2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread

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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#341 » by eminence » Mon May 30, 2022 5:23 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
eminence wrote:
GSP wrote:
Whats the rationale for them having any chance of passing Giannis or Jokic? Just seems like winning bias TBH theyre clearly not as good as either......they werent even the best player in the series playing against them.......


We obviously evaluate Curry very very differently. I thought he was the best player in the league over the course of the season prior to his injury. Time missed allowed others to pass him (Jokic, who was close prior and then Giannis/Tatum in my estimation), but since he's came back he's looked good. I don't think Jokic outplayed him by any meaningful margin even with him just coming back.

Tatum, less likely, but still within the realm of possible to get by Giannis, who I thought he had an approximately even RS with. Would probably take something unexpected.


You had curry over Jokic before his injury?


Yup yup.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#342 » by MyUniBroDavis » Mon May 30, 2022 5:27 am

eminence wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
eminence wrote:
We obviously evaluate Curry very very differently. I thought he was the best player in the league over the course of the season prior to his injury. Time missed allowed others to pass him (Jokic, who was close prior and then Giannis/Tatum in my estimation), but since he's came back he's looked good. I don't think Jokic outplayed him by any meaningful margin even with him just coming back.

Tatum, less likely, but still within the realm of possible to get by Giannis, who I thought he had an approximately even RS with. Would probably take something unexpected.


You had curry over Jokic before his injury?


Yup yup.


I’m not hating I didn’t pay attention that much to the Warriors even though I have to root for them, I’m just curious why lol I thought curry was having a bit of a down year
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#343 » by jalengreen » Mon May 30, 2022 5:35 am

i think my top 3 is fairly confidently 1. jokic 2. giannis 3. curry right now. maybe curry goes up to #2 depending on the finals, but no one can pass jokic IMO.

the remaining two spots are tougher ... luka, joel, tatum, and butler are all arguably contenders depending on your personal criteria.

regular season wise i'd rank it joel > tatum > luka > butler

post season wise i'd rank it butler > luka > tatum > joel (tatum probably slides up in the finals and is maybe already #2?)

based on how good tatum was in the regular season and how he's also had a strong postseason, i think he'd be my #4 ... #5 is a tough pick, i'll have to think about it more and see other arguments
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#344 » by eminence » Mon May 30, 2022 5:52 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
eminence wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
You had curry over Jokic before his injury?


Yup yup.


I’m not hating I didn’t pay attention that much to the Warriors even though I have to root for them, I’m just curious why lol I thought curry was having a bit of a down year


I split the Warriors season into 3 portions. I suppose the playoffs is section 4.

The Steph/Dray portion to start the season (bit over 40% of the season) was the most impressive stretch of season by any team/player combo this season imo.

The middle portion without Dray (bit over 30%) got thrown under the bus for some rough shooting numbers (relative to Curry), where they still dug out a near 50 win pace with the least inspiring supporting cast this side of Jokic.

Then obviously he missed the last ~15% of the season as Dray returned. Team looked like it was collapsing until tanking teams spoon-fed them a few wins to end the season.

Another ~10% missed for rest, small injuries throughout the season.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#345 » by eminence » Mon May 30, 2022 3:46 pm

Jimmy Butler
Heat 53-29, 38-19 w/Jimmy, 15-10 without, #10 Offense, #5 Defense, 1 seed, +4.23 SRS
57 games played, 1931 minutes
21.4 pts/g, 5.9 reb/g, 5.5 ast/g, 1.6 stl/g, 0.5 blk/g, 2.1 tov/g
105 TS+
115.7 Ortg, 109.9 Drtg, +5.8 Net
+2.4 on/off

Most underwhelming of the RSs we've looked at. Missed a bunch of games, team was okay without him overall. Maybe a small bonus for his team getting the #1 seed. Decent argument Bam was their most important player in the RS, but really just a strong overall team effort. Nothing to indicate more than a good Allstar, low tier All-NBA season from Jimmy in the RS. Needed a big PO run to even get into consideration for the ballot.

Round 1 vs the 8 seed +1.55 Hawks
Game 1 - 21/6/4 on good efficiency, the Heat overall did bad bad things to Trae Young in this series. Robinson 8/9 from deep in this game, dropping 27 pts on 10 FGA (129.3 TS%).
Game 2 - 45/5/5 on great efficiency, Jimmy completely carried the offense in this one, Robinson mostly dropped from the regular rotation going forward (a mistake imo). Another strong defensive team effort, 10 tovs from Trae.
Game 3 - 20/10/8 on poor efficiency, Hawks bench wins a game for them, great performance from them. Trae with his only good game of the series. Strus/Bam/Lowry headed the Heat 3rd quarter push. Came up short though.
Game 4 - 36/10/4 on great efficiency, Heat come out looking to put the kibosh on any Atlanta thoughts of a comeback and do so emphatically.
Game 5 - no Jimmy, bit of a defensive slugfest, Heat pull it out behind Oladipo and Bam in an immortal battle vs... De'Andre Hunter? What the heck Trae?

Round 2 vs the 4 seed +2.57 Sixers
Game 1 - 15/9/3 on poor efficiency, Bam leads the win against the Embiid-less Sixers.
Game 2 - 22/6/12 on good efficiency, Butler back in form, Bam continues to look great w/Embiid out. Up 2-0 rather easily.
Game 3 - 33/10/2 on good efficiency, rest of the Heat can't get anything going on offense, Maxey/Philly dominate the 4th quarter.
Game 4 - 40/3/6 on great efficiency, offense not the big problem for Miami in this one with Jimmy scoring great, but their defense got torched for the 1st time of the POs. All around great game from the Sixers on offense.
Game 5 - 23/9/6 on great efficiency, back home in Miami and they look near unbeatable vs a Sixers team coming off a pretty good game.
Game 6 - 32/8/4 on middling efficiency, great 3rd quarter with 14 pts to pull away.

Round 3 vs the 2 seed +7.02 Celtics
Game 1 - 41/9/5 on great efficiency, strong opening statement. Celtics down Smart/Horford.
Game 2 - 29/6/3 on great efficiency, Celtics strike back, hitting 20/40 from deep, Heat give up homecourt.
Game 3 - 8/3/2 on poor efficiency, Heat take back homecourt advantage largely without Jimmy. Tatum forgets to show up as well. Bam carries.
Game 4 - 6/7/1 on terrible efficiency, Heat starters get beat pretty bad. Jimmy terrible, team would've been better if he'd been in street clothes.
Game 5 - 13/6/4 on terrible efficiency, Boston takes their first lead of the series. Jimmy is again terrible to the point the team should've benched him.
Game 6 - 47/9/8 on great efficiency, that one's going in the Jimmy legend book.
Game 7 - 35/9/1 on good efficiency, Heat just don't get enough from the role guys in this one. A strong game from Jimmy, has a shot to win it and comes up just off.

The first two playoff rounds are fairly straightforward to analyze - good but not legendary run, getting him into position for a POY ballot run. Then a very odd ECF - 2 great great games (1/6), 2 good games (2/7), and 3 terrible games (3/4/5) (by POY ballot standards). How do folks feel about his ECF overall? I think I slightly wind up preferring Tatum's series and believe he was the correct ECF MVP.

Tricky one overall, I had Luka/Butler pretty close through RS, edge to Luka mainly for time played. Jimmy had the better round 1, but Luka the better round 2. Jimmys conference finals a very unique one to evaluate.

Overall I'm planning on going with Luka for #5 on my ballot. HM to Embiid/Butler.

Order of top 4 to be determined.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#346 » by Doctor MJ » Mon May 30, 2022 5:28 pm

Updated voting body. Thank you everybody participating in this thread - as I always say, whatever project we do, it's the discussion and the community that is the real value-add. You make that happen here!

Please PM me if you want to be in the body and you don't see your name on the list.

If I may not remember you, please hype your participation up a bit. :D

Please also feel free to post here if you have any questions about timeline or anything else.

Cheers,

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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#347 » by Doctor MJ » Mon May 30, 2022 5:57 pm

Alright, the finals matchup is here, and it's the best of the best. Fantastic!

A shout out to the Bucks. Injuries are a part of the game, the Celtics have nothing to apologize for (best overall team over the course of the seaosn without questions), but I think we're all wondering what would have happened if Khris Middleton was healthy. In all honesty, my guess is that we'd have a Golden State vs Milwaukee finals.

I'll say what I said before though: I think GS has the matchup edge over Milwaukee, and I think Boston has it over GS.

Now, to be clear about terms: I think Memphis has the matchup edge over GS. Didn't mean they'd win the series - didn't even mean I thought they'd win the series - but they do something to GS that makes GS' preferred approach harder. I think Boston ought to be able to do the same.

Now's the obvious time to give a prediction, and I suppose I will but let me say a bit more, because I always feel like I'm more insightful illustrating possibilities than I am saying which one will actually come into being.

1. I think GS was the most impressive team in the first half of the RS, and Boston was most impressive in the second half (Phoenix was the most impressive over the entirety of the RS)
2. I think Boston was the most impressive team in the 1st & 2nd rounds of the PS, and GS was most impressive in the conference finals.
3. I think Boston seems like the closest thing to an ideal defense to slow down the GS offense that we see in the league today. The collection of talent that has great defenders basically all the way down their rotation, to go along with very smart coaching, and years of their core 4 playing together.
4. I trust GS' mental ability to keep figuring out that next trick, and responding adroitly to it.

I find myself thinking about this in terms of something that I tend to call "character", which was the term used in the 1961 movie The Hustler.

In that movie about a pool shark, the young hotshot Fast Eddie goes up against the old pro Minnesota Fats. Eddie gets off to the lead - and to be clear, "lead" here means making money by winning games, these guys are playing games of pool that go very quickly because essentially one missed shot means you lose the game - but over time Fats is able to rattle Eddie, and eventually Eddie goes broke.

The owner of the pool hall, Bert Gordon - a card shark - tells Eddie he has talent but not "character", the way Fats does.

Eddie goes on, lives his life, experiences some real trauma, and comes back and kicks Fats butt decisively.

I'll also point to the man behind the title character in "Cinderella Man", Jim Braddock. Who after coming up the boxing ranks and hitting a ceiling, left the sport, only to come back during the Great Depression thinking of nothing but feeding his family...and now he becomes a champion.

And then of course, we can talk about other matches between a competitor who has been around the block and the young upstart who analytically has already surpassed the old man. GOAT example of this is Ali vs Foreman.

These are the things on my mind right now on a gut level having just watched the conference finals.

Earlier I said that I thought the Warriors had the higher ceiling if they could just reach it...but the more I ponder the matchup here, I'm not sure about that either as a general statement or from a matchup perspective.

I feel like these Celtics should be able to take this series, and based on their total season play absolutely deserve to be the favorite...

yet, having seen has put together the Warriors seemed last round, and how much the Celtics seemed to still get in their own head, I find myself thinking Warriors.

but as I say that, I think you could very much argue that these Celtics may have already gone through enough tribulation to be more like the older Fast Eddie than the younger. Beating the Heat and getting past the conference finals is a big deal for these Celtics, and it's possible they'll now play with greater confidence - particularly against a Warrior core they've had some success against in the past.

Whatever happens, both teams deserve great praise and we should really try to avoid the trap of talking as if the finalist is some great failure...but obviously, whoever wins out, there's going to be a lot to talk about, about how they did it.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#348 » by Doctor MJ » Mon May 30, 2022 7:03 pm

Okay, my thoughts on awards before the championship.

POY

My regular season Top 5 may end up being my POY Top 5 (which never happens) - that's Jokic/Tatum/Curry/Giannis/Embiid

Obviously much will get determined based on the finals itself. Not only do Tatum & Curry have an opportunity to impress, but the finals can't help but cast new light on what we saw in the earlier round.

I will say that at this moment, I'm feeling like putting Jimmy Butler ahead of Embiid, but that's something I'm going to keep chewing on. I don't want to overreact to the moment.

Luka Doncic has a path in as well, but it would probably have to involve a dominant Warrior victory that makes me raise the West and lower the East generally.

OPOY

At the moment my gut is to say Jokic/Curry/Doncic, though I can't help but note that all of those guys are in the West. A dominant Celtic performance might really re-shape how I'm thinking about this.

Something I will say: I do think the amount of effort Curry is putting in on defense probably is taking a toll on what he can do offensively.

DPOY

I'm kinda zeroing in on Marcus Smart and Draymond Green for reasons that are probably obvious.

I'm chewing on what to do with Giannis. I've picked him as my DPOY twice, and the way he played in the playoffs to me is DPOY worthy...but I just think the Bucks were capable of more defensively in the regular season.

This gets into a couple broader points of debate between me and other folks.

When I see a core have a considerably softer team performance in the regular season than they've done in the past, and I think it's literally wise for them to do this from the perspective of conserving some energy for the playoffs, I tend to be fine using the term "coasting". And if you coast, and then you don't actually achieve a victory in the playoffs that re-writes your team's achievement for the season, I'm cautious about elevating you.

Had things gone a bit different in the playoffs, it's not hard to see how Giannis might have become my POY & DPOY yet again...but they didn't. On the other hand, if the Celtics win the title, maybe concerns like mine above will seem less consequential.

Let me also put forth the names Jayson Tatum & Andrew Wiggins, who to me seem like the next guys to consider from the 2 NBA Finalists...which also happen to have been the two dominant defensive teams all season long.

I also feel I must mention the Memphis Grizzlies. Jaren Jackson Jr. seems the guy to talk about here, but I'm open to others. He's clearly the most spectacular defender on their team, but he's so mistake prone that maybe he's not the guy. Regardless, if it ends up turning out that the Grizzlies actually are more effective against the Warrior offense than even the Celtics, I'm sure I'll be thinking about the guys in this club.

Finally: Rudy Gobert certainly merits discussion. My inclination at this point is to not have him on my ballot, not because I think he's definitively unworthy, but just because the Jazz defense this year was not a success. Hard to achieve, even when you're capable of it, when the context you're in doesn't support you reasonably.

ROY

As I've said before, the active play here is over but I still look forward to reading other people's thoughts because I'm really undecided between Evan Mobley & Scottie Barnes. Think both are worthy.

Expecting to put Cade Cunningham as my #3, but also feel a pull toward Herb Jones.

MIP

3 guys on my mind right now are Darius Garland, Desmond Bane & Jordan Poole.

Garland has been my MIP choice all year and I'm still inclined to side with him, but Bane gives me pause. When I go and look at who is getting that +/- to lead the Grizz when Ja spends all that time injured, it keeps leading me back to Bane. If you're thinking "noise", I'll tell you that some of the luck-adjusting analytics suggests the very same thing. How real is this? Hoping to hear others thoughts.

I can see arguments for other guys to get on the ballot, but there's a significance to Poole's emergence this year that I find myself compelled to acknowledge. The manufacturing of a 3rd Splash Brother is a really, really big deal.

6MOY

So, right now, I'm really thinking Grant Williams. It's funny to me he didn't even get a vote in the RS, though it makes sense: There's a strong tendency to essentially give 6MOY to the biggest 2nd unit star, rather than a guy who simply does great stuff in major minutes while coming off the bench.

There's room for our personal basketball accolade philosophies to diverge, but I'll tell ya, I think it's a problem if one's personal 6MOY lens manages to not notice the depth of these Boston Celtics.

Prior to last round, I was starting to think about Otto Porter being the analogous guy for the other great team of the year who also has depth, but I think it would take a huge finals performance from him to motivate me to consider him that hard. Ideally, to me, a 6MOY candidate out to feel like one of the 5 most valuable players on his team and at the very least the 6th. And I think as we go through these playoffs, Porter just hasn't been one of the Warriors' 6 most important pieces. And since none of those 6 pieces are eligible for this award due to missed time in the regular season, the Warriors may just not be able to place here like we might expect them to.

Obviously, I should mention regular season candidates. Tyler Herro, Kevin Love, Cam Johnson...I dunno, hard for me to get excited when these guys don't shine on the big post-season stage, but probably at least one of them will end up on my ballot. Wondering how others are seeming this.

COY

This will probably end up for me with either Ime Udoka or Steve Kerr on top, the other on the ballot, and the other spot will go either to Erik Spoelstra or Taylor Jenkins. In terms of how it plays out, I think it will be pretty mechanistically predictable, but I will say each of these guys is worth people raving about them.

EOY

To just name some guys that seem to have actions that might get them consideration:

- Brad Stevens of Boston. Fired himself, hired Udoka, got rid of Walker & Schroeder, acquired Horford & White.
- Bob Myers of Golden State. Signed Porter & Payton. Drafted Kuminga & Moody.
- Nico Harrison of Dallas. Hired Kidd. Got rid of Porzingis, acquired Dinwittie.
- Pat Riley of Miami. Signed Strus, Tucker, Oladipo. Acquired Lowry.
- Masai Ujiri of Toronto. Drafted Barnes. Moved on from Lowry, handed keys to VanVleet. Signed Trent.
- Arturas Karnisova of Chicago. Acquired DeRozan, Caruso & Ball.
- Koby Altman of Cleveland. Drafted Mobley. Signed Allen.
- David Griffin of New Orleans. Hired Green. Traded for McCollum & Nance. Drafted Jones. Stole Alvarado.
- Kevin Pritchard of Indiana. Hired Carlisle. Acquired Halliburton, Hield & draft picks.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#349 » by falcolombardi » Mon May 30, 2022 7:18 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Okay, my thoughts on awards before the championship.


I'm chewing on what to do with Giannis. I've picked him as my DPOY twice, and the way he played in the playoffs to me is DPOY worthy...but I just think the Bucks were capable of more defensively in the regular season.

This gets into a couple broader points of debate between me and other folks.

When I see a core have a considerably softer team performance in the regular season than they've done in the past, and I think it's literally wise for them to do this from the perspective of conserving some energy for the playoffs, I tend to be fine using the term "coasting". And if you coast, and then you don't actually achieve a victory in the playoffs that re-writes your team's achievement for the season, I'm cautious about elevating you.

Had things gone a bit different in the playoffs, it's not hard to see how Giannis might have become my POY & DPOY yet again...but they didn't. On the other hand, if the Celtics win the title, maybe concerns like mine above will seem less consequential.
.


wouldnt the winning concern apply more for OPOY and DPOY should be instead about defensive rather than overall success?

bucks didnt lose because their defense failed, quite the opposite, they were in that boston series up to game 7 almost exclusively because their defense was great

now is fine to be more impressed with boston or warriors defenses, or have concern about how to evaluate giannis 2 series sample size vs draymond or horford 4 series sample

but is important to acnowledge that as far as dpoy goes, bucks and giannis were fantastic in the small 2 series sample size se have
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#350 » by Doctor MJ » Mon May 30, 2022 7:22 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Okay, my thoughts on awards before the championship.


I'm chewing on what to do with Giannis. I've picked him as my DPOY twice, and the way he played in the playoffs to me is DPOY worthy...but I just think the Bucks were capable of more defensively in the regular season.

This gets into a couple broader points of debate between me and other folks.

When I see a core have a considerably softer team performance in the regular season than they've done in the past, and I think it's literally wise for them to do this from the perspective of conserving some energy for the playoffs, I tend to be fine using the term "coasting". And if you coast, and then you don't actually achieve a victory in the playoffs that re-writes your team's achievement for the season, I'm cautious about elevating you.

Had things gone a bit different in the playoffs, it's not hard to see how Giannis might have become my POY & DPOY yet again...but they didn't. On the other hand, if the Celtics win the title, maybe concerns like mine above will seem less consequential.
.


wouldnt the winning concern apply more for OPOY and DPOY should be instead about defensive rather than overall success?

bucks didnt lose because their defense failed, quite the opposite, they were in that boston series up to game 7 almost exclusively because their defense was great

now is fine to be more impressed with boston or warriors defenses, or have concern about how to evaluate giannis 2 series sample size vs draymond or horford 4 series sample

but is important to acnowledge that as far as dpoy goes, bucks and giannis were fantastic in the small 2 series sample size se have


Great points to bring up for everyone to consider.

EDIT: Wanted to keep it short and sweet, but I feel like I should say something else -

I understand thinking that so long as Player X played long enough in the playoffs to demonstrate how good he was, that should be enough to overwrite the regular season. Some will agree with that thinking, some will disagree, but it's a reasonable approach to thinking about this.

I do think it's important to keep in mind that what makes the playoffs something so different from the regular season is the fact that it is played in extended series where we get to see a player's resilience to counters from each team he plays.

So when a player only goes up against 2 opponents, and doesn't face matchups against a couple more elite opponents who do things very differently than the first two, he doesn't get a chance to prove himself the same way he would have, had he played for 4 series.

And I'll say as I have before: I think the Bucks' defense was specifically vulnerable to teams with great 3-point shooting, and maybe even more vulnerable to a motion offense which requires a different type of perimeter man coverage that requires more decision making in the moment.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#351 » by tsherkin » Mon May 30, 2022 7:26 pm

Thanks for the mention, Doc, but I don't think I've met the minimum participation level for voting this year. I'll circle back next season :)
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#352 » by jalengreen » Mon May 30, 2022 8:09 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:DPOY

I'm kinda zeroing in on Marcus Smart and Draymond Green for reasons that are probably obvious.

I'm chewing on what to do with Giannis. I've picked him as my DPOY twice, and the way he played in the playoffs to me is DPOY worthy...but I just think the Bucks were capable of more defensively in the regular season.

This gets into a couple broader points of debate between me and other folks.

When I see a core have a considerably softer team performance in the regular season than they've done in the past, and I think it's literally wise for them to do this from the perspective of conserving some energy for the playoffs, I tend to be fine using the term "coasting". And if you coast, and then you don't actually achieve a victory in the playoffs that re-writes your team's achievement for the season, I'm cautious about elevating you.

Had things gone a bit different in the playoffs, it's not hard to see how Giannis might have become my POY & DPOY yet again...but they didn't. On the other hand, if the Celtics win the title, maybe concerns like mine above will seem less consequential.

Let me also put forth the names Jayson Tatum & Andrew Wiggins, who to me seem like the next guys to consider from the 2 NBA Finalists...which also happen to have been the two dominant defensive teams all season long.

I also feel I must mention the Memphis Grizzlies. Jaren Jackson Jr. seems the guy to talk about here, but I'm open to others. He's clearly the most spectacular defender on their team, but he's so mistake prone that maybe he's not the guy. Regardless, if it ends up turning out that the Grizzlies actually are more effective against the Warrior offense than even the Celtics, I'm sure I'll be thinking about the guys in this club.

Finally: Rudy Gobert certainly merits discussion. My inclination at this point is to not have him on my ballot, not because I think he's definitively unworthy, but just because the Jazz defense this year was not a success. Hard to achieve, even when you're capable of it, when the context you're in doesn't support you reasonably.


Giannis and Gobert are an interesting DPOY comparison to me because I was not very high on Giannis' regular season defensive performance while I was quite high on Gobert's.

The Jazz had the 9th best defensive rating in the league while the Bucks had the 14th best. The Jazz had a 108.0 DRTG with Gobert on the court (115.0 without, -7.0) while the Bucks had a 110.8 DRTG with Giannis on the court (114.5 without, -3.7).

While neither player led their team to being a truly elite defensive unit like most DPOY winners, Gobert seemed to lead a superior defensive team despite having, in my opinion, a worse supporting cast.

As you alluded to, postseason achievement can elevate a regular season underperformance. And while the Bucks were knocked out in the second round, their defense was stellar in the postseason, boasting a league best 102.8 defensive rating.

I initially wondered how much credit Giannis should receive for that. After all, a starting lineup with Jrue Holiday, Wesley Matthews, and Brook Lopez is a fantastic defensive supporting cast. Especially in comparison to the regular season where played just 13 games.

However, the superior rim protection provided by lineups with Lopez seemed to be counteracted by the three-point efficiency given up.

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  On    │ Off     Min   DRTG     Opp. 2pt FG%   Opp. 3pt FG% 
 ───────┼────────────────────────────────────────────────────
  GA+BL │         229   101.91   45.29%         34.27%       
  GA    │ BL      219   100.23   52.04%         29.76%       
  BL    │ GA      103   112.5    48.89%         42.17%       
        │ GA+BL   25    108.77   51.52%         33.33%       
 ═══════╧════════════════════════════════════════════════════


Opponent 3PT% is something that could be very volatile in short samples and some indicator of shot quality would be more meaningful, but I think it lines up with the eye test as lineups with Lopez tended to give up wide open threes which sometimes worked and sometimes didn't (most notably in G7).

Not sure where this leaves me. I think there's a clear gap between Gobert's regular season performance and Giannis', but the Jazz didn't accomplish anything defensively in the playoffs while Giannis and the Bucks were stellar. I don't blame Gobert (his G1 performance was absolutely remarkable) but it's hard to ignore the difference there.

I'll have to think about Smart some more too. Didn't think he was a deserving DPOY winner and while the Celtics have continued to be great defensively in the playoffs, it feels like more of a defensive by committee team.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#353 » by Doctor MJ » Mon May 30, 2022 8:26 pm

jalengreen wrote:I'll have to think about Smart some more too. Didn't think he was a deserving DPOY winner and while the Celtics have continued to be great defensively in the playoffs, it feels like more of a defensive by committee team.


Good thoughts in general, and the debate on Smart is one we're all trying to figure out where we stand on things.

I actually think it's quite reasonable to question whether Smart should be the top DPOY candidate for the Celtics, but to this point, I've kept circling back to him.

But the more general thing that I think we're seeing here is this:

If Player X has more impact/value/etc than anyone else by playing Role Y, but Team Z has the best defense without relying on Role Y the same way, should we consider giving someone from Team Z the nod over Player X?

What if we end up concluding that Team Z's approach is the best and it's really not something that a Role Y player is that valuable in?

Answers of "no" are understandable, but I have to say "yes". Doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to give the ward to the best guy at the thing on the best team at that thing, but it something I have to consider.

In the case of Smart specifically, there are also a few things going on:

1. He's the venerated leader of the Celtic defense. He sets the tone for this defensive culture.

2. His leadership is quite vocal and involves a great deal of on-court coaching which is a valuable and often underrated thing.

3. Playing him at the 1, means you don't have to play another 1. The Celtics defense is the best in the game because there are no weak points. While most teams simply deal with defensive weaknesses from their 1, the Celtics have a guy who can guard point guards very well and switch on to Giannis effectively.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#354 » by eminence » Mon May 30, 2022 8:38 pm

Is anyone considering voting for anyone other than the main 7 mentioned for POY? Jokic/Giannis/Embiid/Curry/Tatum/Luka/Butler

If so I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning :)
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#355 » by Doctor MJ » Mon May 30, 2022 8:40 pm

eminence wrote:Is anyone considering voting for anyone other than the main 7 mentioned for POY? Jokic/Giannis/Embiid/Curry/Tatum/Luka/Butler

If so I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning :)


It does seem like a pretty clear cut Magnificent Seven doesn't it?

I'm not even sure who would round out my top 10, but those 7 are clear.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#356 » by GSP » Mon May 30, 2022 8:42 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
jalengreen wrote:I'll have to think about Smart some more too. Didn't think he was a deserving DPOY winner and while the Celtics have continued to be great defensively in the playoffs, it feels like more of a defensive by committee team.


Good thoughts in general, and the debate on Smart is one we're all trying to figure out where we stand on things.

I actually think it's quite reasonable to question whether Smart should be the top DPOY candidate for the Celtics, but to this point, I've kept circling back to him.

But the more general thing that I think we're seeing here is this:

If Player X has more impact/value/etc than anyone else by playing Role Y, but Team Z has the best defense without relying on Role Y the same way, should we consider giving someone from Team Z the nod over Player X?

What if we end up concluding that Team Z's approach is the best and it's really not something that a Role Y player is that valuable in?

Answers of "no" are understandable, but I have to say "yes". Doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to give the ward to the best guy at the thing on the best team at that thing, but it something I have to consider.

In the case of Smart specifically, there are also a few things going on:

1. He's the venerated leader of the Celtic defense. He sets the tone for this defensive culture.

2. His leadership is quite vocal and involves a great deal of on-court coaching which is a valuable and often underrated thing.

3. Playing him at the 1, means you don't have to play another 1. The Celtics defense is the best in the game because there are no weak points. While most teams simply deal with defensive weaknesses from their 1, the Celtics have a guy who can guard point guards very well and switch on to Giannis effectively.


The last point is so underrated specially with how we've seen weak defensive guards get attacked and exposed these playoffs like Dangelo, Ja, Trae, Cp3, Conley, Mitchell. Smart is a tank
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#357 » by Jaivl » Mon May 30, 2022 9:07 pm

eminence wrote:Is anyone considering voting for anyone other than the main 7 mentioned for POY? Jokic/Giannis/Embiid/Curry/Tatum/Luka/Butler

If so I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning :)

Maybe there is a super-slight chance for Draymond...? Other than a 2016-tier performance on the Finals, the top 7 seems pretty much locked.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#358 » by The-Power » Mon May 30, 2022 9:31 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:3. Playing him at the 1, means you don't have to play another 1. The Celtics defense is the best in the game because there are no weak points. While most teams simply deal with defensive weaknesses from their 1, the Celtics have a guy who can guard point guards very well and switch on to Giannis effectively.

Very important point. But I think we must be aware that this makes us enter philosophical terrain. Because what you're saying, in essence, is that it is Smart's offensive ability (being a capable PG) that allows his team to have an oversized and switch-heavy built in the first place. That makes him the nucleus of that team's defense. I think that's fair to consider.

However, is that really fundamentally different from looking at other players' offensive games and assess defensive value based on that? An offensive star player may play in such a way that minimizes turnover risk and maximizes offensive efficiency of the team, which in turn has positive effects on the defensive side. Another offensive star player may allow for a team construction or line-ups that are defensive-oriented without losing (too) much on offense.

The former I've heard in debates about Dirk Nowitzki. The latter is something that is at times brought up with Curry (allowing GSW to play with two defense-first players that do not space the floor, like Looney, Green and to some extent GPII) but could also be brought up for heliocentric approaches like Luka this year, or Harden and LeBron in the past, where one offensive engine allows the team to be built around offensively limited players that can fully exert themselves on defense.

I assume most of us would feel uncomfortable having any of the aforementioned players (besides prime LeBron) anywhere near a DPOY discussion, even if we can acknowledge their impact on roster construction and the defensive focus of role players that allowed them to have some really good defenses at some point in time.

So the question then becomes: how does the Smart situation fit into this debate, which is very different but – at the same time – similarly looks at the offensive qualities of the player in question to assess defensive impact at the team level? Or does the fact that Smart's own defensive ability is still key in this context render this a situation that is per se not comparable to the others?

But that would feel mostly like a philosophical choice around the spirit of the award, because the impact is there for the other players as well – and we'll have to decide how to deal with that. This seems rather unproblematic for POY debates where impact can be analyzed holistically, but I find it to be much more problematic when it has to be broken down to defensive and offensive splits.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#359 » by falcolombardi » Mon May 30, 2022 10:15 pm

The-Power wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:3. Playing him at the 1, means you don't have to play another 1. The Celtics defense is the best in the game because there are no weak points. While most teams simply deal with defensive weaknesses from their 1, the Celtics have a guy who can guard point guards very well and switch on to Giannis effectively.

Very important point. But I think we must be aware that this makes us enter philosophical terrain. Because what you're saying, in essence, is that it is Smart's offensive ability (being a capable PG) that allows his team to have an oversized and switch-heavy built in the first place. That makes him the nucleus of that team's defense. I think that's fair to consider.

However, is that really fundamentally different from looking at other players' offensive games and assess defensive value based on that? An offensive star player may play in such a way that minimizes turnover risk and maximizes offensive efficiency of the team, which in turn has positive effects on the defensive side. Another offensive star player may allow for a team construction or line-ups that are defensive-oriented without losing (too) much on offense.

The former I've heard in debates about Dirk Nowitzki. The latter is something that is at times brought up with Curry (allowing GSW to play with two defense-first players that do not space the floor, like Looney, Green and to some extent GPII) but could also be brought up for heliocentric approaches like Luka this year, or Harden and LeBron in the past, where one offensive engine allows the team to be built around offensively limited players that can fully exert themselves on defense.

I assume most of us would feel uncomfortable having any of the aforementioned players (besides prime LeBron) anywhere near a DPOY discussion, even if we can acknowledge their impact on roster construction and the defensive focus of role players that allowed them to have some really good defenses at some point in time.

So the question then becomes: how does the Smart situation fit into this debate, which is very different but – at the same time – similarly looks at the offensive qualities of the player in question to assess defensive impact at the team level? Or does the fact that Smart's own defensive ability is still key in this context render this a situation that is per se not comparable to the others?

But that would feel mostly like a philosophical choice around the spirit of the award, because the impact is there for the other players as well – and we'll have to decide how to deal with that. This seems rather unproblematic for POY debates where impact can be analyzed holistically, but I find it to be much more problematic when it has to be broken down to defensive and offensive splits.


i would look at it from a different angle

when a player does somethingh in offense that allows his team to be better in defense, like low turnovers, that is part of his defensive impact

when a player does somethingh in offense that allows his team to play more defensive lineups without losing much on offense, that is his -offensive- impact in the way of versatility

putting actual examples

smart doesnt do anythingh in offense than the average point guard wouldnt do as far as helping the defense, he is not out there with a historically great turnover profile (chris paul) or somethingh like that, is not what he does in offense that helps celtics defense

what he does, is being more switchable than other point guards AND being a much better defender than the average point guard

an argument for smart as dpoy would argue that he "takes away" more points off the opposite offense over the average point guard, than even the best centers "take away" over the average center

someone like curry is the opposite, is not that he makes warriors defense better, is that his offense is versatile enough he can play with non shooters like dray and looney and still have his impact so warriors can play defensive lineups with a couple non shooters and know curry will still be impactful
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#360 » by The-Power » Mon May 30, 2022 10:47 pm

falcolombardi wrote:i would look at it from a different angle

when a player does somethingh in offense that allows his team to be better in defense, like low turnovers, that is part of his defensive impact

when a player does somethingh in offense that allows his team to play more defensive lineups without losing much on offense, that is his -offensive- impact in the way of versatility

putting actual examples

smart doesnt do anythingh in offense than the average point guard wouldnt do as far as helping the defense, he is not out there with a historically great turnover profile (chris paul) or somethingh like that, is not what he does in offense that helps celtics defense

what he does, is being more switchable than other point guards AND being a much better defender than the average point guard

an argument for smart as dpoy would argue that he "takes away" more points off the opposite offense over the average point guard, than even the best centers "take away" over the average center

someone like curry is the opposite, is not that he makes warriors defense better, is that his offense is versatile enough he can play with non shooters like dray and looney and still have his impact so warriors can play defensive lineups with a couple non shooters and know curry will still be impactful

Good points and if we're looking purely at on-court impact, you're probably right. But I think it gets trickier once we try to allocate praise for elite team defenses because teams obviously cannot think in neat binary categories of offense and defense. And with Smart in particular, part of the argument – as far as I understand it – is that you could fill out your defensive unit with Smart (making it elite) because he can be a PG on offense. So it's tough for me to look at the effect he had on his team's defense without considering the offensive ability that allowed this effect to happen in the first place.

Key to Smart's impact is not only that he can play versatile defense (others can do that as well) but that he can do it in line-ups that coaches actually like to put out there. Just as a thought experiment, imagine a player that is a Smart clone on defense but cannot play PG on offense. If this player replaces the real Smart on the Celtics, that defense probably takes a nosedive – not because of what the replacement can do on defense, but because his limitations on offense lead the coaches to put out more exploitable line-ups in order to keep the offense afloat.

I think it's important to be clear about what we want to take into account for our evaluation. If we look purely at on-court impact, defined as your ability to lift line-ups defensively, none of that really matters. We would simply look at what happens on the court and try – to the best of our ability – to assess what is going on. But if we decide to look beyond that, including the impact a player had on team construction and line-up choices that proved to lead to an elite defense, then we'll have to ask ourselves some tough philosophical questions. Because in those cases, the lines between offensive and defensive impact become really blurry. At least that's what it appears like to me.

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