Jimmy Butler vs Kevin McHale

Matt15 · Post #1 » by **Matt15** » Wed Jun 1, 2022 8:12 pm

Who peaked higher?

rate_ · Post #2 » by **rate_** » Wed Jun 1, 2022 8:38 pm

Jimmy for sure. He was on another level this season:

Jimmy blows him out in advanced metrics. Much better playmaker and defender, better volume scorer with above league average scoring efficiency. Jimmy has complete attributes to his game that can lead a team as a true #1 option than McHale

70sFan · Post #3 » by **70sFan** » Wed Jun 1, 2022 8:42 pm

That's interesting comparison. We haven't seen peak McHale as the first option, but we have seen him in such role in 1989 with much worse team than Butler. Ideally, neither would be your first option though and I think I prefer what McHale brings to the table a little bit more.

Still, interesting comparison.

GSP · Post #4 » by **GSP** » Wed Jun 1, 2022 9:19 pm

Peak Jimmy is alot better TBH even extended prime hes better too

70sFan · Post #5 » by **70sFan** » Wed Jun 1, 2022 9:24 pm

It started, we'll now see a lot of people overrating Butler. Sad because Iike him a lot.

Colbinii · Post #6 » by **Colbinii** » Wed Jun 1, 2022 9:29 pm

rate_ wrote:Jimmy for sure. He was on another level this season:

Jimmy blows him out in advanced metrics. Much better playmaker and defender, better volume scorer with above league average scoring efficiency. Jimmy has complete attributes to his game that can lead a team as a true #1 option than McHale

Do you take Jimmy over 2006 Wade? His PER, WS and BPM all beat Wade like they do McHale.

Cricket23 · Post #7 » by **Cricket23** » Wed Jun 1, 2022 9:30 pm

Personally I think it's McHale easy.

Jaivl · Post #8 » by **Jaivl** » Wed Jun 1, 2022 10:16 pm

Colbinii wrote:
rate_ wrote:Jimmy for sure. He was on another level this season:

Jimmy blows him out in advanced metrics. Much better playmaker and defender, better volume scorer with above league average scoring efficiency. Jimmy has complete attributes to his game that can lead a team as a true #1 option than McHale

Do you take Jimmy over 2006 Wade? His PER, WS and BPM all beat Wade like they do McHale.

Peak Butler > Peak Shaq. 12 BPM go brrrrrrrrr.

MyUniBroDavis · Post #9 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Wed Jun 1, 2022 10:29 pm

70sFan wrote:It started, we'll now see a lot of people overrating Butler. Sad because Iike him a lot.

Butler is in this weird area where he was probably the best player of the playoffs when healthy, although playoff jimmy has a sample of this year and the 2020 finals since before that he wasn’t at that level

He was averaging 30-7-6 on 63.5TS on a 7% turnover ratio prior to the knee injury, so I think a lot of people have a assumption that that’s just playoff jimmy

I don’t know if I’m 100% on board with that, his RS effeciency has seen an uptick in Miami altho he sucked last years playoffs, maybe he just got hot

If your assuming he’s like that in the playoffs in general which a lot of people are (like a 30-7-6 on uber high effeciency) then I don’t think he’s overhyped (or his postseason at least) since healthy jimmy was probably at a raptors Kawhi level and the best playoff performer so far

I like butler a lot too but I’d prolly wanna see one more time of him doing this before crowning him, but it’s still crazy a team picked Tobias Harris over him

prolific passer · Post #10 » by **prolific passer** » Wed Jun 1, 2022 10:31 pm

Kids look underneath their beds for the boogeyman. The boogeyman looks under his bed for Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris looks under his bed for Jimmy Butler.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #11 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Wed Jun 1, 2022 10:47 pm

rate_ wrote:Jimmy for sure. He was on another level this season:

Jimmy blows him out in advanced metrics. Much better playmaker and defender, better volume scorer with above league average scoring efficiency. Jimmy has complete attributes to his game that can lead a team as a true #1 option than McHale

Why are you listing 88 for McHale here? 87 was easily his peak as a player. Having said that, I think there's arguments for both though I might like the idea of having Jimmy as my #1 guy better in the playoffs. He pretty much proved what he could do this year and in 2020.

prolific passer · Post #12 » by **prolific passer** » Wed Jun 1, 2022 11:01 pm

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
rate_ wrote:Jimmy for sure. He was on another level this season:

Jimmy blows him out in advanced metrics. Much better playmaker and defender, better volume scorer with above league average scoring efficiency. Jimmy has complete attributes to his game that can lead a team as a true #1 option than McHale

Why are you listing 88 for McHale here? 87 was easily his peak as a player. Having said that, I think there's arguments for both though I might like the idea of having Jimmy as my #1 guy better in the playoffs. He pretty much proved what he could do this year and in 2020.

What about 2021?

HeartBreakKid · Post #13 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Thu Jun 2, 2022 4:48 am

rate_ wrote:Jimmy for sure. He was on another level this season:

Jimmy blows him out in advanced metrics. Much better playmaker and defender, better volume scorer with above league average scoring efficiency. Jimmy has complete attributes to his game that can lead a team as a true #1 option than McHale

it doesnt really look like he blows him out the water at all, if anything McHale has better RS stats.

Jimmy has higher VORP/BPM yeah, doesnt really mean anything in terms of goodness though.

Better defender than McHale? Not sure about that one scoob. Maybe he is but I dont think its particularly likely.

That's not to mention McHale doesn't just have one season like this. Jimmy Butler's other post seasons are nothing like that, McHale's stats stand up better to large sample sizes, Butler last year played like a Chinese league player in the post season.

There is more evidence to suggest McHale was better than Butler, unless by peak we are just going crazy with it and saying Butler's 20 game sample size from one post season is the only relevant piece of information between these two players full careers.

Jimmy Butler is a perennial 20 ppg scorer which is the same as McHale. Saying hes a better volume scorer when his efficiency isn't even close to McHales is just...shallow. I get the argument "PEAK MEANS ONE SEASON" (it doesn't mean that), but this is a little far in the direction. Jimmy Butler is not a perennial 30 point guy, that isn't his game. He does not have any massive adavantge over McHale as a scorer and is almost certainly a worse one.

I think the problem with people who go over board with peak = one season is that they ignore like the huge amounts of data surrounding that one season or even their careers. I do not think peak necessarily means best season, it means whos the actual better player on the basketball court. Given that criteria, I really do not get how Jimmy Butler is even a "volume" scorer at all.

Jimmy doesn't score a lot of points, doesn't have a play style that is conducive to doing so, doesn't want to and doesn't think it's the best way to play. So again, saying he's a better volume scorer than someone who scores around the same amount but on better efficiency due to him having a single 27 PPG type of run just seems off.

xb3at band1tx · Post #14 » by **xb3at band1tx** » Thu Jun 2, 2022 4:56 am

I love Jimmy but McHale just seemed more consistent.

prolific passer · Post #15 » by **prolific passer** » Thu Jun 2, 2022 4:57 am

Really hard to compare a big to a perimeter player.

SNPA · Post #16 » by **SNPA** » Thu Jun 2, 2022 5:45 am

Jaivl wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
rate_ wrote:Jimmy for sure. He was on another level this season:

Jimmy blows him out in advanced metrics. Much better playmaker and defender, better volume scorer with above league average scoring efficiency. Jimmy has complete attributes to his game that can lead a team as a true #1 option than McHale

Do you take Jimmy over 2006 Wade? His PER, WS and BPM all beat Wade like they do McHale.

Peak Butler > Peak Shaq. 12 BPM go brrrrrrrrr.

Underrated post.

It’s a hard question because McHale had Bird. That’s hard to compare. Give Jimmy Bird and what’s he look like? If his ego could take being number two…?

HeartBreakKid · Post #17 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Thu Jun 2, 2022 11:04 am

SNPA wrote:
Jaivl wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Do you take Jimmy over 2006 Wade? His PER, WS and BPM all beat Wade like they do McHale.

Peak Butler > Peak Shaq. 12 BPM go brrrrrrrrr.

Underrated post.

It’s a hard question because McHale had Bird. That’s hard to compare. Give Jimmy Bird and what’s he look like? If his ego could take being number two…?

He already was a #2 on a team and he had no problems with it.

He is not even an ego drawn or ball dominant player on the Heat..he barely averages more than 20 points.

rate_ · Post #18 » by **rate_** » Thu Jun 2, 2022 11:44 pm

Jaivl wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
rate_ wrote:Jimmy for sure. He was on another level this season:

Jimmy blows him out in advanced metrics. Much better playmaker and defender, better volume scorer with above league average scoring efficiency. Jimmy has complete attributes to his game that can lead a team as a true #1 option than McHale

Do you take Jimmy over 2006 Wade? His PER, WS and BPM all beat Wade like they do McHale.

Peak Butler > Peak Shaq. 12 BPM go brrrrrrrrr.

Even solely using BPM, Shaq was still an 8+ BPM player while the best player on a championship team in the playoffs (BPM was 9+ RS). McHale was nowhere near that in the playoffs, even in his peak season. Apples to oranges comparison. Jimmy's 2022 postseason was still an ATG level run regardless of any comparison made.

MyUniBroDavis · Post #19 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Thu Jun 2, 2022 11:48 pm

rate_ wrote:
Jaivl wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Do you take Jimmy over 2006 Wade? His PER, WS and BPM all beat Wade like they do McHale.

Peak Butler > Peak Shaq. 12 BPM go brrrrrrrrr.

Even solely using BPM, Shaq was still an 8+ BPM player while the best player on a championship team in the playoffs (BPM was 9+ RS). McHale was nowhere near that in the playoffs, even in his peak season. Apples to oranges comparison. Jimmy's 2022 postseason was still an ATG level run regardless of any comparison made.

Bro I love jimmy but don’t use BPM lol

rate_ · Post #20 » by **rate_** » Fri Jun 3, 2022 12:05 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
rate_ wrote:
Jaivl wrote:Peak Butler > Peak Shaq. 12 BPM go brrrrrrrrr.

Even solely using BPM, Shaq was still an 8+ BPM player while the best player on a championship team in the playoffs (BPM was 9+ RS). McHale was nowhere near that in the playoffs, even in his peak season. Apples to oranges comparison. Jimmy's 2022 postseason was still an ATG level run regardless of any comparison made.

Bro I love jimmy but don’t use BPM lol

Oh yeah let’s just ignore the other metrics I used in my comparison along with BPM