Tatum VS Luka

[SelfishPlayer]

The Mavs actually have a good team. People just discredit them to make Luka seem better. The Mavs actually won playoff games without Luka. No bad team can do that, rip away their best player, play a different style of basketball and win games. That team went to the western conference finals this year. Perhaps if they didn't play Luka ball they could have gone further. They certainly won playoff games without him. Perhaps if Luka played better defense and allowed other players more time with the ball in their hands they could of had a better team.

Please. Props to the supporting cast, but it speaks way more to how dysfunctional the Jazz are. Look at every playoff teams roster and come back and tell me the Mavs don't have the worst roster of any playoff team this year by far.

Give Luka the Pelicans supporting cast and the Warriors series is going either way.

Players love reading about themselves. They see all of this talk about how bad they are and how great Luka is. Luka fans don't understand this at all. They don't understand how they are feeding a negative team chemistry that these same players haven't experienced anywhere else or rarely have experienced because so few players are qualified to be positioned as a hero in a hero ball oriented organization. Keep downplaying playoff wins without Luka and watch how his hero ball teams continue to not win championships. Luka Ball doesn't even allow for a Scottie Pippen to cover him defensively. Scottie can't shoot well enough as exposed by his time in Houston playing off Hakeem and Barkley as a failed 3 and D rather than a championship point forward with Jordan.

[Gomes3PC]

Luka is the better player, but I think in the modern NBA construct it is easier to build a title contender around a guy like Tatum, Kawhi, or Butler than it is around Luka. Having an elite two-way, versatile wing seems to be the clearest path to contention, even if those guys don't have the all around 'bag' that someone like Luka has.

[Archx]

You can't have a versatile team and play hero ball/Luka ball. The Mavs are built for Luka ball.

Did you notice any difference when Luka sits? If not, then i would suggest you go back and re-watch every game. Brunson and Dinwiddie play strictly ISO ball, their assists and AST% can't even come close to Doncic's. Not to mention the other stat we showed the other day when Luka leads all league in creating quality shots for his team mates. But i guess you will dimiss everything i just said anyway.

Hero Ball needs some one on one players to take advantage of single coverage. That's not odd. Hero ball precludes these same players from doing more while the hero is in the game. Kyrie eventually got tired of being just a successful scorer and won a championship while doing so. Tatum is fine with being just a successful scorer and defender.

I don't understand, what do you want Mavs to do then? Apparently Kidd couldn't figure it out, Rick before him couldn't figure it out... I mean, if you have Cuban's number, feel free to tell them how to play differently.
Like i said, when Luka either doesn't play or sits, Brunson plays exactly the same. It's just that he doesn't even come close to Doncic's productivity levels.

[SelfishPlayer]

Did you notice any difference when Luka sits? If not, then i would suggest you go back and re-watch every game. Brunson and Dinwiddie play strictly ISO ball, their assists and AST% can't even come close to Doncic's. Not to mention the other stat we showed the other day when Luka leads all league in creating quality shots for his team mates. But i guess you will dimiss everything i just said anyway.

Hero Ball needs some one on one players to take advantage of single coverage. That's not odd. Hero ball precludes these same players from doing more while the hero is in the game. Kyrie eventually got tired of being just a successful scorer and won a championship while doing so. Tatum is fine with being just a successful scorer and defender.

I don't understand, what do you want Mavs to do then? Apparently Kidd couldn't figure it out, Rick before him couldn't figure it out... I mean, if you have Cuban's number, feel free to tell them how to play differently.
Like i said, when Luka either doesn't play or sits, Brunson plays exactly the same. It's just that he doesn't even come close to Doncic's productivity levels.

Brunson is not as good as Luka. A reality that only Luka fans feel a need to communicate. Combine that with statements about the team around him not being good enough, and no one should wonder why superstars will continue to choose to not play for the Mavs. Luka got the Mavs to the conference Finals right? Well let Luka hold that L, don't place it on the players around him not being good enough. They watched him dribble dribble dribble like the rest of us, as they are instructed to do...

[Archx]

Hero Ball needs some one on one players to take advantage of single coverage. That's not odd. Hero ball precludes these same players from doing more while the hero is in the game. Kyrie eventually got tired of being just a successful scorer and won a championship while doing so. Tatum is fine with being just a successful scorer and defender.

I don't understand, what do you want Mavs to do then? Apparently Kidd couldn't figure it out, Rick before him couldn't figure it out... I mean, if you have Cuban's number, feel free to tell them how to play differently.
Like i said, when Luka either doesn't play or sits, Brunson plays exactly the same. It's just that he doesn't even come close to Doncic's productivity levels.

Brunson is not as good as Luka. A reality that only Luka fans feel a need to communicate. Combine that with statements about the team around him not being good enough, and no one should wonder why superstars will continue to choose to not play for the Mavs. Luka got the Mavs to the conference Finals right? Well let Luka hold that L, don't place it on the players around him not being good enough. They watched him dribble dribble dribble like the rest of us, as they are instructed to do...

Brunson and DFS are two of my favorite Mavs players but i'm not delusional to think that they are something more than they actually are.

Mavs fans know they overachieved big time, Kidd even went so far to say that no one expected them to be where they are in the WCF and i'm also happy they got that far. If you think they should be something more then good for you but i watch their every game and i know what to expect or not to expect from them at this point.

[SelfishPlayer]

I don't understand, what do you want Mavs to do then? Apparently Kidd couldn't figure it out, Rick before him couldn't figure it out... I mean, if you have Cuban's number, feel free to tell them how to play differently.
Like i said, when Luka either doesn't play or sits, Brunson plays exactly the same. It's just that he doesn't even come close to Doncic's productivity levels.

Brunson is not as good as Luka. A reality that only Luka fans feel a need to communicate. Combine that with statements about the team around him not being good enough, and no one should wonder why superstars will continue to choose to not play for the Mavs. Luka got the Mavs to the conference Finals right? Well let Luka hold that L, don't place it on the players around him not being good enough. They watched him dribble dribble dribble like the rest of us, as they are instructed to do...

Brunson and DFS are two of my favorite Mavs players but i'm not delusional to think that they are something more than they actually are.

Mavs fans know they overachieved big time, Kidd even went so far to say that no one expected them to be where they are in the WCF and i'm also happy they got that far. If you think they should be something more then good for you but i watch their every game and i know what to expect or not to expect from them at this point.

Cool, no one had expectations. So where do we go from here? Do we enter next season with expectations of the Mavs to not take a step backwards, or if they fall short of the 2023 western conference finals do we then say that 2022 was fools gold because the Mavs overachieved? Not having expectations for 2022 shouldn't preclude having expectations for 2023.

[bisme37]

It's extremely close. I'm still not sure how people are coming to any other conclusion.

Luka is better on offense. He's 23 and already one of the best offensive players ever. The skills, the production, it's all there.

But Tatum is also one of the best offensive players in the league and of his generation. So there's a gap but not a huge one.

Then if we keep in mind that defense is literally half the game, the gap on that end is more significant and clearly favors Tatum.

So do you want the incredible offensive package Luka gives you or the elite two way package Tatum gives you? I dunno. Both teams are very happy with their guy and beyond that it's apples and oranges and probably comes down to a matter of personal taste.

[Bob8]

The Mavs actually have a good team. People just discredit them to make Luka seem better. The Mavs actually won playoff games without Luka. No bad team can do that, rip away their best player, play a different style of basketball and win games. That team went to the western conference finals this year. Perhaps if they didn't play Luka ball they could have gone further. They certainly won playoff games without him. Perhaps if Luka played better defense and allowed other players more time with the ball in their hands they could of had a better team.

Please. Props to the supporting cast, but it speaks way more to how dysfunctional the Jazz are. Look at every playoff teams roster and come back and tell me the Mavs don't have the worst roster of any playoff team this year by far.

Give Luka the Pelicans supporting cast and the Warriors series is going either way.

Players love reading about themselves. They see all of this talk about how bad they are and how great Luka is. Luka fans don't understand this at all. They don't understand how they are feeding a negative team chemistry that these same players haven't experienced anywhere else or rarely have experienced because so few players are qualified to be positioned as a hero in a hero ball oriented organization. Keep downplaying playoff wins without Luka and watch how his hero ball teams continue to not win championships. Luka Ball doesn't even allow for a Scottie Pippen to cover him defensively. Scottie can't shoot well enough as exposed by his time in Houston playing off Hakeem and Barkley as a failed 3 and D rather than a championship point forward with Jordan.

Do you watch Mavs? They team chemistry looks great. I doubt they would play in WCF otherwise.

Players like even more, than read about themselves, being paid. And all those second rounders or even undrafted players are getting paid a lot. It looks to me that Luka's hero ball is not hurting them that much after all.

[ChartFiction]

So you're telling us that Mavs were in WCF because of Brunson, DFS, Bullock and Powell? Put Tatum instead of him and they're winning title?

The data is the data. Playoffs also shows Brunson leading the Mavs to 2-1 against Utah.

Everything is pointing to the same idea. And there's nothing Doncic does that is at a level of efficiency that exceeds what you get from parts. He gets you offensive volume from a single player. I'm not convinced, nor does history show, that's a good thing.

Don't embarrass yourself, 2:1 in first round is far away from WCF.

I have never heard a player being criticised for leading a team with very average roster to WCF. Finals should be minimum for Mavs this year?

Luka has haters from his first moments in Nba. Many vanished in this time. I guess few titles will be enough for you too, or maybe not, because his on/off won't be elite.

If Luka outputted at a much higher level than league average, I could disregard the on/off stats.

If he was a 60%+ TS scorer.
If he had a great turnover ratio.
If he was a defensive player.

But the fact is he isn't any of that. The on/off stats reflect exactly what you would preclude prior to having to see it. If the team has another player, i.e Brunson, that scores at around the same efficiency and turnover ratio, the on/off of Doncic will be neglible in comparison to his peers who do actually do those things. Which is exactly what is reflected. You can largely get back what you lose from Doncic by the sum of parts as long as your roster are around league average.

You take out Giannis and you're not getting that 63% TS scoring and defense from the sum of parts elsewhere. There is no sum of parts that substitute a player of Giannis stature. And on a lesser level, you cannot create a two-way player like Tatum from the sum of parts. Luka is just not a convincing player to me and all the stats I see line up and tell the same story.

[Bob8]

The data is the data. Playoffs also shows Brunson leading the Mavs to 2-1 against Utah.

Everything is pointing to the same idea. And there's nothing Doncic does that is at a level of efficiency that exceeds what you get from parts. He gets you offensive volume from a single player. I'm not convinced, nor does history show, that's a good thing.

Don't embarrass yourself, 2:1 in first round is far away from WCF.

I have never heard a player being criticised for leading a team with very average roster to WCF. Finals should be minimum for Mavs this year?

Luka has haters from his first moments in Nba. Many vanished in this time. I guess few titles will be enough for you too, or maybe not, because his on/off won't be elite.

If Luka outputted at a much higher level than league average, I could disregard the on/off stats.

If he was a 60%+ TS scorer.
If he had a great turnover ratio.
If he was a defensive player.

But the fact is he isn't any of that. The on/off stats reflect exactly what you would preclude prior to having to see it. If the team has another player, i.e Brunson, that scores at around the same efficiency and turnover ratio, the on/off of Doncic will be neglible and pale in comparison to his peers who do actually do those things. Which is exactly what is reflected. You can largely get back what you lose from Doncic by the sum of parts as long as your roster are around league average.

You take out Giannis and you're not getting that 63% TS scoring and defense from the sum of parts elsewhere. There is no sum of parts that substitute a player of Giannis stature. And on a lesser level, you cannot create a two-way player like Tatum from the sum of parts. Luka is just not a convincing player to me and all the stats I see line up and tell the same story.

Nobody who is scoring like Luka had TS% over 60. Not Kobe, not LeBron and not MJ.

And again, if Luka is so bad how Mavs were in WCF? Team of bunch of second rounders and undrafted players. Team without a C, rebounder and rim protector. Team without elite defenders. Something doesn't add up. You're talking like Mavs were underachieving, like they even didn't make playoffs. How is possible that so bad player with 40% usage had lead them in WCF?

Look at Mavs roster and tell me, where would they finish without Luka? Would those second rounders and undrafted players make play-in? I believe they did great job this year, because they do exactly what they can and is asked from them. Shoot and play solid D. But they are still only solid role players. Put Tatum instead of Luka and I doubt very much this's playoffs team.

[ChartFiction]

Don't embarrass yourself, 2:1 in first round is far away from WCF.

I have never heard a player being criticised for leading a team with very average roster to WCF. Finals should be minimum for Mavs this year?

Luka has haters from his first moments in Nba. Many vanished in this time. I guess few titles will be enough for you too, or maybe not, because his on/off won't be elite.

If Luka outputted at a much higher level than league average, I could disregard the on/off stats.

If he was a 60%+ TS scorer.
If he had a great turnover ratio.
If he was a defensive player.

But the fact is he isn't any of that. The on/off stats reflect exactly what you would preclude prior to having to see it. If the team has another player, i.e Brunson, that scores at around the same efficiency and turnover ratio, the on/off of Doncic will be neglible and pale in comparison to his peers who do actually do those things. Which is exactly what is reflected. You can largely get back what you lose from Doncic by the sum of parts as long as your roster are around league average.

You take out Giannis and you're not getting that 63% TS scoring and defense from the sum of parts elsewhere. There is no sum of parts that substitute a player of Giannis stature. And on a lesser level, you cannot create a two-way player like Tatum from the sum of parts. Luka is just not a convincing player to me and all the stats I see line up and tell the same story.

Nobody who is scoring like Luka had TS% over 60. Not Kobe, not LeBron and not MJ.

And again, if Luka is so bad how Mavs were in WCF? Team of bunch of second rounders and undrafted players. Team without a C, rebounder and rim protector. Team without elite defenders. Something don't add up. You're talking like Mavs were underachieving, like they even didn't make playoffs.

Look at Mavs roster and tell me, where would they finish without Luka? Would those second rounders and undrafted players make play-in? I believe thay did great job this year, because they do exactly what they can and is asked from them. Shoot and play solid D. But they are still only solid role players. Put Tatum instead of Luka and I doubt very much this's playoffs team.

All highly regarded scorers in today's age have TS% over 60.

Including 37 year old LeBron who's also shooting more 3s now and has a 62% TS.

The average in the league is now 57-58% TS in 2022.

[Bob8]

If Luka outputted at a much higher level than league average, I could disregard the on/off stats.

If he was a 60%+ TS scorer.
If he had a great turnover ratio.
If he was a defensive player.

But the fact is he isn't any of that. The on/off stats reflect exactly what you would preclude prior to having to see it. If the team has another player, i.e Brunson, that scores at around the same efficiency and turnover ratio, the on/off of Doncic will be neglible and pale in comparison to his peers who do actually do those things. Which is exactly what is reflected. You can largely get back what you lose from Doncic by the sum of parts as long as your roster are around league average.

You take out Giannis and you're not getting that 63% TS scoring and defense from the sum of parts elsewhere. There is no sum of parts that substitute a player of Giannis stature. And on a lesser level, you cannot create a two-way player like Tatum from the sum of parts. Luka is just not a convincing player to me and all the stats I see line up and tell the same story.

Nobody who is scoring like Luka had TS% over 60. Not Kobe, not LeBron and not MJ.

And again, if Luka is so bad how Mavs were in WCF? Team of bunch of second rounders and undrafted players. Team without a C, rebounder and rim protector. Team without elite defenders. Something don't add up. You're talking like Mavs were underachieving, like they even didn't make playoffs.

Look at Mavs roster and tell me, where would they finish without Luka? Would those second rounders and undrafted players make play-in? I believe thay did great job this year, because they do exactly what they can and is asked from them. Shoot and play solid D. But they are still only solid role players. Put Tatum instead of Luka and I doubt very much this's playoffs team.

All highly regarded scorers in today's age have TS% over 60.

Including 37 year old LeBron who's also shooting more 3s now and has a 62% TS.

The average in the league is now 57-58% TS in 2022.

LeBron played playoffs?

What is average for points in playoffs?

You might look at Giannis, Tatum, KD, Curry...TS%. Nobody has 60%.

[PierceFan4ever]

That's very interesting. I've never seen this metric before so thanks for sharing that. I'm curious why is his BPM so high then? Like I know they're different stats but high BPM usually correlates to high everything else. Eg. Jokic and Giannis have high BPM and their on/off stats here are great as well. What's going on with Luka and why isn't this stat aligned with his high BPM?

Because he's trying to convince people that On/Off will show who's better. And then when you click on Team Efficiency and Four Factors, you'll quickly realise why is that so.

Go and compare Celtics team, BPM, VORP, WS/48 and other stats. Even TS% is not that much different... Luka beats Tatum in almost all categories but when it comes to team bball, you'll see that Celtics have a much more versatile team than Mavs and that has nothing to do with Doncic.

This regular season, this is who finished with the better advanced stats.

BPM- Luka
VORP- Luka
EPM- Tatum
DPM/DARKO- Tatum
LEBRON- Tatum
RAPTOR- Tatum
RPM- Tatum
RAPM- Tatum

And if the Celtics have a much more versatile team, why did they play so much worse with Tatum off the court than the Mavs did with Luka off? Texas Chuck’s theory about the Mavs having a floor general when Luka is off the court makes sense, but the on/off gap is SIGNIFICANT. Tatum’s was +16.5 this season, Luka was -0.9.

Like I’ve said many times, I’m not even arguing that Tatum is better. But let’s not pretend Tatum didn’t have a significant gap with advanced stats this past season.

The fact that Tatum has a higher on/off gap than Jokic with his mediocre roster and everybody else in the league just shows how important he is to the Celtics. The Celtics are not good whenever Tatum is off the court. Oh, and the postseason still backs this up

Read on Twitter

[ChartFiction]

Nobody who is scoring like Luka had TS% over 60. Not Kobe, not LeBron and not MJ.

And again, if Luka is so bad how Mavs were in WCF? Team of bunch of second rounders and undrafted players. Team without a C, rebounder and rim protector. Team without elite defenders. Something don't add up. You're talking like Mavs were underachieving, like they even didn't make playoffs.

Look at Mavs roster and tell me, where would they finish without Luka? Would those second rounders and undrafted players make play-in? I believe thay did great job this year, because they do exactly what they can and is asked from them. Shoot and play solid D. But they are still only solid role players. Put Tatum instead of Luka and I doubt very much this's playoffs team.

All highly regarded scorers in today's age have TS% over 60.

Including 37 year old LeBron who's also shooting more 3s now and has a 62% TS.

The average in the league is now 57-58% TS in 2022.

LeBron played playoffs?

What is average for points in playoffs?

Stats aren't suppose to go with recency bias. It's easy to go against my opinion now by leaning on a recent win against Phoenix, a team that looked like it sank on it's own with a 37 year old leader.

I expect this to be probably the worst time for me to argue my opinion. It'll probably be easier every year henceforth. I just feel like arguing it now because I think it's very clear and will be the mainstream opinion within a few years.

[pingpongrac]

Well outside of the names it looks like you forced in there at the end (DeRozan, Butler, Ja), most of the one's that you state are clearly better are arguable.

I'd love to hear reasoning as to why Tatum is a better offensive player than any of Jokic, Luka, KD, Steph, Trae, LeBron, Giannis or Embiid. The only ones from that list that are remotely debatable are Trae (because he's small) and LeBron (because he's nearing 40), but the rest are very clearly better on the offensive end.

Best I remember Tatum averaged more points during the playoffs than Durant while having him clamped, LeBron simply isn't the player he was, Embiid flamed out as usual, and Trae Young was awful against the Heat. Sounds plenty arguable to me.

I guess if you're basing opinions off of a single playoff series (or lack thereof in LeBron's case because his team sucked) where those players were injured and/or playing against better teams there is an argument to be made. In reality, those players were noticeably better than Tatum on the offensive end over the course of the season and most non-Celtics fans would agree that Tatum just isn't quite as complete of an offensive player.

Tatum: 27 PPG on 58 TS% with a 1.5 AST/TO ratio, +4.4 O-EPM, +4.8 O-RAPTOR

Jokic: 27 PPG on 66 TS% with a 2.1 AST/TO ratio, +7.4 O-EPM, +8.9 O-RAPTOR

Luka: 28 PPG on 57 TS% with a 1.9 AST/TO ratio, +4.6 O-EPM, +5.7 O-RAPTOR

Durant: 30 PPG on 63 TS% with a 1.8 AST/TO ratio, +5.2 O-EPM, +5.0 O-RAPTOR

Steph: 26 PPG on 60 TS% with a 2.0 AST/TO ratio, +5.4 O-EPM, +5.6 O-RAPTOR

Trae: 28 PPG on 60 TS% with a 2.4 AST/TO ratio, +6.5 O-EPM, +7.6 O-RAPTOR

LeBron: 30 PPG on 62 TS% with a 1.8 AST/TO ratio, +5.4 O-EPM, +4.6 O-RAPTOR

Giannis: 30 PPG on 63 TS% with a 1.8 AST/TO ratio, +6.2 O-EPM, +5.7 O-RAPTOR

Embiid: 31 PPG on 62 TS% with a 1.3 AST/TO ratio, +5.9 O-EPM, +4.2 O-RAPTOR

Of those players, Tatum was the 2nd lowest scorer on the 2nd lowest efficiency with the 2nd worst AST/TO ratio while also having the least impact on the offensive end. Depending on what you think of Ja/Booker/Mitchell/DeRozan/Butler, Tatum probably maxes out as the 9th or 10th best offensive player in the league...which isn't that far off from what I initially said.

Tatum is a star and a very good offensive player, but he isn't quite elite yet. He's not enough of a consistent scorer like Durant/Giannis/Embiid and he can't orchestrate an entire offence like Jokic/Luka/LeBron/Trae. I don't know why you made such a big deal with me saying there are nearly a dozen better offensive players when numerous offensive stats and metrics grade Tatum out as the ~10th best offensive player. He just doesn't have the full package on the offensive end yet, but to be fair his playmaking has really improved over the 24 months and that's been the biggest him holding him back from making the leap from solid #1 to very good #1. I feel like the series against the Raptors in the bubble forced him to look for his teammates more and he has been much better since then.

[CraftylikeaFox]

The Mavs actually have a good team. People just discredit them to make Luka seem better. The Mavs actually won playoff games without Luka. No bad team can do that, rip away their best player, play a different style of basketball and win games. That team went to the western conference finals this year. Perhaps if they didn't play Luka ball they could have gone further. They certainly won playoff games without him. Perhaps if Luka played better defense and allowed other players more time with the ball in their hands they could of had a better team.

Please. Props to the supporting cast, but it speaks way more to how dysfunctional the Jazz are. Look at every playoff teams roster and come back and tell me the Mavs don't have the worst roster of any playoff team this year by far.

Give Luka the Pelicans supporting cast and the Warriors series is going either way.

Players love reading about themselves. They see all of this talk about how bad they are and how great Luka is. Luka fans don't understand this at all. They don't understand how they are feeding a negative team chemistry that these same players haven't experienced anywhere else or rarely have experienced because so few players are qualified to be positioned as a hero in a hero ball oriented organization. Keep downplaying playoff wins without Luka and watch how his hero ball teams continue to not win championships. Luka Ball doesn't even allow for a Scottie Pippen to cover him defensively. Scottie can't shoot well enough as exposed by his time in Houston playing off Hakeem and Barkley as a failed 3 and D rather than a championship point forward with Jordan.

You completely glossed over my last point. What playoff team, in your opinion, has a worse top to bottom roster, taking away each teams best player, than the Mavs? The ONLY team is the Nuggets and they're missing their second and third best player.

The Mavs beat the Suns. The Suns were looked at by many as the title favorite going into the playoffs. That achievement alone trumps any example you can possibly give of Luka's game being a net negative to the teams overall performance.

I will gladly admit to any of Luka's shortcomings once I see him play with another all star for an entire season.

Calling him out for not doing better with what he has had so far into his career is just a clown take.

[SelfishPlayer]

Please. Props to the supporting cast, but it speaks way more to how dysfunctional the Jazz are. Look at every playoff teams roster and come back and tell me the Mavs don't have the worst roster of any playoff team this year by far.

Give Luka the Pelicans supporting cast and the Warriors series is going either way.

Players love reading about themselves. They see all of this talk about how bad they are and how great Luka is. Luka fans don't understand this at all. They don't understand how they are feeding a negative team chemistry that these same players haven't experienced anywhere else or rarely have experienced because so few players are qualified to be positioned as a hero in a hero ball oriented organization. Keep downplaying playoff wins without Luka and watch how his hero ball teams continue to not win championships. Luka Ball doesn't even allow for a Scottie Pippen to cover him defensively. Scottie can't shoot well enough as exposed by his time in Houston playing off Hakeem and Barkley as a failed 3 and D rather than a championship point forward with Jordan.

You completely glossed over my last point. What playoff team, in your opinion, has a worse top to bottom roster, taking away each teams best player, than the Mavs? The ONLY team is the Nuggets and they're missing their second and third best player.

The Mavs beat the Suns. The Suns were looked at by many as the title favorite going into the playoffs. That achievement alone trumps any example you can possibly give of Luka's game being a net negative to the teams overall performance.

I will gladly admit to any of Luka's shortcomings once I see him play with another all star for an entire season.

Calling him out for not doing better with what he has had so far into his career is just a clown take.

Great Luka beat an old CP3 and Booker a player he is clearly better than. History will not care. Luka is a great one right? Well he will be judged by championships. I will begin judging him by not taking a step back. He can't take a step back next season imo.

[rapstarter]

I don't think it's very controversial to say Tatum's supporting cast is MUCH better than Luka's in almost every way. If the Mavs offered a swap between the supporting casts, Celtics fans would just laugh at them. Tatum's a superior defender to Luka, but he also plays next to some great, versatile defenders who can help. Mavs D is pretty good too, but any team that rotates between Powell and Kleber at the 5 will struggle in many matchups.

[Wagonband]

Tatum is great but he is not better than Luka, common.

You can't just look at these things in a vacuum. Look at the type of defensive schemes the opponents are making against Luka. They are playing box in 1 against him. They basically often double him in a pnr and force a pass to a wide open opponent rather than allow him to do anything. All 5 people always watch what Luka is doing and pack the paint leaving the Dallas shooters wide open. Look at the amount of wide open 3s they were able to shoot in the playoffs. Every game it was 5x more than the opponents. Tatum was never guarded like that and he doesn't generate that kind of offence for his team.

And as i've said before, defence doesn't matter as much as offence. It simply doesn't. If it did, Thybulle would earn a max contract yet he is barely in the league.

Also people saying that you have to build a different roster around Luka, while you can put whoever you want around Tatum... Ehm, no? The reason the Dallas roster is built like this is because they have terrible contracts and few assets, so the only way to be competitive is to have a team built like this. I mean the Dallas 2 "centers" were outrebounded by Curry in the GSW series.

And stop saying how they played well without Luka in the playoffs. Last 2 years they had a meltdown every time Luka sat down vs the Clippers, which forced Luka to play 40+ minutes all the time which tired him in the end of games, which lead to the losses.

This year they played vs the Jazz, but the Jazz put pathetic efforts in those games, and team in the West would be competitive with them the way they played.

[Miami_Lux]

I don't think it's very controversial to say Tatum's supporting cast is MUCH better than Luka's in almost every way. If the Mavs offered a swap between the supporting casts, Celtics fans would just laugh at them. Tatum's a superior defender to Luka, but he also plays next to some great, versatile defenders who can help. Mavs D is pretty good too, but any team that rotates between Powell and Kleber at the 5 will struggle in many matchups.

I think this sums it up pretty well. Although I m not a fan of hypothetical scenarios but if you switched Luka with Tatum there would be no doubt in my mind that the Celtics would win the championship and the Mavs would maybe get out of the first round. Or what do you think would happen if Luka had Brown, Smart, and Horford on his team? You wouldn't t even need to watch the finals to know the outcome.

I get that Celtics fans go with their guy Tatum and I would probably do the same if he was on my team. But if you were just asking non Celtics and Mavs fan the poll result would probably 90-10 in favor of Luka.