it basically cost him his coaching career, and the city of LA their first-ever title.

Instead, VBK stuck with Mel Counts, a player who had shot poorly the entire game (4-13), and who would miss a key shot late, and then commit a horrific turnover with less than a minute remaining.


What most people forget is in that game seven Chamberlain, playing 43 minutes to Russell's 48, outscored Russell, 18-6; outshot Russell, 7-8 to 2-7 from the field; outscored Russell from the line, 4-2; and outrebounded Russell, 27-21.


He clearly utterly dominated him individually in that game seven.


Here is another fun fact.

Subtract Russell's 2-7 from the field, and Chamberlain's 7-8 from the floor, and Russell's teammates outshot Wilt's from the field by a ...get this... .47.7 to .36.0 margin....in a two-point win!

[LAL1947]

West outplayed everyone in that series by a mile not named john Havlicek.

For the record West outplayed Russell in every single game that series outside of game 3

As for Wilt, he outplayed Russell in games 3,5,7 of that series.
While Russell outplayed him in games 2 and 6.

Games 1 and 4 I would consider a draw between the two of them as both were complete garbage in game 4 and they basically cancelled each other out in game 1.

I'll never understand why Wilt didn't take more shots in that series. It's quite mind boggling to watch those games in retrospect and see Baylor miss more shots than Wilt took. Jerry and Wilt should have run that show, relegating Baylor to 3rd-4th option with Johnny Egan.

[coastalmarker99]

West outplayed everyone in that series by a mile not named john Havlicek.

For the record West outplayed Russell in every single game that series outside of game 3

As for Wilt, he outplayed Russell in games 3,5,7 of that series.
While Russell outplayed him in games 2 and 6.

Games 1 and 4 I would consider a draw between the two of them as both were complete garbage in game 4 and they basically cancelled each other out in game 1.

I'll never understand why Wilt didn't take more shots in that series. It's quite mind boggling to watch it in retrospect and see Baylor miss more shots than Wilt took. Jerry and Wilt should have run that show, relegating Baylor to 3rd-4th option with Johnny Egan.

Baylor was an incredibly selfish player in his last couple of years and a complete liability.

That's the reason why Sharman basically forced him to retire early on in that magical 1972 season.

As for Wilt's diminished scoring, ...just take a look at that game seven footage and other footage we have of that season


He never got the ball as both Baylor and West were shot-jacking the entire series and indeed the entire playoffs.

BTW, in the game three 111-105 loss, Baylor and West combined to shoot 1-14 from the field in the 4th quarter.


While Wilt had 16 points on 6 of 11 shooting.

[LAL1947]

Baylor was an incredibly selfish player in his later years and a complete liability.

That's the reason why Sharman basically forced him to retire in that magical 1972 season.

I guess that's probably why the team went on to win it after Baylor retired, haha.

As for Wilt's diminished scoring, ...just take a look at that game seven footage.

He never got the ball as both Baylor and West were shot-jacking the entire series and indeed the entire playoffs.

BTW, in the game three 111-105 loss, Baylor AND West combined to shoot 1-14 from the field in the 4th quarter.

I can't fault Jerry for missing shots in that quarter, not after how he played for the rest of the series.

[coastalmarker99]

I don't understand the notion that Russell wasn't totally outplayed by Wilt in the 1964 finals.

As this was the defensive attention that Wilt was facing in the 1964 finals

Read on Twitter

Despite facing that type of pressure Wilt was able to average

29.2 PPG*
27.6 RPG*
2.4 APG

51.7 FG%
41.5 FT%
+3.4 rTS%

All the while basically getting zero help as

The Warriors Without Chamberlain:

Had 360 PTS on a total of - 362 FGA which equals to (34.8 FG%)

It's basically a miracle that Wilt by himself was somewhat able to make that series competitive as the Celtics only won games 4 and 5 by a combined margin of 9 points.


Seriously if you watch footage of that series you would think that Wilt's guards were Ymca players as they could barely get the ball past half-court.

[coastalmarker99]

Baylor was an incredibly selfish player in his later years and a complete liability.

That's the reason why Sharman basically forced him to retire in that magical 1972 season.

I guess that's probably why the team went on to win it after Baylor retired, haha.

As for Wilt's diminished scoring, ...just take a look at that game seven footage.

He never got the ball as both Baylor and West were shot-jacking the entire series and indeed the entire playoffs.

BTW, in the game three 111-105 loss, Baylor AND West combined to shoot 1-14 from the field in the 4th quarter.

I can't fault Jerry for missing shots in that quarter, not after how he played for the rest of the series.

Read the boxscore of this game if you want to truly see how selfish Baylor was as a player.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196811220LAL.html


There's a reason why he is considered the GOAT loser in NBA history as he usually **** the bed in those game sevens against the Celtics.


In 1962 he shot 13 out of 40 from the field in an overtime game seven loss while West was 14 out of 30.

In 1966 he shot 6 out of 22 from the field in a two-point loss while West was 12 out of 27.

in 1969 he shot out of 22 from the field in a two-point loss while West was 14 out of 29 and Wilt was 7 out of 8.

[70sFan]

I don't understand the notion that Wilt was outplayed by Russell in 1960 and 1968.


Takeout the game 3 in 1960 in which Wilt was clearly playing hurt and Wilt averaged 34.2 PPG against Russell.

All the while outrebounding him and playing elite defence according to many of the Celtic players who spoke after the series had ended.


In 1968 Wilt basically dominated Russell throughout the first five games of that series on one good leg and even in his infamous game seven in which he wasn't given the ball at all he basically fought Russell to a draw.

Well, maybe because injuries are part of the game? You can explain Wilt's horrible play at the end of the 1968 ECF by injuries (which is fair), but it doesn't change the fact that he played horribly.

[coastalmarker99]

I don't understand the notion that Wilt was outplayed by Russell in 1960 and 1968.


Takeout the game 3 in 1960 in which Wilt was clearly playing hurt and Wilt averaged 34.2 PPG against Russell.

All the while outrebounding him and playing elite defence according to many of the Celtic players who spoke after the series had ended.


In 1968 Wilt basically dominated Russell throughout the first five games of that series on one good leg and even in his infamous game seven in which he wasn't given the ball at all he basically fought Russell to a draw.

Well, maybe because injuries are part of the game? You can explain Wilt's horrible play at the end of the 1968 ECF by injuries (which is fair), but it doesn't change the fact that he played horribly.

Yes, he did play horribly in that game seven but he still outscored Russell and outrebounded him while equaling him in assists.


The real bad game for Wilt in that series was game 6 as if he had shown up offensively as he had in game 5 there is a great chance that they close out the series in six.

[70sFan]

I don't understand the notion that Wilt was outplayed by Russell in 1960 and 1968.


Takeout the game 3 in 1960 in which Wilt was clearly playing hurt and Wilt averaged 34.2 PPG against Russell.

All the while outrebounding him and playing elite defence according to many of the Celtic players who spoke after the series had ended.


In 1968 Wilt basically dominated Russell throughout the first five games of that series on one good leg and even in his infamous game seven in which he wasn't given the ball at all he basically fought Russell to a draw.

Well, maybe because injuries are part of the game? You can explain Wilt's horrible play at the end of the 1968 ECF by injuries (which is fair), but it doesn't change the fact that he played horribly.

Yes, he did play horribly in that game seven but he still outscored Russell and outrebounded him while equaling him in assists.


The real bad game for Wilt in that series was game 6 as if he had shown up offensively as he had in game 5 there is a great chance that they close out the series in six.

You should go beyond boxscore statslines to measure the performance.

The truth is that without available footage, we can only guess what happened. As far as I know, nothing from 1968 ECF exists outside of some clips from documentaries. We need at least partially complete games like we have with 1964 finals to draw a clear conclusion.