Will they resign sexton?

[toooskies]

I think the Cavs match Sexton at $17M rather than watch him walk to Boston for free. Also, Boston will be a tax team next year before signing Sexton with $155M in committed salary. While I haven't crunched the numbers, and don't know whether they could even sign Sexton legally under those circumstances, would they want to at the actual cost in terms of dollars? Brown is only under contract for two more seasons.

Boston can take him as a $17m S&T. You can't use a TPE for a direct free agent signing, only in another trade. So no, it's not "for free". But they could absorb the salary at a $21m contract and send out, say, Nesmith and Grant Williams.

Alternately, they take up to $17m in salary from a third team, the Cavs send Sexton to that team (up to $21m or so), and the Cavs take any amount of salary the Celtics or the third team care to send out to us up to Sexton's BYC-adjusted salary number.

As far as Portland, they have Simons as RFA, and Nurkic as an UFA, and many, many needs to fill outside of guard, which is still, after trading for Hart, one of their deepest positions. Imagine a Sexton/Lillard starting backcourt.

Not a threat to direct-sign, but definitely a possibility in a three-way deal. Let's say Jerami Grant to POR; Sexton+ to Detroit; ??? to Cleveland, with a total salary under half of Sexton's salary. (Detroit then uses cap space on other free agents.)

In terms of BYC, my understanding is that the Cavs cannot circumvent the restriction by sending out other players to match salary. The receiving team can send out salary to a third team, or split its outgoing salary, but the Cavs have to make the numbers work independently, or have the cap space to absorb the difference. The rule is set up that way so that teams without cap space cannot continuously manufacture space over the cap by trading guys coming off of rookie deals.

The rule only affects the outgoing salary of the S&T player, there are no restrictions on aggregation of that salary with others that I could find. One site (cbafaq.com) even recommends adding salary to S&T deals on both sides to make a BYC-restricted deal work. The BYC rule does make these transactions harder, but trade exceptions

All of the Pistons, Magic, Pacers, Spurs, and Portland have top 10 picks. Those cap holds will apply before F.A. begins. The Thunder still have Kemba's $27M on the books and SGA's extension kicking in this summer. Once you allot for the cap hold for the No. 2 overall pick, they actually have very little space. So yeah, they could take a pretty big contract into that slot before the new league year, but I imagine Presti would want at least a first for doing so, and a decent first, assuming the owners even let him.

I'm not saying that a team couldn't clear the space to sign Sexton outright, but it would be neither easy nor cheap. If the Knicks want Sexton, and are unwilling to send back anything we want, that's exactly what they're going to have to do.

Again, this is all to get Sexton into a workable S&T while working around the BYC rules, not to say what value we would need to see to entertain going through with it.

[jbk1234]

I think the Cavs match Sexton at $17M rather than watch him walk to Boston for free. Also, Boston will be a tax team next year before signing Sexton with $155M in committed salary. While I haven't crunched the numbers, and don't know whether they could even sign Sexton legally under those circumstances, would they want to at the actual cost in terms of dollars? Brown is only under contract for two more seasons.

Boston can take him as a $17m S&T. You can't use a TPE for a direct free agent signing, only in another trade. So no, it's not "for free". But they could absorb the salary at a $21m contract and send out, say, Nesmith and Grant Williams.

Alternately, they take up to $17m in salary from a third team, the Cavs send Sexton to that team (up to $21m or so), and the Cavs take any amount of salary the Celtics or the third team care to send out to us up to Sexton's BYC-adjusted salary number.

As far as Portland, they have Simons as RFA, and Nurkic as an UFA, and many, many needs to fill outside of guard, which is still, after trading for Hart, one of their deepest positions. Imagine a Sexton/Lillard starting backcourt.

Not a threat to direct-sign, but definitely a possibility in a three-way deal. Let's say Jerami Grant to POR; Sexton+ to Detroit; ??? to Cleveland, with a total salary under half of Sexton's salary. (Detroit then uses cap space on other free agents.)

In terms of BYC, my understanding is that the Cavs cannot circumvent the restriction by sending out other players to match salary. The receiving team can send out salary to a third team, or split its outgoing salary, but the Cavs have to make the numbers work independently, or have the cap space to absorb the difference. The rule is set up that way so that teams without cap space cannot continuously manufacture space over the cap by trading guys coming off of rookie deals.

The rule only affects the outgoing salary of the S&T player, there are no restrictions on aggregation of that salary with others that I could find. One site (cbafaq.com) even recommends adding salary to S&T deals on both sides to make a BYC-restricted deal work. The BYC rule does make these transactions harder, but trade exceptions

All of the Pistons, Magic, Pacers, Spurs, and Portland have top 10 picks. Those cap holds will apply before F.A. begins. The Thunder still have Kemba's $27M on the books and SGA's extension kicking in this summer. Once you allot for the cap hold for the No. 2 overall pick, they actually have very little space. So yeah, they could take a pretty big contract into that slot before the new league year, but I imagine Presti would want at least a first for doing so, and a decent first, assuming the owners even let him.

I'm not saying that a team couldn't clear the space to sign Sexton outright, but it would be neither easy nor cheap. If the Knicks want Sexton, and are unwilling to send back anything we want, that's exactly what they're going to have to do.

Again, this is all to get Sexton into a workable S&T while working around the BYC rules, not to say what value we would need to see to entertain going through with it.

Resistance would be a good guy to check with. I don't know when that cbafaq.com was updated last, but there are plenty of people on the T&T board who seem to think the Cavs can't send out additional salary.

[toooskies]

Resistance would be a good guy to check with. I don't know when that cbafaq.com was updated last, but there are plenty of people on the T&T board who seem to think the Cavs can't send out additional salary.

Thanks for checking and verifying that I was correct.

That said, the Cavs might not have to match, I imagine they've done some explorations of S&T deals to come to this conclusion:

Read on Twitter

So I don't see us doing anything but matching or negotiating our own deal unless somebody strikes out in free agency.

[Revenged25]

Nothing NORTH of 20 mil, so they expect someone, possibly even them, giving him 20 mil a year.

[jbk1234]

Nothing NORTH of 20 mil, so they expect someone, possibly even them, giving him 20 mil a year.

To me, this is the Cavs telling Klutch that they're not going to entertain contract talks where their starting place is north of $20M per. They're very comfortable with Sexton testing the market if that's where he's at, and frankly, if both LaVine and Kyrie hit the free agency market, things could get rough for Sexton in a hurry. This is especially the case if the Pistons draft Ivey or Sharpe.

[jbk1234]

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=aFLDeIYmaKNAnZNbX9un2A

[JonFromVA]

I think Collin is wired to want to bet on himself and I'd be surprised if he saw himself as anything less than the lead guard on a team even if he's been willing to play SG on the Cavs. I could even see him take less money if it meant getting that opportunity.

What the rest of the league thinks, alas is a different matter, and we're just going to have to wait and see how free-agency shakes out and who's still looking for a lead guard after the draft and the first wave of signings.

I don't think it's worked out very well, but it seems the right conditions for him to end up taking the QO ...

[jbk1234]

I think Collin is wired to want to bet on himself and I'd be surprised if he saw himself as anything less than the lead guard on a team even if he's been willing to play SG on the Cavs. I could even see him take less money if it meant getting that opportunity.

What the rest of the league thinks, alas is a different matter, and we're just going to have to wait and see how free-agency shakes out and who's still looking for a lead guard after the draft and the first wave of signings.

I don't think it's worked out very well, but it seems the right conditions for him to end up taking the QO ...

I mean starting guard money encompasses a pretty broad range as a theoretical matter so the money factor here isn't unworkable. But, I agree with you as far as Sexton seeing himself as the lead guard, and my concern is that he'd rather be the lead guard on a bad team than a sixth man on a good one. A team like the Spurs were as successful as they were, for as long as they were, because Ginobli was willing to be a sixth man despite being good enough to start for most of the teams in the NBA, and Sexton isn't nearly the well-rounded player Ginobli was. Sexton's mindset could change over the course of his career, but time is a luxury neither side has, and the only way he might change his priorities is to go be the lead guard on a bad team for three or four years somewhere else.

[JonFromVA]

I think Collin is wired to want to bet on himself and I'd be surprised if he saw himself as anything less than the lead guard on a team even if he's been willing to play SG on the Cavs. I could even see him take less money if it meant getting that opportunity.

What the rest of the league thinks, alas is a different matter, and we're just going to have to wait and see how free-agency shakes out and who's still looking for a lead guard after the draft and the first wave of signings.

I don't think it's worked out very well, but it seems the right conditions for him to end up taking the QO ...

I mean starting guard money encompasses a pretty broad range as a theoretical matter so the money factor here isn't unworkable. But, I agree with you as far as Sexton seeing himself as the lead guard, and my concern is that he'd rather be the lead guard on a bad team than a sixth man on a good one. A team like the Spurs were as successful as they were, for as long as they were, because Ginobli was willing to be a sixth man despite being good enough to start for most of the teams in the NBA, and Sexton isn't nearly the well-rounded player Ginobli was. Sexton's mindset could change over the course of his career, but time is a luxury neither side has, and the only way he might change his priorities is to go be the lead guard on a bad team for three or four years somewhere else.

It's one thing to be a backup and another to be paid like one, but what happened in San Antonio was extremely atypical.

When the Spurs faced the Heatles for the first time, James/Wade/Bosh were all getting their $17M while Ginobli was the highest paid Spur (that season) at $14M, Parker got $12.5M, and Timmy accepted a huge cut and was only making $9.6M.

We can't duplicate that with Rich Paul negotiating for our players, but one part we should try to emulate is the cheap depth the Spurs were able to build. Kawhi Leonard, Cory Joseph, Patty Mills, Gary Neal, and Aaron Banes were all on that roster, young, and cheap. They even had Danny Green on his second contract at just $3.5M.

Anyway, if I was Collin's agent I'd be telling him to hang in there until someone at least offers us Terry Rozier money ... and if I was the Cavs GM, I'd be very concerned with paying Collin starter's money when he hasn't demonstrated we can win with him doing that (just that we can without him). So, the impasse is pretty understandable to me.

[jbk1234]

I think Collin is wired to want to bet on himself and I'd be surprised if he saw himself as anything less than the lead guard on a team even if he's been willing to play SG on the Cavs. I could even see him take less money if it meant getting that opportunity.

What the rest of the league thinks, alas is a different matter, and we're just going to have to wait and see how free-agency shakes out and who's still looking for a lead guard after the draft and the first wave of signings.

I don't think it's worked out very well, but it seems the right conditions for him to end up taking the QO ...

I mean starting guard money encompasses a pretty broad range as a theoretical matter so the money factor here isn't unworkable. But, I agree with you as far as Sexton seeing himself as the lead guard, and my concern is that he'd rather be the lead guard on a bad team than a sixth man on a good one. A team like the Spurs were as successful as they were, for as long as they were, because Ginobli was willing to be a sixth man despite being good enough to start for most of the teams in the NBA, and Sexton isn't nearly the well-rounded player Ginobli was. Sexton's mindset could change over the course of his career, but time is a luxury neither side has, and the only way he might change his priorities is to go be the lead guard on a bad team for three or four years somewhere else.

It's one thing to be a backup and another to be paid like one, but what happened in San Antonio was extremely atypical.

When the Spurs faced the Heatles for the first time, James/Wade/Bosh were all getting their $17M while Ginobli was the highest paid Spur (that season) at $14M, Parker got $12.5M, and Timmy accepted a huge cut and was only making $9.6M.

We can't duplicate that with Rich Paul negotiating for our players, but one part we should try to emulate is the cheap depth the Spurs were able to build. Kawhi Leonard, Cory Joseph, Patty Mills, Gary Neal, and Aaron Banes were all on that roster, young, and cheap. They even had Danny Green on his second contract at just $3.5M.

Anyway, if I was Collin's agent I'd be telling him to hang in there until someone at least offers us Terry Rozier money ... and if I was the Cavs GM, I'd be very concerned with paying Collin starter's money when he hasn't demonstrated we can win with him doing that (just that we can without him). So, the impasse is pretty understandable to me.

If Sexton got $16M per, he'd be the highest paid sixth man in the NBA (and no K. Love doesn't count because no one envisioned him in that role when he was extended and we certainly wouldn't re-sign him to that contract to fill that role ). If Sexton received $18M per, that's lower end starter money. That type of contract implicitly recognizes he's more than just a backup.

As far as someone offering him Rozier money, good luck. Most front offices don't have Rozier as good value on that deal (I have him as neutral personally). The rubber is going to meet the road if an over-the-cap team like the Knicks decides they'd rather pay Sexton that money than deal with all their other bad contracts and Klutch's solution is for the Cavs just to take back those bad deals.

There's still a lot left to shake out. The Pistons could draft a wing instead of a guard, or a team in front of them could have one of the guard's higher than whichever of the top-3 big men is left on the board. Kyrie could opt in for his last year and try to rehabilitate his relationship with the Nets (if not his overall market across the NBA). LaVine could re-sign with the Bulls on a 5 year max (after Klutch scares them into doing so). Simons could already have a deal lined up with the Blazers and get signed on day one of F.A.

But any combination of those events could break the other way as well, in which case, Sexton is going to be very disappointed with his market this summer.

[toooskies]

Anyway, if I was Collin's agent I'd be telling him to hang in there until someone at least offers us Terry Rozier money ... and if I was the Cavs GM, I'd be very concerned with paying Collin starter's money when he hasn't demonstrated we can win with him doing that (just that we can without him). So, the impasse is pretty understandable to me.

To be fair, management and injuries set up all the previous years of Sexton's tenure to fail regardless of his performance. While you can't claim that Sexton looks like a significant positive influence, you also can't say that he's the reason we were losing.

Bringing Sexton back on a short-term contract is probably best for both sides-- I'm starting to come around to jbk's idea of a number close to Sexton's, but only one year guaranteed.

[jbk1234]

Anyway, if I was Collin's agent I'd be telling him to hang in there until someone at least offers us Terry Rozier money ... and if I was the Cavs GM, I'd be very concerned with paying Collin starter's money when he hasn't demonstrated we can win with him doing that (just that we can without him). So, the impasse is pretty understandable to me.

To be fair, management and injuries set up all the previous years of Sexton's tenure to fail regardless of his performance. While you can't claim that Sexton looks like a significant positive influence, you also can't say that he's the reason we were losing.

Bringing Sexton back on a short-term contract is probably best for both sides-- I'm starting to come around to jbk's idea of a number close to Sexton's, but only one year guaranteed.

This absolves Sexton of any responsibility to the point of it being pretty inaccurate. There's enough reporting out there about him being difficult to coach and frustrating his teammates. Bickerstaff was ready to take him out of the starting lineup three different times before Covid, Drummond, and his own injury intervened. Also, your defense doesn't stay as bad as his into your fourth season unless you decide it's just not a priority.

[JonFromVA]

Anyway, if I was Collin's agent I'd be telling him to hang in there until someone at least offers us Terry Rozier money ... and if I was the Cavs GM, I'd be very concerned with paying Collin starter's money when he hasn't demonstrated we can win with him doing that (just that we can without him). So, the impasse is pretty understandable to me.

To be fair, management and injuries set up all the previous years of Sexton's tenure to fail regardless of his performance. While you can't claim that Sexton looks like a significant positive influence, you also can't say that he's the reason we were losing.

Bringing Sexton back on a short-term contract is probably best for both sides-- I'm starting to come around to jbk's idea of a number close to Sexton's, but only one year guaranteed.

There are signs he can help us win, but obviously nobody is willing to bet on it or we would have gotten serious trade offers.

[toooskies]

Anyway, if I was Collin's agent I'd be telling him to hang in there until someone at least offers us Terry Rozier money ... and if I was the Cavs GM, I'd be very concerned with paying Collin starter's money when he hasn't demonstrated we can win with him doing that (just that we can without him). So, the impasse is pretty understandable to me.

To be fair, management and injuries set up all the previous years of Sexton's tenure to fail regardless of his performance. While you can't claim that Sexton looks like a significant positive influence, you also can't say that he's the reason we were losing.

Bringing Sexton back on a short-term contract is probably best for both sides-- I'm starting to come around to jbk's idea of a number close to Sexton's, but only one year guaranteed.

There are signs he can help us win, but obviously nobody is willing to bet on it or we would have gotten serious trade offers.

It's a fallacy to assume that every reported rumor is a) true or b) the entire story. We have no idea if we got offers or not, we only know that we didn't accept any. We don't know if Sexton almost got benched, but we do know he started last season over two guys that started the year before (Rubio and Okoro).

[jbk1234]

To be fair, management and injuries set up all the previous years of Sexton's tenure to fail regardless of his performance. While you can't claim that Sexton looks like a significant positive influence, you also can't say that he's the reason we were losing.

Bringing Sexton back on a short-term contract is probably best for both sides-- I'm starting to come around to jbk's idea of a number close to Sexton's, but only one year guaranteed.

There are signs he can help us win, but obviously nobody is willing to bet on it or we would have gotten serious trade offers.

It's a fallacy to assume that every reported rumor is a) true or b) the entire story. We have no idea if we got offers or not, we only know that we didn't accept any. We don't know if Sexton almost got benched, but we do know he started last season over two guys that started the year before (Rubio and Okoro).

He was already getting benched to close out games before he got hurt.

[JonFromVA]

To be fair, management and injuries set up all the previous years of Sexton's tenure to fail regardless of his performance. While you can't claim that Sexton looks like a significant positive influence, you also can't say that he's the reason we were losing.

Bringing Sexton back on a short-term contract is probably best for both sides-- I'm starting to come around to jbk's idea of a number close to Sexton's, but only one year guaranteed.

There are signs he can help us win, but obviously nobody is willing to bet on it or we would have gotten serious trade offers.

It's a fallacy to assume that every reported rumor is a) true or b) the entire story. We have no idea if we got offers or not, we only know that we didn't accept any. We don't know if Sexton almost got benched, but we do know he started last season over two guys that started the year before (Rubio and Okoro).

I've never assumed every reported rumor is true, I always sanity check then vs reality, correlate to other rumors and then graded them by source.

In Collin's case you need only look at his history on the team to realize there's a disconnect - otherwise he'd be under contract already. The numbers tell you why there's a disconnect and we also know the history of the league and the shaky value of
short PGs who can't play PG or defend.

And then there's the ascension of Garland...

So its not really hard to see the rumors of the team's dissatisfaction with Collin, that they've tried to shop him, and found no offers worth the bother and then hedged their bets with LeVert.

And while fan opinions don't mean much, most trade offers from fans of other teams have been trash. Strange for a 24ppg scorer ...

And yet I do believe he has value to the Cavs and potential beyond his trade value, but he's not a guy the Cavs need to overpay because he hasn't proven he can help us win.

[JonFromVA]

There are signs he can help us win, but obviously nobody is willing to bet on it or we would have gotten serious trade offers.

It's a fallacy to assume that every reported rumor is a) true or b) the entire story. We have no idea if we got offers or not, we only know that we didn't accept any. We don't know if Sexton almost got benched, but we do know he started last season over two guys that started the year before (Rubio and Okoro).

He was already getting benched to close out games before he got hurt.

I suspect if there weren't other "factors" that JBB would have named Isaac the stater over Collin ... he loves the kid even when he brings nothing but playing hard on D.

[jbk1234]

It's a fallacy to assume that every reported rumor is a) true or b) the entire story. We have no idea if we got offers or not, we only know that we didn't accept any. We don't know if Sexton almost got benched, but we do know he started last season over two guys that started the year before (Rubio and Okoro).

He was already getting benched to close out games before he got hurt.

I suspect if there weren't other "factors" that JBB would have named Isaac the stater over Collin ... he loves the kid even when he brings nothing but playing hard on D.

Also, Sexton was already starting to lose PT and *lead guard* responsibilities to KPJ before Covid hit in February of 2020. That's not a report, that's what was starting to happen. That overtime win against the Heat at home, which I'm pretty sure was the last game they played that season, Sexton was on the bench to finish that game IIRC.

There's also no reason to doubt the report about the Cavs asking Drummond if he'd move to the bench with Sexton given Drummond's reaction in 2021. The Cavs were getting run out of the gym regularly at that point. It would've been stupid not to try to mix it up.

[toooskies]

He was already getting benched to close out games before he got hurt.

I suspect if there weren't other "factors" that JBB would have named Isaac the stater over Collin ... he loves the kid even when he brings nothing but playing hard on D.

Also, Sexton was already starting to lose PT and *lead guard* responsibilities to KPJ before Covid hit in February of 2020. That's not a report, that's what was starting to happen. That overtime win against the Heat at home, which I'm pretty sure was the last game they played that season, Sexton was on the bench to finish that game IIRC.

There's also no reason to doubt the report about the Cavs asking Drummond if he'd move to the bench with Sexton given Drummond's reaction in 2021. The Cavs were getting run out of the gym regularly at that point. It would've been stupid not to try to mix it up.

I know February-March 2020 is hard to remember accurately, but luckily the stats from those months is online and there were 8 more games played after the Heat game, all but one of which Sexton played more than KPJ. You're literally attached to a one-game sample where we just didn't take out a bench unit that was playing well together that day.

[JonFromVA]

It might had helped if Collin was with the team even more than he was, but I wonder if sitting out most of the season and watching the team operate with DG, Rubio and Rondo will help him understand the kinds of things he needs to add to his game?

Of course seeing and doing are not the same thing... but experience and knowing what everyone is doing on the floor can help make up for less than stellar court vision and floor awareness.