Tatum VS Luka

[SelfishPlayer]

Luka is the way better halfcourt player, so now its not

Luka is too ball dominant and doesn't play much defense. Tatum plays defense and allows for more versatility in roster construction being that he doesn't need specific kinds of players around him, he's not needy. Just put good NBA players around Tatum, not "shooters" and/or "guys that understand they will not get the ball." Tatum plays team basketball, while Luka is the team. Luka doesn't play much defense so that approach will never work without him playing with a player as good as Steph Curry, Durant, Shaq, etc... You can't build a Pistons style champion with Luka while you can with Tatum. Luka is his own organization for better or worse.

The defence is a factor that can't be ignored. Don't get me wrong, in a vacuum I don't know I would pick between the two if I was starting a team, and that's coming from a celtics fan. But ignoring the value of defence and not being targeted on defence is a big deal

The one thing that I mentioned which is a unique point is that you just simply need to put good NBA players around Tatum. You need to put appropriate players around Luka. You can have a team constructed of 3-4 Jason Tatum clones and be a championship contender. If you have a team with 3-4 Luka clones, are they a contender? Players that "need the ball" can't be at their best with Luka. Tatum doesn't stand in the way of that sort of player.

[Bob8]

Luka is too ball dominant and doesn't play much defense. Tatum plays defense and allows for more versatility in roster construction being that he doesn't need specific kinds of players around him, he's not needy. Just put good NBA players around Tatum, not "shooters" and/or "guys that understand they will not get the ball." Tatum plays team basketball, while Luka is the team. Luka doesn't play much defense so that approach will never work without him playing with a player as good as Steph Curry, Durant, Shaq, etc... You can't build a Pistons style champion with Luka while you can with Tatum. Luka is his own organization for better or worse.

The defence is a factor that can't be ignored. Don't get me wrong, in a vacuum I don't know I would pick between the two if I was starting a team, and that's coming from a celtics fan. But ignoring the value of defence and not being targeted on defence is a big deal

The one thing that I mentioned which is a unique point is that you just simply need to put good NBA players around Tatum. You need to put appropriate players around Luka. You can have a team constructed of 3-4 Jason Tatum clones and be a championship contender. If you have a team with 3-4 Luka clones, are they a contender? Players that "need the ball" can't be at their best with Luka. Tatum doesn't stand in the way of that sort of player.

Mavs just made WCF with Luka and bunch of role players, who aren't even elite defenders. Just put Boston D around
Luka and it might be enough. How do you think Luka would have looked in D with Smart and Williams or how would Tatum have looked with Brunson and Powell? I believe it's much easier to play good D, if you have elite teammates playing D with you.

Beauty of having Luka is, that you don't need another 2 elite players, if you build a good team around him. Mavs are not there yet.

Anyway Luka and Tatum in are first all Nba team, highly unlikely any team can have 3-4 top players in their team.

[SelfishPlayer]

The defence is a factor that can't be ignored. Don't get me wrong, in a vacuum I don't know I would pick between the two if I was starting a team, and that's coming from a celtics fan. But ignoring the value of defence and not being targeted on defence is a big deal

The one thing that I mentioned which is a unique point is that you just simply need to put good NBA players around Tatum. You need to put appropriate players around Luka. You can have a team constructed of 3-4 Jason Tatum clones and be a championship contender. If you have a team with 3-4 Luka clones, are they a contender? Players that "need the ball" can't be at their best with Luka. Tatum doesn't stand in the way of that sort of player.

Mavs just made WCF with Luka and bunch of role players, who aren't even elite defenders. Just put Boston D around
Luka and it might be enough. How do you think Luka would have looked in D with Smart and Williams or how would Tatum have looked with Brunson and Powell? I believe it's much easier to play good D, if you have elite teammates playing D with you.

Beauty of having Luka is, that you don't need another 2 elite players, if you build a good team around him. Mavs are not there yet.

Anyway Luka and Tatum in are first all Nba team, highly unlikely any team can have 3-4 top players in their team.

If we surround Luka with Smart and Williams, do their poor three point shooting also come with them? If Brunson were in Boston he would have been a starter in his career much sooner and possibly an NBA All Star as Tatum would not be in his path to success.

[Bob8]

The one thing that I mentioned which is a unique point is that you just simply need to put good NBA players around Tatum. You need to put appropriate players around Luka. You can have a team constructed of 3-4 Jason Tatum clones and be a championship contender. If you have a team with 3-4 Luka clones, are they a contender? Players that "need the ball" can't be at their best with Luka. Tatum doesn't stand in the way of that sort of player.

Mavs just made WCF with Luka and bunch of role players, who aren't even elite defenders. Just put Boston D around
Luka and it might be enough. How do you think Luka would have looked in D with Smart and Williams or how would Tatum have looked with Brunson and Powell? I believe it's much easier to play good D, if you have elite teammates playing D with you.

Beauty of having Luka is, that you don't need another 2 elite players, if you build a good team around him. Mavs are not there yet.

Anyway Luka and Tatum in are first all Nba team, highly unlikely any team can have 3-4 top players in their team.

If we surround Luka with Smart and Williams, do their poor three point shooting also come with them? If Brunson were in Boston he would have been a starter in his career much sooner and possibly an NBA All Star as Tatum would not be in his path to success.

Boston is in the Final because of D, there's no way Brunson can replace what Smart is doing.

Williams is replacing Powell's 2/3. Smart is great fit with Luka and Tatum has in Brown everything and more than Brunson brings to Mavs.

[hugepatsfan]

The Celtics build their team entirely differently around Tatum. The Mavs surround him with better 3 point shooters because that's their end goal. Everything is designed to either scored by Luka or directly facilitated by Luka.

BOS runs lots of offense through Tatum (and Brown) but the end goal isn't for them to make the final pass on every play The Celtics are full of guys who can attack close outs and facilitate. They don't play with guys who sacrifice an all around offensive game for better 3 point shooting. Sometimes those guys will get the ball right back to Tatum (or Brown) in a better position.

Smart, White, Grant Williams, Horford and R. Williams are ALL good passers. They aren't pure shooters like Luka has, but they're all capable of making the game easy for Tatum (and Brown). It's not entirely reliant on Tatum (or Brown) to make the game easier for them.

[dirkdiggler4177]

Let's trade Tatum for Luka. Will Celtics fans actually do that?

Horford >>> Powell
Jaylen Brown >> Dorian Finney-Smith
Grant William > Bullock
Smart < Brunson

I give Mavs bench.

[nikster]

The one thing that I mentioned which is a unique point is that you just simply need to put good NBA players around Tatum. You need to put appropriate players around Luka. You can have a team constructed of 3-4 Jason Tatum clones and be a championship contender. If you have a team with 3-4 Luka clones, are they a contender? Players that "need the ball" can't be at their best with Luka. Tatum doesn't stand in the way of that sort of player.

Mavs just made WCF with Luka and bunch of role players, who aren't even elite defenders. Just put Boston D around
Luka and it might be enough. How do you think Luka would have looked in D with Smart and Williams or how would Tatum have looked with Brunson and Powell? I believe it's much easier to play good D, if you have elite teammates playing D with you.

Beauty of having Luka is, that you don't need another 2 elite players, if you build a good team around him. Mavs are not there yet.

Anyway Luka and Tatum in are first all Nba team, highly unlikely any team can have 3-4 top players in their team.

If we surround Luka with Smart and Williams, do their poor three point shooting also come with them? If Brunson were in Boston he would have been a starter in his career much sooner and possibly an NBA All Star as Tatum would not be in his path to success.

You realize Boston started the season with locker room troubles and a bad offense because their 2 stars were taking turns playing hero ball right? They didn't really move the ball more than Dallas did this year.

This season Jalens counting stats go up with Luka off the floor but his efficiency goes down. Is Tatum holding back Brown and Smart because their counting stats are higher with Tatum on the bench?

[Slax]

The defence is a factor that can't be ignored. Don't get me wrong, in a vacuum I don't know I would pick between the two if I was starting a team, and that's coming from a celtics fan. But ignoring the value of defence and not being targeted on defence is a big deal

The one thing that I mentioned which is a unique point is that you just simply need to put good NBA players around Tatum. You need to put appropriate players around Luka. You can have a team constructed of 3-4 Jason Tatum clones and be a championship contender. If you have a team with 3-4 Luka clones, are they a contender? Players that "need the ball" can't be at their best with Luka. Tatum doesn't stand in the way of that sort of player.

Mavs just made WCF with Luka and bunch of role players, who aren't even elite defenders. Just put Boston D around
Luka and it might be enough. How do you think Luka would have looked in D with Smart and Williams or how would Tatum have looked with Brunson and Powell? I believe it's much easier to play good D, if you have elite teammates playing D with you.

Beauty of having Luka is, that you don't need another 2 elite players, if you build a good team around him. Mavs are not there yet.

Anyway Luka and Tatum in are first all Nba team, highly unlikely any team can have 3-4 top players in their team.

Tatum looked like a good defender when he was playing next to Kemba Walker and Enes Kanter. I have no objection to anyone picking Luka over Tatum because of his other talents, but they're just objectively not comparable defenders.

[Bob8]

Let's trade Tatum for Luka. Will Celtics fans actually do that?

Horford >>> Powell
Jaylen Brown >> Dorian Finney-Smith
Grant William > Bullock
Smart < Brunson

I give Mavs bench.

Smart is more valuable with Luka than Brunson, especially if you already have Brown with 18 FGA. Even if you just trade Smart for Brunson, it's very likely that Brunson gets less FGA in Boston than he has in Mavs. And Boston's D gets hit big time.

[Bob8]

The one thing that I mentioned which is a unique point is that you just simply need to put good NBA players around Tatum. You need to put appropriate players around Luka. You can have a team constructed of 3-4 Jason Tatum clones and be a championship contender. If you have a team with 3-4 Luka clones, are they a contender? Players that "need the ball" can't be at their best with Luka. Tatum doesn't stand in the way of that sort of player.

Mavs just made WCF with Luka and bunch of role players, who aren't even elite defenders. Just put Boston D around
Luka and it might be enough. How do you think Luka would have looked in D with Smart and Williams or how would Tatum have looked with Brunson and Powell? I believe it's much easier to play good D, if you have elite teammates playing D with you.

Beauty of having Luka is, that you don't need another 2 elite players, if you build a good team around him. Mavs are not there yet.

Anyway Luka and Tatum in are first all Nba team, highly unlikely any team can have 3-4 top players in their team.

Tatum looked like a good defender when he was playing next to Kemba Walker and Enes Kanter. I have no objection to anyone picking Luka over Tatum because of his other talents, but they're just objectively not comparable defenders.

I'm not saying that they are, I'm saying that Luka would have looked much better with DPOY and rim protector.

[BodieB]

Nearly a dozen. Jokic, Luka, KD, Steph, Trae and LeBron (even at his old age lol) are clearly better offensive players and then you have guys like Giannis and Embiid that can just completely dominate on the offensive end even though they aren't as skilled as Tatum. Players like Ja, Booker, Mitchell, DeRozan and Butler are probably just behind Tatum because they have some pretty clear weaknesses on the offensive end, but it's not absurd to think they're on a similar level. Harden had a really weird season and he seems to be on the downswing, but he's in that range too. That last batch of players are basically a bunch of really good 1B type options along with Tatum.

The difference between Tatum and most of those other players is that he has a clear #2 in Brown (23/7/4 on 60 TS% in 38 MPG) and he's getting solid contributions from Smart+Horford (combining for 27.5 PTS on 57 TS%) in addition to an elite defence behind him (#1 in the season and #2 in the playoffs).

Well outside of the names it looks like you forced in there at the end (DeRozan, Butler, Ja), most of the one's that you state are clearly better are arguable.

I'd love to hear reasoning as to why Tatum is a better offensive player than any of Jokic, Luka, KD, Steph, Trae, LeBron, Giannis or Embiid. The only ones from that list that are remotely debatable are Trae (because he's small) and LeBron (because he's nearing 40), but the rest are very clearly better on the offensive end.

Best I remember Tatum averaged more points during the playoffs than Durant while having him clamped, LeBron simply isn't the player he was, Embiid flamed out as usual, and Trae Young was awful against the Heat. Sounds plenty arguable to me.

[DroseReturnChi]

It's easier to build a championship team with Tatum than it is with Luka.

false statement. celtics actually suffer they would have 3peated if they had luka. they dont need anything tatum provides they already overlap in smart and brown. what they need is a offensive savant. tatum reminds me of curry his team is better than he is but yet takes all the credit. at least lebron did the work.

[SelfishPlayer]

Mavs just made WCF with Luka and bunch of role players, who aren't even elite defenders. Just put Boston D around
Luka and it might be enough. How do you think Luka would have looked in D with Smart and Williams or how would Tatum have looked with Brunson and Powell? I believe it's much easier to play good D, if you have elite teammates playing D with you.

Beauty of having Luka is, that you don't need another 2 elite players, if you build a good team around him. Mavs are not there yet.

Anyway Luka and Tatum in are first all Nba team, highly unlikely any team can have 3-4 top players in their team.

If we surround Luka with Smart and Williams, do their poor three point shooting also come with them? If Brunson were in Boston he would have been a starter in his career much sooner and possibly an NBA All Star as Tatum would not be in his path to success.

Boston is in the Final because of D, there's no way Brunson can replace what Smart is doing.

Williams is replacing Powell's 2/3. Smart is great fit with Luka and Tatum has in Brown everything and more than Brunson brings to Mavs.

Tatum and Brown are virtually the same. Luka couldn't play with an All Star player that's the same but not as good. Luka and the best version of Victor Oladipo couldn't be a Finals team. Oladipo couldn't be his best self.

[SelfishPlayer]

It's easier to build a championship team with Tatum than it is with Luka.

false statement. celtics actually suffer they would have 3peated if they had luka. they dont need anything tatum provides they already overlap in smart and brown. what they need is a offensive savant. tatum reminds me of curry his team is better than he is but yet takes all the credit. at least lebron did the work.

It's easier to find good playmakers than it is to find great scorers that don't need to play make to be who they are. Luka will never be surrounded by great scorers that don't need the ball. Tatum, Curry, Jaylen Brown, are amongst the minority in the NBA, guys that can flat out score/shoot without need to dominate the basketball or "get their touches." The Warriors have always had non shooters that can play make like Iguodala, Livingston, Draymond. Those guys would fail trying to be spot up shooters for Luka. They can create for the Warriors. They have the freedom. The Mavs play "Luka Ball"

[SelfishPlayer]

Mavs just made WCF with Luka and bunch of role players, who aren't even elite defenders. Just put Boston D around
Luka and it might be enough. How do you think Luka would have looked in D with Smart and Williams or how would Tatum have looked with Brunson and Powell? I believe it's much easier to play good D, if you have elite teammates playing D with you.

Beauty of having Luka is, that you don't need another 2 elite players, if you build a good team around him. Mavs are not there yet.

Anyway Luka and Tatum in are first all Nba team, highly unlikely any team can have 3-4 top players in their team.

If we surround Luka with Smart and Williams, do their poor three point shooting also come with them? If Brunson were in Boston he would have been a starter in his career much sooner and possibly an NBA All Star as Tatum would not be in his path to success.

You realize Boston started the season with locker room troubles and a bad offense because their 2 stars were taking turns playing hero ball right? They didn't really move the ball more than Dallas did this year.

This season Jalens counting stats go up with Luka off the floor but his efficiency goes down. Is Tatum holding back Brown and Smart because their counting stats are higher with Tatum on the bench?

Your efficiency should increase when you flat out attempt less because you aren't required to do more. Players over the last 10 years play fewer minutes and are expected to have higher efficiency than guys of the past. When a superstar sits the bench and you are asked to do more, efficiency should go down as you attempt to do more than you are allowed to do when that superstar is playing with you. Brunson could play more of his game with Tatum because Tatum is fine with cold blooded scoring and defense. Luka needs to make plays too and massage the basketball.

[SelfishPlayer]

The Celtics build their team entirely differently around Tatum. The Mavs surround him with better 3 point shooters because that's their end goal. Everything is designed to either scored by Luka or directly facilitated by Luka.

BOS runs lots of offense through Tatum (and Brown) but the end goal isn't for them to make the final pass on every play The Celtics are full of guys who can attack close outs and facilitate. They don't play with guys who sacrifice an all around offensive game for better 3 point shooting. Sometimes those guys will get the ball right back to Tatum (or Brown) in a better position.

Smart, White, Grant Williams, Horford and R. Williams are ALL good passers. They aren't pure shooters like Luka has, but they're all capable of making the game easy for Tatum (and Brown). It's not entirely reliant on Tatum (or Brown) to make the game easier for them.

Even Michael Jordan wasn't surrounded by shooters. Only Lebron is good enough to be surrounded this way with a team looking for him to create just about all offense. But Lebron could also play elite defense when necessary, but certainly make defensive plays every single game. MJ had Pippen, Kukoc, and Harper making plays. Luka ball makes Luka look great not win great.

[PT416]

It's Luka by a large margin.
Is Tatum even better than Pierce yet? He will be, but it's arguable if he's even there yet.
Luka has been a rich man's Pierce for his entire career.

[Bob8]

The Celtics build their team entirely differently around Tatum. The Mavs surround him with better 3 point shooters because that's their end goal. Everything is designed to either scored by Luka or directly facilitated by Luka.

BOS runs lots of offense through Tatum (and Brown) but the end goal isn't for them to make the final pass on every play The Celtics are full of guys who can attack close outs and facilitate. They don't play with guys who sacrifice an all around offensive game for better 3 point shooting. Sometimes those guys will get the ball right back to Tatum (or Brown) in a better position.

Smart, White, Grant Williams, Horford and R. Williams are ALL good passers. They aren't pure shooters like Luka has, but they're all capable of making the game easy for Tatum (and Brown). It's not entirely reliant on Tatum (or Brown) to make the game easier for them.

Even Michael Jordan wasn't surrounded by shooters. Only Lebron is good enough to be surrounded this way with a team looking for him to create just about all offense. But Lebron could also play elite defense when necessary, but certainly make defensive plays every single game. MJ had Pippen, Kukoc, and Harper making plays. Luka ball makes Luka look great not win great.

23 years old and WCF with Powell on C looks pretty good to me. Good rim protector and better D on guard position could be enough for title. Mavs will build better team in next few years and we will see then, what Luka is capable of. 3 times first All Nba team and WCF is very promising start, difficult to see anyone doing more in Dallas in that period.

[ChartFiction]

It's Luka by a large margin.
Is Tatum even better than Pierce yet? He will be, but it's arguable if he's even there yet.
Luka has been a rich man's Pierce for his entire career.

Luka has awful on/off stats. Mediocre efficiency. Poor Ast/TO ratio. Ballstopper. No defense.

https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/4432/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/4268/onoff#tab-team_efficiency

There's no meaningful measure that proves he's anything more than any typical helioball stat stuffer and is worse in measured effectiveness than the others in that class.

[Bob8]

It's Luka by a large margin.
Is Tatum even better than Pierce yet? He will be, but it's arguable if he's even there yet.
Luka has been a rich man's Pierce for his entire career.

Luka has awful on/off stats. Mediocre efficiency. Poor Ast/TO ratio. Ballstopper. No defense.

https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/4432/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/4268/onoff#tab-team_efficiency

There's no meaningful measure that proves he's anything more than any typical helioball stat stuffer and is worse in measured effectiveness than the others in that class.

So you're telling us that Mavs were in WCF because of Brunson, DFS, Bullock and Powell? Put Tatum instead of him and they're winning title?