Was Kobe's Greatness an example of "Stats Don't Tell the Whole Story"?

[Bornstellar]

Also good to see my guy LAL1947 trying to discredit Tim Duncan in yet another thread

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Kobe has more longevity on his side at the highest level of competition.

Dirk is a top 15/top 20 player in my book, and I have him ahead of guys like Malone, Barkley, Garnett and Durant.

But he really only has three deep playoff runs on his resume, and two Finals appearances. That's why I put Kobe a few spots ahead of him.

It's not a big deal for me to have Kobe over Dirk, I would probably have him ahead as well.
But it stands to me that they are close enough to put them in the same tier (together with Garnett, among their contemporaries. Timmeh and Shaq one tier above).
Moreover, how much of the reason why we saw Kobe going deep more often is due to him every vastly superior teams to the ones Dirk had (who still was performing great when he didn't win, with the exception of 2005 and 2007)? It's not like we saw Kobe repeatedly lead to success subpar teams or we didn't see Dirk perform at the highest level as well.

[LAL1947]

I think his stats do tell the story. I think Kobe is one of the more overrated players because of his Jordan-esque style, his "Mamba Mentality," and the media feeding into the paradigm of him being the most clutch player ever (demonstrably untrue).

Not trying to disrespect Kobe. He is by all means an ATG and a top 15 player ever. But the fact that so many casuals try to put him in the top 5 or GOAT conversations is all the proof you need. He was a great player but he was never as great as the real GOATs, and him missing the playoffs in his prime and the unremarkable end to his career (last playoff game in 2012?) makes me firmly believe the stats in fact do tell the story

Kobe isn't a GOAT, it's only Kobe-stans who say that. There is only one real GOAT, Jordan... maybe two, if you consider all of Wilt's records that still stand... and perhaps three, if we have to include all of Lebrons stats too. Normal people who are able to remove their bias, like myself ( ), have Kobe in the Top 5-10 and ahead of Tim Duncan. Hakeem could literally do everything better than Duncan, anyone who watched both play live could see that. So I'm not sure how Duncan has passed Hakeem up too.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Kobe isn't a GOAT, it's only Kobe-stans who say that. There is only one real GOAT, Jordan... maybe two, if you consider all of Wilt's records that still stand... and maybe three, if we have to include all of Lebrons stats too. Normal people who are able to remove their bias, like myself ( ), have Kobe in the Top 5-10 and ahead of Tim Duncan. Hakeem could literally do everything better than Duncan, so I'm not sure how Duncan has passed him up either.

Hakeem was not clos to be the passer Timmeh was and he didn't have the same touch around the basket, as Timmeh was almost Jokic-like.
Still, not a big deal to have Hakeem over Timmeh, in the same tier for me.
But Hakeem in a certain sense was the Kobe of centers.

[Chanel Bomber]

Kobe has more longevity on his side at the highest level of competition.

Dirk is a top 15/top 20 player in my book, and I have him ahead of guys like Malone, Barkley, Garnett and Durant.

But he really only has three deep playoff runs on his resume, and two Finals appearances. That's why I put Kobe a few spots ahead of him.

It's not a big deal for me to have Kobe over Dirk, I would probably have him ahead as well.
But it stands to me that they are close enough to put them in the same tier (together with Garnett, among their contemporaries. Timmeh and Shaq one tier above).
Moreover, how much of the reason why we saw Kobe going deep more often is due to him every vastly superior teams to the ones Dirk had (who still was performing great when he didn't win, with the exception of 2005 and 2007)? It's not like we saw Kobe repeatedly lead to success subpar teams or we didn't see Dirk perform at the highest level as well.

That's a fair point, but for a period of time Dirk had better teams than Kobe did (in the mid-2000s), and I believe the Lakers were the first or second seed in the East when Bynum got hurt in 2008, before they traded for Gasol. Kobe played a few years with guys like Luke Walton, Smush Parker and Kwame Brown. The Mavericks lacked that second star but they always had depth.

For me Garnett is quite clearly a tier below Kobe and Dirk.

I think Kobe's slightly below Shaq and Duncan, slightly above Dirk, and well above KG.

It does bother how poorly Kobe played in game 7 of the 2010 Finals. I certainly hold that against him.

[LAL1947]

Kobe isn't a GOAT, it's only Kobe-stans who say that. There is only one real GOAT, Jordan... maybe two, if you consider all of Wilt's records that still stand... and maybe three, if we have to include all of Lebrons stats too. Normal people who are able to remove their bias, like myself ( ), have Kobe in the Top 5-10 and ahead of Tim Duncan. Hakeem could literally do everything better than Duncan, so I'm not sure how Duncan has passed him up either.

Hakeem was not clos to be the passer Timmeh was and he didn't have the same touch, as Timmeh was almost Jokic-like.
Still, not a big deal to have Hakeem over Timmeh, in the same tier for me.

Timmy was almost Jokic-like? Hahaha, that's funny... and is it any wonder that Timmy gets over-rated on these boards so much when you have people thinking that he is Jokic-like? What's next? You gonna say his help-defense was Giannis-like? And his scoring was Kareem-like, despite having 12,000 less RS points over the same number of years?

[-Sammy-]

I think his stats do tell the story. I think Kobe is one of the more overrated players because of his Jordan-esque style, his "Mamba Mentality," and the media feeding into the paradigm of him being the most clutch player ever (demonstrably untrue).

Not trying to disrespect Kobe. He is by all means an ATG and a top 15 player ever. But the fact that so many casuals try to put him in the top 5 or GOAT conversations is all the proof you need. He was a great player but he was never as great as the real GOATs, and him missing the playoffs in his prime and the unremarkable end to his career (last playoff game in 2012?) makes me firmly believe the stats in fact do tell the story

Kobe isn't a GOAT, it's only Kobe-stans who say that. There is only one real GOAT, Jordan... maybe two, if you consider all of Wilt's records that still stand... and maybe three, if we have to include all of Lebrons stats too. Normal people who are able to remove their bias, like myself ( ), have Kobe in the Top 5-10 and ahead of Tim Duncan. Hakeem could literally do everything better than Duncan, so I'm not sure how Duncan has passed him up either.

Considering that most people (at least in all the discussions I've tracked with) rank Duncan ahead of Kobe, those who don't are by definition not 'normal people.'

We all bring some bias to these conversations. You'll have a hard time convincing many folks that you, as a Lakers and Kobe fan, have successfully removed all bias from your evaluations (as will I, as a Spurs/Duncan guy). It's cool; I think we all know nobody's coming at this from a neutral place. Let's just own it and have fun hammering it out!

[Statlanta]

Kobe’s greatness is playing against an NBA Finalist opponent his first 7 years.

You’d be better too if you faced LeBron every year during his Conference Finals streak.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Kobe has more longevity on his side at the highest level of competition.

Dirk is a top 15/top 20 player in my book, and I have him ahead of guys like Malone, Barkley, Garnett and Durant.

But he really only has three deep playoff runs on his resume, and two Finals appearances. That's why I put Kobe a few spots ahead of him.

It's not a big deal for me to have Kobe over Dirk, I would probably have him ahead as well.
But it stands to me that they are close enough to put them in the same tier (together with Garnett, among their contemporaries. Timmeh and Shaq one tier above).
Moreover, how much of the reason why we saw Kobe going deep more often is due to him every vastly superior teams to the ones Dirk had (who still was performing great when he didn't win, with the exception of 2005 and 2007)? It's not like we saw Kobe repeatedly lead to success subpar teams or we didn't see Dirk perform at the highest level as well.

That's a fair point, but for a period of time Dirk had better teams than Kobe did (in the mid-2000s), and I believe the Lakers were the first or second seed in the East when Bynum got hurt in 2008, before they traded for Gasol. Kobe played a few years with guys like Luke Walton, Smush Parker and Kwame Brown. The Mavericks lacked that second star but they always had depth.

For me Garnett is quite clearly a tier below Kobe and Dirk.

I think Kobe's slightly below Shaq and Duncan, slightly above Dirk, and well above KG.

It does bother how poorly Kobe played in game 7 of the 2010 Finals. I certainly hold that against him.

Dirk had better teams but not as good as the teams Kobe had when he went to the finals.
I think all seven finals teams Kobe had were better than the best Dirk ever had (minus the two of them, of course).

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Kobe isn't a GOAT, it's only Kobe-stans who say that. There is only one real GOAT, Jordan... maybe two, if you consider all of Wilt's records that still stand... and maybe three, if we have to include all of Lebrons stats too. Normal people who are able to remove their bias, like myself ( ), have Kobe in the Top 5-10 and ahead of Tim Duncan. Hakeem could literally do everything better than Duncan, so I'm not sure how Duncan has passed him up either.

Hakeem was not clos to be the passer Timmeh was and he didn't have the same touch, as Timmeh was almost Jokic-like.
Still, not a big deal to have Hakeem over Timmeh, in the same tier for me.

Timmy was almost Jokic-like? Hahaha, that's funny... and is it any wonder that Timmy gets over-rated on these boards so much when you have people thinking that he is Jokic-like? What's next? You gonna say his help-defense was Giannis-like? And that his scoring was Kareem-like, despite having 12,000 less points over the same number of years played?

I meant just in terms of touch, probably I was not clear.
But Duncan was at least as good as Giannis as a help defender, though, and he kept being amazing even when he lost most of his mobility.

[cupcakesnake]

to be honest, they do tell the whole story, you just have to look very deep into the stats. Kobe scored in every type of action and from every spot on the floor. Hes the only guy that does. That helped him a lot in the playoffs because he could search for the enemy weakness and have lots of options. Whereas a guy like harden will lose because hes playing against the best pnr defense in the world, or a guy like wade will lose because the other team puts a big guys on the floor and scores well so he cant drive the lane or attack in transition, when in reality those teams had flaws kobe could have exploited.

you saw this when kobe played for dantoni and he kinda took some of the variety out of kobes game and how efficent he became despite not being quite as good as he once was. he had a top 3 effency that year, showing that he could do what todays stars do better than them probably if he really chose to.

All you're really saying is that Kobe's style had better resilience. Which is true to some extent but Kobe doesn't stand out as some special playoff performer compared to other greats. You're setting the bar really really low at Harden. I think Kobe is a lot better than Harden for the reason your describing.

The D'Antoni example isn't great because:
A) we're talking about 46 games of Kobe/D'Antoni near the end of Kobe's career.
B) there were lots of other factors there, like trying to mesh Kobe, Dwight, Nash, Gasol into something workable.
C) the Lakers, including Kobe, were sooooo injured at this point in time.
I'm not sure there's useful data here to takeaway a lot about Kobe.

I'm sure OP isn't asking us about why Kobe is better than Harden. For Kobe it's only about other top 10-20 all-time players that you really have to debate Kobe's greatness. Unless you're really high on Harden or Wade, I think it's fairly established consensus that Kobe was a better basketball player (even if some people will argue for Wade or Harden's absolute prime vs. prime)

I think it is great because despite all that in 13 the guy was over the hill and had one of his most efficent RS, just off putting him in more pnr/dho. what I mean to say is that if you ran the 4 out pnr/dho spam offense that we do now, or that guys play in now, kobe would have put up absurd offensive numbers. nothing to do with mindset or anything like that, just strictly x's and o's wise. he shot a career high from 2 and efg, which really stands out. like if he had dantoni in those years he was losing and putting up stupid numbers, i wonder how much more efficently he could have gotten them.

All of these is very theoretical, but I don't agree at all. While I think Kobe definitely could have been utilized in all kinds of ways and still had plenty of success, I think the triangle system was perfect for him because it maximized his elite blend of on-ball and off-ball scoring. If you put Kobe in a heliocentric role, you most/all of his cutting game. Some of Kobe's most efficient offense came off baseline cuts into pindowns.

Kobe's gunner mentality I think would be more problematic if you made him your pick & roll guard full time. While he was a wonderfully gifted passer, he had an overwhelming tendency to hunt shots and a courageous willingness to attempt difficult shots. Part of what made Kobe great was his fearlessness, but there was a downside to that in that he took plenty of shots that maybe he should have been just a tad more shy about. If you turn your entire offense into the Kobe show, I dont think it's going to generate all-time offense. The best Lakers offenses found a balance between Kobe incredible shot making, and moving him off ball and putting him in actions that opened up greater team offense.

I get your D'Antoni theory, and it would certainly have been interesting to see it play out over a larger sample on a more functional team. But I'm higher on the x's and o's of how Kobe was utilized by Phil Jackson. My imagination of your scenario has Kobe becoming less efficient, not more, and I'm not really moved on that by such a small and weird sample.

[cupcakesnake]

Also good to see my guy LAL1947 trying to discredit Tim Duncan in yet another thread

The man has a mission and nothing can stop this man from fulfilling his mission. Mamba mentality.

[LAL1947]

Hakeem was not clos to be the passer Timmeh was and he didn't have the same touch, as Timmeh was almost Jokic-like.
Still, not a big deal to have Hakeem over Timmeh, in the same tier for me.

Timmy was almost Jokic-like? Hahaha, that's funny... and is it any wonder that Timmy gets over-rated on these boards so much when you have people thinking that he is Jokic-like? What's next? You gonna say his help-defense was Giannis-like? And that his scoring was Kareem-like, despite having 12,000 less points over the same number of years played?

I meant just in terms of touch, probably I was not clear.
But Duncan was at least as good as Giannis as a help defender, though, and he kept being amazing even when he lost most of his mobility.

Oh my... lol. I don't really know how to respond to this except to say what I said before... is it any wonder that Timmy get so over-rated on these boards when people think he was Jokic-like in his passing and Giannis-like in providing help-defense. Sorry, not trying to be rude. I'm just lost for words.

[dhsilv2]

I think his stats do tell the story. I think Kobe is one of the more overrated players because of his Jordan-esque style, his "Mamba Mentality," and the media feeding into the paradigm of him being the most clutch player ever (demonstrably untrue).

Not trying to disrespect Kobe. He is by all means an ATG and a top 15 player ever. But the fact that so many casuals try to put him in the top 5 or GOAT conversations is all the proof you need. He was a great player but he was never as great as the real GOATs, and him missing the playoffs in his prime and the unremarkable end to his career (last playoff game in 2012?) makes me firmly believe the stats in fact do tell the story

Kobe isn't a GOAT, it's only Kobe-stans who say that. There is only one real GOAT, Jordan... maybe two, if you consider all of Wilt's records that still stand... and maybe three, if we have to include all of Lebrons stats too. Normal people who are able to remove their bias, like myself ( ), have Kobe in the Top 5-10 and ahead of Tim Duncan. Hakeem could literally do everything better than Duncan, anyone who watched both play live could see that. So I'm not sure how Duncan has passed Hakeem up too.

Duncan was a better rebounder and far and away a superior passer, and we're not talking about it being close! Duncan was also better moving off ball, setting screens, and maintained his zone on defense better.

[dhsilv2]

Kobe has more longevity on his side at the highest level of competition.

Dirk is a top 15/top 20 player in my book, and I have him ahead of guys like Malone, Barkley, Garnett and Durant.

But he really only has three deep playoff runs on his resume, and two Finals appearances. That's why I put Kobe a few spots ahead of him.

It's not a big deal for me to have Kobe over Dirk, I would probably have him ahead as well.
But it stands to me that they are close enough to put them in the same tier (together with Garnett, among their contemporaries. Timmeh and Shaq one tier above).
Moreover, how much of the reason why we saw Kobe going deep more often is due to him every vastly superior teams to the ones Dirk had (who still was performing great when he didn't win, with the exception of 2005 and 2007)? It's not like we saw Kobe repeatedly lead to success subpar teams or we didn't see Dirk perform at the highest level as well.

That's a fair point, but for a period of time Dirk had better teams than Kobe did (in the mid-2000s), and I believe the Lakers were the first or second seed in the East when Bynum got hurt in 2008, before they traded for Gasol. Kobe played a few years with guys like Luke Walton, Smush Parker and Kwame Brown. The Mavericks lacked that second star but they always had depth.

For me Garnett is quite clearly a tier below Kobe and Dirk.

I think Kobe's slightly below Shaq and Duncan, slightly above Dirk, and well above KG.

It does bother how poorly Kobe played in game 7 of the 2010 Finals. I certainly hold that against him.

KG below Dirk and Kobe??? What? KG and Duncan is a real debate. KG is at worst on the same tier as dirk and kobe, but by any statistical analysis he should be a tier above.

[LAL1947]

Also good to see my guy LAL1947 trying to discredit Tim Duncan in yet another thread

The man has a mission and nothing can stop this man from fulfilling his mission. Mamba mentality.

I'm gonna blame Chuck and 70sFan for creating this super-Timmy-on-speed narrative.

It's like those foreign films on IMDB that get multiple 10-star ratings from their fellow countrymen to support it, and which need 1-star ratings to be brought back to normal.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Timmy was almost Jokic-like? Hahaha, that's funny... and is it any wonder that Timmy gets over-rated on these boards so much when you have people thinking that he is Jokic-like? What's next? You gonna say his help-defense was Giannis-like? And that his scoring was Kareem-like, despite having 12,000 less points over the same number of years played?

I meant just in terms of touch, probably I was not clear.
But Duncan was at least as good as Giannis as a help defender, though, and he kept being amazing even when he lost most of his mobility.

Oh my... lol. I don't really know how to respond to this except to say what I said before... is it any wonder that Timmy get so over-rated on these boards when people think he was Jokic-like in his passing and Giannis-like in providing help-defense. Sorry, not trying to be rude. I'm just lost for words.

sounds pretty clear that you're not reading or you're just trolling.
whatever the case, you're on your own.

[Raps in 4]

His efficiency was okay for his era. And he was able to score at will under pressure. He's definitely overrated by most people by virtue of having 5 rings and being a Laker, but he was still an ATG (top-15 all-time).

[Chanel Bomber]

It's not a big deal for me to have Kobe over Dirk, I would probably have him ahead as well.
But it stands to me that they are close enough to put them in the same tier (together with Garnett, among their contemporaries. Timmeh and Shaq one tier above).
Moreover, how much of the reason why we saw Kobe going deep more often is due to him every vastly superior teams to the ones Dirk had (who still was performing great when he didn't win, with the exception of 2005 and 2007)? It's not like we saw Kobe repeatedly lead to success subpar teams or we didn't see Dirk perform at the highest level as well.

That's a fair point, but for a period of time Dirk had better teams than Kobe did (in the mid-2000s), and I believe the Lakers were the first or second seed in the East when Bynum got hurt in 2008, before they traded for Gasol. Kobe played a few years with guys like Luke Walton, Smush Parker and Kwame Brown. The Mavericks lacked that second star but they always had depth.

For me Garnett is quite clearly a tier below Kobe and Dirk.

I think Kobe's slightly below Shaq and Duncan, slightly above Dirk, and well above KG.

It does bother how poorly Kobe played in game 7 of the 2010 Finals. I certainly hold that against him.

KG below Dirk and Kobe??? What? KG and Duncan is a real debate. KG is at worst on the same tier as dirk and kobe, but by any statistical analysis he should be a tier above.

I think we've already had that debate before.

I don't think KG could carry a team offensively. He was not an engine, and I value this profile more than any other in terms of building a championship team.

KG was always better suited as a 2nd option on offense.

I personally have him firmly below Duncan, Kobe and Dirk.

[LAL1947]

I meant just in terms of touch, probably I was not clear.
But Duncan was at least as good as Giannis as a help defender, though, and he kept being amazing even when he lost most of his mobility.

Oh my... lol. I don't really know how to respond to this except to say what I said before... is it any wonder that Timmy get so over-rated on these boards when people think he was Jokic-like in his passing and Giannis-like in providing help-defense. Sorry, not trying to be rude. I'm just lost for words.

sounds pretty clear that you're not reading or you're just trolling.
whatever the case, you're on your own.

What do you want me to say? You're over-rating Duncan and then getting mad at me.

Anyway, when did Duncan lose his mobility exactly? I'm only asking since you might remember it better than I do. I think it was somewhere between 2003-05... cos I remember Amar'e Stoudamire pretty much had his way with Duncan for a while until his knees gave out. The Spurs had a better overall team than the Suns until 2006-07, so they still usually won though. Manu and Parker were always bailing him out.

More importantly, if Stat was scoring on Timmy like that, mano-a-mano... what would Giannis score, being more athletic?

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